Hi Friends,
all autors writes that Mitter/Davis at Targa Florio 1965(2nd place)
had their bergspyder "Kangaroo" with chassis 906-007.
Only, Jürgen Barth in his book "Porsche 904" writes 906-008!!!
Please, explain me what is hier going (sorry for my English).....
Nikola (Belgrade, Serbia)
Porsche 906-007 at Targa Florio, 1965
Started by
Nikola
, Aug 29 2007 18:20
6 replies to this topic
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#2
r.atlos
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Posted 09 September 2007 - 00:24
Nikola, let's see whether we can sort this out. However, I am not sure whom you really mean with "all authors" as there has very little material been published about these cars. With Jürgen having access to the company files I would always be tempted to see him as the prime source, anyhow.
The first appearance of the 904-based Bergspyders was the Targa Florio on 09/05/1965. We have 906-007 as T-car (run by Antonio Pucci and Günther Klass in practice only; for the race they switched to a "normal" 904) and we have 906-008 for Mitter/Davis. Admittedly, Jürgen is not very clear about this in his book but he mentions e.g. that the registration plate S-VP 102 has been the same on both cars as it was only used for testing on open roads.
Next meeting is the 1000km Nürburgring race on 23/05/1965. Mitter/Davis now have a fresh car, 906-003 with race number 21 but it is a complete write-off after a major shunt in practice. For the race, they use 906-008, instead.
Next comes the Rossfeld hillclimb on 13/06/1965. Mitter is testing a real 906-based space frame car (906-004) alongside the 904-based 906-007 but decides to use 906-007 for the race. [Martin Krejci's site mentions 906-010 as T-car but based on photographic evidence this is not correct.]
Follows the Norisring race on 04/07/1965; again, Mitter uses 906-007. Toni Fischhaber runs 906-008 at Trento-Bondone on 11/07/1965. It's he who also crashes 906-008 a fortnight later at Cesane-Sestriere.
The last race where a 904-based Spyder is used is the Gaisberg hillclimb on 19/09/1965 with Herbie Müller at the helm of 904-007 (the only survivor at that time).
If you see period photos you can easily distinguish all three cars: 906-003 and 906-008 have the filler cap protruding through their front bonnet which is not the case of 906-007.
As to other authors, let's look at Olczyck / Mike Morris first: They do not mention anything about 906-003 except "destroyed". They put the entire race history onto 906-007 but caution readers that there is "race result confusion between 906-007 and 906-008"; no details provided as to 906-008 except three Targa pictures out of which two clearly show N° 182, i.e. the Mitter/Davis car. Although race numbers are not visible on the third one I would also be tempted to say that we see Davis at the wheel.
The only other publication I am aware of is that by Yves Kaltenbach from "Automobiles Historiques N°8" from May/June 2001. Yves is apparently not aware that two cars have been present at Madonie, confuses the short life of 906-003 with 906-007, ignores the switch to 906-008 for the 1000km race and considers subsequent 906-007 outings to be a "re-constructed car with the same number" following the Nürburgring crash. He mentions 906-008 vaguely in passing as if it was one of the space frame hillclimbers. Not quite convincing I must admit.
The first appearance of the 904-based Bergspyders was the Targa Florio on 09/05/1965. We have 906-007 as T-car (run by Antonio Pucci and Günther Klass in practice only; for the race they switched to a "normal" 904) and we have 906-008 for Mitter/Davis. Admittedly, Jürgen is not very clear about this in his book but he mentions e.g. that the registration plate S-VP 102 has been the same on both cars as it was only used for testing on open roads.
Next meeting is the 1000km Nürburgring race on 23/05/1965. Mitter/Davis now have a fresh car, 906-003 with race number 21 but it is a complete write-off after a major shunt in practice. For the race, they use 906-008, instead.
Next comes the Rossfeld hillclimb on 13/06/1965. Mitter is testing a real 906-based space frame car (906-004) alongside the 904-based 906-007 but decides to use 906-007 for the race. [Martin Krejci's site mentions 906-010 as T-car but based on photographic evidence this is not correct.]
Follows the Norisring race on 04/07/1965; again, Mitter uses 906-007. Toni Fischhaber runs 906-008 at Trento-Bondone on 11/07/1965. It's he who also crashes 906-008 a fortnight later at Cesane-Sestriere.
The last race where a 904-based Spyder is used is the Gaisberg hillclimb on 19/09/1965 with Herbie Müller at the helm of 904-007 (the only survivor at that time).
If you see period photos you can easily distinguish all three cars: 906-003 and 906-008 have the filler cap protruding through their front bonnet which is not the case of 906-007.
As to other authors, let's look at Olczyck / Mike Morris first: They do not mention anything about 906-003 except "destroyed". They put the entire race history onto 906-007 but caution readers that there is "race result confusion between 906-007 and 906-008"; no details provided as to 906-008 except three Targa pictures out of which two clearly show N° 182, i.e. the Mitter/Davis car. Although race numbers are not visible on the third one I would also be tempted to say that we see Davis at the wheel.
The only other publication I am aware of is that by Yves Kaltenbach from "Automobiles Historiques N°8" from May/June 2001. Yves is apparently not aware that two cars have been present at Madonie, confuses the short life of 906-003 with 906-007, ignores the switch to 906-008 for the 1000km race and considers subsequent 906-007 outings to be a "re-constructed car with the same number" following the Nürburgring crash. He mentions 906-008 vaguely in passing as if it was one of the space frame hillclimbers. Not quite convincing I must admit.
#3
r.atlos
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- 416 posts
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Posted 09 September 2007 - 00:27
Oh, and I reckon I should point out that although these three "Kängeruh" spyders were all based on the 904 frame, they all had 906 series chassis number - so that nobody gets confused with what I said above.
#4
Nikola
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- 142 posts
- Joined: June 05
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Posted 08 October 2007 - 17:05
Quote
Originally posted by r.atlos
Nikola, let's see whether we can sort this out. However, I am not sure whom you really mean with "all authors" as there has very little material been published about these cars. With Jürgen having access to the company files I would always be tempted to see him as the prime source, anyhow.
The first appearance of the 904-based Bergspyders was the Targa Florio on 09/05/1965. We have 906-007 as T-car (run by Antonio Pucci and Günther Klass in practice only; for the race they switched to a "normal" 904) and we have 906-008 for Mitter/Davis. Admittedly, Jürgen is not very clear about this in his book but he mentions e.g. that the registration plate S-VP 102 has been the same on both cars as it was only used for testing on open roads.
Next meeting is the 1000km Nürburgring race on 23/05/1965. Mitter/Davis now have a fresh car, 906-003 with race number 21 but it is a complete write-off after a major shunt in practice. For the race, they use 906-008, instead.
Next comes the Rossfeld hillclimb on 13/06/1965. Mitter is testing a real 906-based space frame car (906-004) alongside the 904-based 906-007 but decides to use 906-007 for the race. [Martin Krejci's site mentions 906-010 as T-car but based on photographic evidence this is not correct.]
Follows the Norisring race on 04/07/1965; again, Mitter uses 906-007. Toni Fischhaber runs 906-008 at Trento-Bondone on 11/07/1965. It's he who also crashes 906-008 a fortnight later at Cesane-Sestriere.
The last race where a 904-based Spyder is used is the Gaisberg hillclimb on 19/09/1965 with Herbie Müller at the helm of 904-007 (the only survivor at that time).
If you see period photos you can easily distinguish all three cars: 906-003 and 906-008 have the filler cap protruding through their front bonnet which is not the case of 906-007.
As to other authors, let's look at Olczyck / Mike Morris first: They do not mention anything about 906-003 except "destroyed". They put the entire race history onto 906-007 but caution readers that there is "race result confusion between 906-007 and 906-008"; no details provided as to 906-008 except three Targa pictures out of which two clearly show N° 182, i.e. the Mitter/Davis car. Although race numbers are not visible on the third one I would also be tempted to say that we see Davis at the wheel.
The only other publication I am aware of is that by Yves Kaltenbach from "Automobiles Historiques N°8" from May/June 2001. Yves is apparently not aware that two cars have been present at Madonie, confuses the short life of 906-003 with 906-007, ignores the switch to 906-008 for the 1000km race and considers subsequent 906-007 outings to be a "re-constructed car with the same number" following the Nürburgring crash. He mentions 906-008 vaguely in passing as if it was one of the space frame hillclimbers. Not quite convincing I must admit.
Dear R.Atlos,
many, many thanks for your so long and very detailed answer! About 906-007 on Targa Florio (with Mitter/
Davis) I red on many internet-sites and in book of Bill Oursler about Porsche Racing Car. I have a picture of
906-007 on 1.000 KM race in Nurburgring (it means Rossfeld was not the first race for 906-007), and the
car had the sam plate-number S-VP 102 as 906-008 on Targa Florio (????). How is it possible? In any case, you are correct, Barth is numero 1 as expert for Porsche Racing Cars....And, also, you are correct, Martin Krejci had a mistake with 906-010 - this car is finished a few days befor Ollon-Villars race.
Best regards,
Nikola
#5
r.atlos
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- 416 posts
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Posted 08 October 2007 - 22:06
Hi Nikola,
I did not realise you had posted here - have just answered your PM. So may be for everybody's sake: In Germany, there are usually so-called "red (licence) plates" used for e.g. a test run or transfer of an un-registered vehicle. [Very similar to to "WW" (or previously simply "W" plates in France)].
Companies or traders usually have a set of them and are obliged by local authorities to keep records of which car had which plate at what date. Something we do not realise from a 2007 perspective, though: Back in the 60s and 70s you could not cross border with that kind of temporary plates. You needed a "carnet de douane" just like for any non-registered racing car and I can assure you - it was a nightmare.
With a normal road registration, all these issues disappeared. You could cross borders without any delays, you could run your car on open roads (certainly quite useful in a place like the Targa) ... And particularly for a producer swapping plates was the easiest thing to do ...
I did not realise you had posted here - have just answered your PM. So may be for everybody's sake: In Germany, there are usually so-called "red (licence) plates" used for e.g. a test run or transfer of an un-registered vehicle. [Very similar to to "WW" (or previously simply "W" plates in France)].
Companies or traders usually have a set of them and are obliged by local authorities to keep records of which car had which plate at what date. Something we do not realise from a 2007 perspective, though: Back in the 60s and 70s you could not cross border with that kind of temporary plates. You needed a "carnet de douane" just like for any non-registered racing car and I can assure you - it was a nightmare.
With a normal road registration, all these issues disappeared. You could cross borders without any delays, you could run your car on open roads (certainly quite useful in a place like the Targa) ... And particularly for a producer swapping plates was the easiest thing to do ...
#6
r.atlos
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- 416 posts
- Joined: June 07
Member
Posted 19 October 2007 - 17:25
Since my earlier postings here and a couple of off-line contacts with Nicola I have tried to substantiate the storyline of Jürgen. There are still some loose ends - but I will come to that at a later stage.
One point that struck me in particular: We all know that one of the "better shaped" Bergspyders, namely 906-004, had been sold to Charlie Kolb late in 1965 and appeared in his hands in Nassau in December 1965.
However, on page 174 in the Olczyck/Morris 904 book I came across a picture of a "dark" Bergspyder with a "white" center stripe very similar to Kolb's car. Date and location are also given as "1965 Nassau"; the car bears N° 86 and you can read on the cockpit side the name of Hans Schenk.
When checking Martin Krejci's result lists, I do find one Hans Schenk with that race number having finished 10th in race #8 ("local heat 2"), Charlie Kolb as winner in Hans' car in race #10 and Hans again as winner in race #14 - always with race number 86. The odd thing about all this: The car is given as a 718 RSK !!
Only in race #15 appears Charlie with race number 3 in his Bergspyder 906-004.
Does anybody know how this fits together ?
One point that struck me in particular: We all know that one of the "better shaped" Bergspyders, namely 906-004, had been sold to Charlie Kolb late in 1965 and appeared in his hands in Nassau in December 1965.
However, on page 174 in the Olczyck/Morris 904 book I came across a picture of a "dark" Bergspyder with a "white" center stripe very similar to Kolb's car. Date and location are also given as "1965 Nassau"; the car bears N° 86 and you can read on the cockpit side the name of Hans Schenk.
When checking Martin Krejci's result lists, I do find one Hans Schenk with that race number having finished 10th in race #8 ("local heat 2"), Charlie Kolb as winner in Hans' car in race #10 and Hans again as winner in race #14 - always with race number 86. The odd thing about all this: The car is given as a 718 RSK !!
Only in race #15 appears Charlie with race number 3 in his Bergspyder 906-004.
Does anybody know how this fits together ?
#7
Towil
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- 51 posts
- Joined: November 06
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Posted 19 October 2007 - 21:22
Hi Chaps,
According to former Australian agent for Porsche Alan Hamilton, 904-007 was purchased by him whilst he was working at the factory in 1965. At the time he had the 8 cylinder engine swapped for an easier to maintain 6 cylinder unit and raced it with some success in Australia in 1966 prior to switching the engine to a newly aquired 906 in 1967.
Cheers,
Todd
According to former Australian agent for Porsche Alan Hamilton, 904-007 was purchased by him whilst he was working at the factory in 1965. At the time he had the 8 cylinder engine swapped for an easier to maintain 6 cylinder unit and raced it with some success in Australia in 1966 prior to switching the engine to a newly aquired 906 in 1967.
Cheers,
Todd
