68 replies to this topic

[Gary Davies]

I think there have only ever been two Italian Formula One drivers of the very top drawer, Giuseppe Farina and Alberto Ascari. That may seem unsurprising but this is a country that has been fanatical about motor racing since Vincenzo Lancia first took to the roads of Europe in a FIAT. Italian marques have had huge success, longer consistently, than makes from any other country. Monza, since 1922, has been an icon among race tracks. Then there’s Enna, Siracusa, Imola, Bari, Mugello, Vallelunga, Modena... I think there are over 60 past and present Italian race tracks. Italy has given us such great motor racing events as the Mille Miglia, the Targa Florio and the Grand Prix of Pescara. Italy invented Formula Junior, a great nursery for young drivers.

Farina and Ascari remain the only two Italian drivers to have lifted a WDC. I hesitate to use the world championship as a benchmark because I have long believed that WDCs are A measure, not THE measure. The fact remains that those two gents last raced over half a century ago and I contend their country has not produced a really big talent since.

Let’s look at a (not complete, I’m sure) list of perhaps their most notable post-war drivers: Alboreto, de Angelis, Baghetti, Bandini, Vittorio Brambilla, Capelli, Castellotti, Teo Fabi, Fisichella, Merzario, Musso, Patrese, Scarfiotti, Taruffi, Trulli, Vaccarella, Villoresi.

Some terrific names in there but none, I would contend, who were really seen as the man to beat on the day. None in the Fangio, Moss, Clark, Prost, Senna, Schumacher league but that’s a very rarified atmosphere.

Perhaps more contentiously, I don’t think any of them - quite - stand shoulder to shoulder with the likes of Andretti (Yes I know he was born in Montona but he learnt his craft in the USA), Brabham, Brooks, Fittipaldi, Gurney, Hill the elder, Hunt, Häkkinen, Jones, Lauda, Mansell, Pironi, Rosberg the elder, Reutemann, Rindt, Stewart, Surtees or Villeneuve, père et fils.

I really felt de Angelis and Alboreto were terrifically fast at times. Fisi and Musso could be fierce competitors on their day but even that quartet are not racers I ever felt contemporaries would look at and think they’ve got to get over them before they see the chequered flag. At times, most of the fellows in the previous paragraph were seen in that light.

Why is this? Countries with far less in the way of motor racing history and/or outright population have produced some very big names. Finland has produced Rosberg, Häkkinen and Räikkönnen. Brazil has produced Senna, Fittipaldi, Piquet and Barrichello (better than his in-the-shadow-of-Schumi years reveal). Rindt and Berger from Austria. Fangio, González and Reutemann from Argentina.

So many Italian drivers, so few giants of the sport.

To finish, a few stats, ex Forix. Of the 782 championship GPs, just 42, or 5.37%, have been won by Italians. Contrast that with the UK, a country of roughly comparable population and with a racing heritage of similar proportions, though of different character, which has 194 GPs wins, or 24.8% of the total.

Italy’s most successful post-war driver, Alberto Ascari, won 13 races which puts him 17th in the ‘wins’ league. Then you have to go all the way down to 38th to find Patrese, with 6 wins.

I don’t know why Italy should apparently be so hugely under-represented. Any thoughts?

As an ironic post script, Italy produced one who some would say was the greatest driver ever. The little chap from Mantua.

[Ross Stonefeld]

If we're talking solely Formula 1 World Championship Grand Prix Racing, I would say there are very few giants period. But I'm placing the argument under giants. But I do accept that Italy hasn't produced as many sort of 'your average grand prix winning driver' as other countries. Then again, has Germany? has France? Has Japan?

[Jerome]

The funny thing is: for about thirty or forty years, the same question could be asked about the Germans. Von Trips was close to the WC... and then died at Monza. After that, there were some candidates, but very seldom one had the idea that a new Top Contender came up. Rolf Stommelen led a GP at Barcelona... then crashed. HJ Stuck had a few chances... but to no avail. Winkelhock? Good driver. No new Von Trips. Stefan Bellof was considered to be very talented... but was lost before he could prove himself. And then, there, there were Michael Schumacher and Heinz Harald Frentzen. Both of them considered very talented, but in the Mercedes C-team they were considered less than Karl Wendlinger...

My answer to the question is: for a big talent to come up, it only has partly to do with infrastructure. Take tennis. Bjorn Borg came from Sweden, which was not exactly a topsport country, and not a typical tennis-country. But he won five Wimbledons, seven French Opens, and was followed by a bunch of Grand Slam winners (Wilander, Johanson, Edberg). Meanwhile, Great-Brittain has spent more on developing tennistalent in their own country than the hundred year production of an African country. And they have one top 20 player: Andy Murray... who is a Scot. And was trained primarily in Spain...

I think Alboreto was the biggest talent that ever came out of Italy. I rate him even higher than Farina, and as high as Ascari. That seems steep, if you look at his start in F1, with the midfield team Tyrrel, and see how he fared... unbelievable. He was just not a great organiser, like Lauda or Schumacher. If he had gone to a team that could have left him to drive (an English team, that is) he would have been a wc several times.

[sterling49]

To some degree, IMHO luck plays a part, or the fickled finger of fate, Bandini was poised for greatness, then Monaco........Scarfiotti, de Angelis were others I think in this vein, Alboreto was not always in the best car. Personally I do not rate Fisi at all, and I think he is amongst the current crop of F1 drivers that have been there a looong time and almost get paid on an "appearance basis" now.........

[Gary Davies]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
If we're talking solely Formula 1 World Championship Grand Prix Racing, I would say there are very few giants period. But I'm placing the argument under giants. But I do accept that Italy hasn't produced as many sort of 'your average grand prix winning driver' as other countries. Then again, has Germany? has France? Has Japan?

Good points, and I did think about including Germany and France as I pondered this whilst walking along behind the lawn mower this afternoon. In the end, I decided to restrict it to one country for simplicity's sake and Italy it was because the sheer depth and breadth of that counry's racing heritage and the long love affair its young men have had with driving quickly made it - just - the best candidate.

[jcbc3]

Originally posted by Vanwall
... Rindt and Berger from Austria....

Call me biased, but didn't you forget someone there?


As to the thread, I agree that on the surface it seems mystifying. But then go look at MotoGP and the number of Italian giants and the lack of Japanese so. If the ownership of a large motorcycle industry should be a deciding factor. If you then say the reason for having giants is tradition go ask yourself where the British drivers are now in MotoGP. I just think you can't say that there should be a certain number of giants from a given country. It just doesn't work that way.

[Gary Davies]

Originally posted by jcbc3


Call me biased, but didn't you forget someone there?

Would you mind awfully repeating the question a little louder.

[jcbc3]

Call me biased, but didn't you forget someone there?

[Gary Davies]

[Bloggsworth]

An excess of passion?

[subh]

I am also biased, and would therefore place Nannini up there with Patrese, de Angelis and Fabi. But I know that Nannini is no giant... And therefore I can’t answer your question.....

[Paolo]

France and Germany are not like Italy...
France had a certain Prost, Germany a certain Schumacher... and the late Bellof was probably in the same league.

As an Italian, I have been thinking about this.
As previously noted, one of the reasons is that "giants" are rare anyway, so it's difficult to correlate their appearance to the number of practitioners in a given country.

Anyway it has been pointed out that Italian and British population and heritage are of similar proportions.
Well, while this may be true, there are also a lot of differences, in motorsport and outside, which might explain a few things.
In Britain it is at least theoretically possible to start pennyless and have a go at racing.
They got Formula Ford, talent scouts, managers who invest in someone's career, sponsors, racecar builders who sometimes need test drivers, "free for all" hillclimbs, good club racing, stock cars...

In Italy this has actually happened a few times (see the Brambilla brothers, Alboreto, Giacomelli) but it is, really, extremely difficult.
Italian motorsport has always had few real promotional categories, and they were never cheap.
There was one exception, the Formula Italia which gave us Alboreto and Giacomelli, for example; but when it disappeared it was replaced by costly championships like Formula Abarth, Formula Alfa Boxer or F3 Italia (a depowered F3), where politics played a very important role.
Decisions about what was legal and what was not on the car and on the track were often (I'm a witness of some) "personally tailored".
Now there is no promotional formula at all, the base step being the unbelievably costly F. Renault.
We do have a very good championship: it is the Trofeo Cadetti which has some small F. Ford like cars; it is full of enthusiasts many of which build the car personally; but it has always been mistreated by the Sport authorithies and relegated to run only in Monza.

Why there is no interest in creating the conditions for a less elitist approach to Sport?
Well, our Federation has run into scandals quite often.
Like it happens with anything of a political nature, in Italy, positions in it have been used to harvest votes in elections and to do some often less than transparent business.
A sport were having good friends in the right places is, uh, quite helpful, is an important lever of power for those who are in charge of decisions.

The problem of a sport that costs a lot from day one, is of course that only rich spoiled kids can afford it.
No mechanic keeping his car in the shop's backyard, here.
It is quite difficult that rich spoiled kids become champions; not impossible, but difficult.
I remember asking a couple guys what fitness program they followed : they laughed at me.
I tried to give them a basic understanding of aero balancement: same.
Their fathers were pumping 30 times my yearly income in their program and they were treating the car as a toy.
Yet, when ALL the participants are of this persuasion, one of them will eventually win... and he'll go on to the next level championship until he runs in international competition and gets butchered.

Why our managers do not invest in young talents?
Well, first in italy there's no "investment mentality", in general.
Our industries routinely refuse employement to PhDs in favour of other candidates because they're "too full of theories" and, wow, three years older.
Our Government funds research to the level of an African country, our Stock Exchange is incredibly costly, unefficient and scandal ridden.
So, it is a wide problem.
Anyway, if a manager makes, after all, an investment, he'll want a return.
problem one: investment is huge. Cannot try guy in F. Ford, must buy him a F. Renault season.
Second: Italians are (a lot) poorer than other europeans. Our wages are less than half of those in Britain, while prices are the same.
So the same amount of money is more difficult to find in Italy than elsewhere.
Second : maybe the kid is good, but his results, as said, will not necessarily reflect this... and all that hardly found money will go down the sewer.
Third, OK now the kid is fast, we have proven it: will someone then sponsor him, will a car industry give him a ride?
No.

I described the situation as it has been for the last 20 years or so, but the main difference has always been the same: in Italy motorsport costs a lot more, in absolute and relative terms, than in the UK, and it is less meritocratic.
So, bar some exceptions, the sort of guys that emerge from it never met the competition they would have met abroad.

[Rockford]

Though I understand your comment regarding Andretti, I think he has a strong Italian sensibility (within the realms of racing) which contributed to his success.

[gio66]

Originally posted by Paolo

Well, first in italy there's no "investment mentality", in general.
Our industries routinely refuse employement to PhDs in favour of other candidates because they're "too full of theories" and, wow, three years older.
Our Government funds research to the level of an African country, our Stock Exchange is incredibly costly, unefficient and scandal ridden.
So, it is a wide problem.
Anyway, if a manager makes, after all, an investment, he'll want a return.
problem one: investment is huge. Cannot try guy in F. Ford, must buy him a F. Renault season.
Second: Italians are (a lot) poorer than other europeans. Our wages are less than half of those in Britain, while prices are the same.
So the same amount of money is more difficult to find in Italy than elsewhere.
Second : maybe the kid is good, but his results, as said, will not necessarily reflect this... and all that hardly found money will go down the sewer.
Third, OK now the kid is fast, we have proven it: will someone then sponsor him, will a car industry give him a ride?
No.

IMHO

Fourth: because in Maranello they are terrorized to the idea that a man can become more popular and important than the Scuderia!
This is what the 95% of italian drivers think!

[Wolf]

Originally posted by jcbc3
Call me biased, but didn't you forget someone there?

OK, Wurz- there it is...

[sterling49]

Originally posted by Wolf


OK, Wurz- there it is...

[Tim Murray]

Originally posted by Vanwall
To finish, a few stats, ex Forix. Of the 782 championship GPs, just 42, or 5.37%, have been won by Italians. Contrast that with the UK, a country of roughly comparable population and with a racing heritage of similar proportions, though of different character, which has 194 GPs wins, or 24.8% of the total.

I'm not sure how Forix arrives at these figures (I'm not a subscriber, so can't check). There have been 780 (not 782) championship races to date (769 of which were called Grands Prix). Of these, UK drivers have won 193 (not 194). I suspect the error here could be due to classing the Brooks/Moss win at Aintree in '57 as two separate UK wins - this has happened on other sites. However, their figure of 42 Italian wins only adds up if they classed Fangio's shared wins with the Luigis Fagioli and Musso as half an Italian win each.


None of this o/t nitpicking alters at all the very valid question raised by Vanwall.

[David Birchall]

Originally posted by Paolo
France and Germany are not like Italy...

I think Paulo is forgetting one little country here; the USA!!

In terms of affordability of racing, accessibility of racing and general accessibility to disposable income the USA whould have produced the most World Champions by far than any other country but they are instead very under represented; so while I like Paolo's argument it certainly fails in this comparison. Also, As an ex Englishman, I question the accessibility to racing for my generation in financial terms--it were tuff in the fifties and sixties!

[MattFoster]

I think that if you look at the total history of the sport there is one Italian name that could be considered the greatest ever

Nuvolari!

I do put some credence in the fact that Ferrari casts such a huge shadow over F1 in Italy it must have some psychological block on many Italian drivers to believing they are bigger than the Scuderia.

[canon1753]

The question is interesting. There was the long season when Enzo refused to hire an Italian. There was the time almost to a man, (1957-1958) the good Italian drivers all died in crashes. I am not sure, but it seems like Italy has produced a number of great karters, many who didn't make it past the early stages of a car racing career.

Unlike France or the UK I don't think there was a dedicated "driver to F1" ladder of support. Nor do I think that many Italian drivers received great press in the English language press. Examples: The appreciation of Riccardo Patrese only came very late in his career, nor do I think Michele Alboreto received the appreciation he deserved either.

I also think there has sometimes been a preconceived notion of "Italian driver= firey, passion over intellect." It was an eyeopener reading Alex Zanardi's autobiography about how shocked Mo Nunn was to find a smooth, unflappable Italian driver.

The final issue would be, as mentioned, the financial and structural problems facing a young Italian talent through the years.

A lot of this would translate to some degree or another to other nations. In the USA, for example, there would be the fact that F1 is not the only goal for a young racer. NASCAR, CART/USAC/IRL/CCWS all have opportunities for the talented driver. There are sponsors and teams that talent search and so on. An American has always needed to race in Europe (Eddie Cheever, Scott Speed) to make a name or put their (career and financial) neck out to go to F1 from a US series at which they race at a high level already. (Michael Andretti fits this).

[jcbc3]

Originally posted by Wolf


OK, Wurz- there it is...

(Why isn't there a way of making these smilies bigger?)

[jcbc3]

Originally posted by Paolo
.........
I described the situation as it has been for the last 20 years or so, but the main difference has always been the same: in Italy motorsport costs a lot more, in absolute and relative terms, than in the UK, and it is less meritocratic.
So, bar some exceptions, the sort of guys that emerge from it never met the competition they would have met abroad.

Agree on most of your points. But as you finish off by saying this is the situation for the last twenty years, it doesn't explain the lack of titans from 1953 to, say, 1990.

I would also take issue with some of your salary/cost statements but we might get a little out of the topic for that. Let me just say that since the general standard of living is close to comparable in England and Italy the available money must also be on an approximately equal level.

[Jerome]

Paolo,

you're from Italy right? Alain Prost, Didier Pironi, Jacques Laffitte, Jabouille: If I am correct, all these drivers were heavily supported by Elf. Alain Prost once told in an interview that the only time he payed money to race was in karts. He won one title, and from then on Elf sponsored him all the way to F1! Prost, quipping: 'I've spent 1500 francs to become a millionaire!'

Has Italy ever had a similar driving program, much like Red Bull is doing now?

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Jerome.Inen
Paolo,

you're from Italy right? Alain Prost, Didier Pironi, Jacques Laffitte, Jabouille: If I am correct, all these drivers were heavily supported by Elf. Alain Prost once told in an interview that the online time he payed money to race was in karts. He won one title, and from then on Elf sponsored him all the way to F1! Prost, quipping: 'I've spent 1500 francs to become a millionaire!'

Has Italy ever had a similar driving program, much like Red Bull is doing now?

There was some state support in the late 1930s, I believe, which accounts for the large numbers of Italians in voiturette racing at that time. None of them were seemingly much good though: but as Il Duce wouldn't let them race in France in 1939 and Britain was a long way away they just ended up racing each other.

There's never been anything like Volant Elf anywhere.

Of course, in the early 60s Italy did have FISA, which produced Baghetti. Then in the 70s, there was Scuderia Everest, which was supposed to produce an Italian World Champion but gave us Giancarlo Martini ....

[Paolo]

Originally posted by jcbc3


Agree on most of your points. But as you finish off by saying this is the situation for the last twenty years, it doesn't explain the lack of titans from 1953 to, say, 1990.

I would also take issue with some of your salary/cost statements but we might get a little out of the topic for that. Let me just say that since the general standard of living is close to comparable in England and Italy the available money must also be on an approximately equal level.

As I said, the problem of high costs and lack of support has always been there.
About standard of living, if I did the same job I do now (research engineer) in Britain, I would earn 3 times more.
I know because I'm constantly trying to get a job abroad...

Average Italian income is probably not far from that of Britain: the difference is in variance.
We have here some extremely rich people, whose fortunes often come from questionable assets, while the average worker does literally not earn enough to pay rent.

People who have money enough will not invest it, as said; standard practice for Italian industry owners is and has always been to avoid going to stock exchange, cut down costs in every possible way and pocket any surplus money.
There are exceptions but not enough.
Anyway the richest people here are those involved in crime and politics (usually both) and they're not the sort that funds racing.

[lustigson]

Originally posted by gio66
Fourth: because in Maranello they are terrorized to the idea that a man can become more popular and important than the Scuderia!

Spot on.

[jcbc3]

Originally posted by Paolo


As I said, the problem of high costs and lack of support has always been there.
About standard of living, if I did the same job I do now (research engineer) in Britain, I would earn 3 times more.
I know because I'm constantly trying to get a job abroad...

Have you taken into account that taxes are lower in Italy? Or that a pint of beer/bottle of wine may be cheaper in Italy? That heating e.g. is MUCH cheaper than in England?

Originally posted by Paolo
Average Italian income is probably not far from that of Britain: the difference is in variance.
We have here some extremely rich people, whose fortunes often come from questionable assets, while the average worker does literally not earn enough to pay rent.

In an effort to alienate bot Italians and English here, I am afraid you are under estimating the amount of poverty in England. I think there as many 'poor' people in England as in Italy.

Originally posted by Paolo
People who have money enough will not invest it, as said; standard practice for Italian industry owners is and has always been to avoid going to stock exchange, cut down costs in every possible way and pocket any surplus money.

There are exceptions but not enough.

errrr, that's called capitalism. I think you'll find that to be universal.

Originally posted by Paolo
Anyway the richest people here are those involved in crime and politics (usually both) and they're not the sort that funds racing.

If I was a 'rich' Italian I would find this statement offensive. But I'm not, so you are free to propogate your political agenda as far as I am concerned. But the second part of your statement about who invest in motorsport, I think we have a thread about this very subject. Maby shady characters has through the times invested in motorsport. Can't see why that would be different in Italy.

[Kilted Wanderer]

Originally posted by gio66


IMHO

Fourth: because in Maranello they are terrorized to the idea that a man can become more popular and important than the Scuderia!
This is what the 95% of italian drivers think!

Agreed, it's all Enzo's fault - when you win, it's because of the car - when you lose it's the driver to blame.....

Not a great incentive.....

[Jerome]

Originally posted by jcbc3


Have you taken into account that taxes are lower in Italy? Or that a pint of beer/bottle of wine may be cheaper in Italy? That heating e.g. is MUCH cheaper than in England?



In an effort to alienate bot Italians and English here, I am afraid you are under estimating the amount of poverty in England. I think there as many 'poor' people in England as in Italy.



errrr, that's called capitalism. I think you'll find that to be universal.




If I was a 'rich' Italian I would find this statement offensive. But I'm not, so you are free to propogate your political agenda as far as I am concerned. But the second part of your statement about who invest in motorsport, I think we have a thread about this very subject. Maby shady characters has through the times invested in motorsport. Can't see why that would be different in Italy.

Think of it what you will, but there's one fact: Italian boys and girls live at home with their parents much longer than in other countries. In other words: they leave home much later. Official reason: the cost of living independently in Italy is much more expensive than, say, in the Netherlands. It could also be antropological, or psychological more than financial, but the fact remains that Italian people SAY that it's very expensive to live in Italy in your own home.

[Paolo]

Originally posted by Jerome.Inen


Think of it what you will, but there's one fact: Italian boys and girls live at home with their parents much longer than in other countries. In other words: they leave home much later. Official reason: the cost of living independently in Italy is much more expensive than, say, in the Netherlands. It could also be antropological, or psychological more than financial, but the fact remains that Italian people SAY that it's very expensive to live in Italy in your own home.

Yes, it's the money.

Average salary : 1000 Euro
Average rent (1-2 rooms) : 1000 Euro

I play the mad scientist for the princely sum of 1150 Euro a month.
Many colleagues earn less.
Fuel is 1.4 Euro a liter, sausages are 7 euro Kg, grapefruit is 2 Euro Kg.
Taxes usually eat up more than 60% of income.
I've been quite a lot of time in Germany and it costed like Italy (actually housing costed less) , while waiters were making 1500 Euro a month and engineers were easily over 3000.


Anyway I feel the replies about this went a bit out of hand, so I will not write on the topic anymore.

[HDonaldCapps]

Once more I sense that another thread has drifted off into the La-La Land that seems to be the distinguishing characteristic of what too often is the British Nostalgia and Bullshit Forum.

[Rob Miller]

Eugenio Castellotti showed the potential to mature into a top drawer driver. His 1956 season alongside Fangio both in F1 and sportscars was very promising.

[David Birchall]

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
Once more I sense that another thread has drifted off into the La-La Land that seems to be the distinguishing characteristic of what too often is the British Nostalgia and Bullshit Forum.

Don, You may be correct with regards to some of the threads (atlasf1 is now based in England....), however, I have scanned this thread several times and have seen nothing to confirm your assertion. Perhaps if you added something positive....?

[wolf sun]

Interestingly, this thread seems to cause some members to slightly lose their temper, so apparently it is a hot topic indeed...;)

Back to the question though - I think to a certain point factors like economical structures, scholarship schemes, media awareness, sociological matters, etc. all come into play. However, when it comes to true greatness in a certain field - be that Arts, Sports, or whatever - Nationality has, to my mind, absolutely nothing to do with it, that is down to pure coincidence.
Admittedly, the chances of being able to become a professional racing driver are undoubtedly higher in some countries (ie those with comparatively strong economies - as motor sport is, of course, an extremely expensive indulgence) than in others, making it more likely that the next "Giant" will hail from the UK, the US, France, etc. than, say Angola.
The final step though, the bit that separates the great from the merely good, is, in my book, in no way related to origin of birth.

[HDonaldCapps]

Originally posted by David Birchall
Don, You may be correct with regards to some of the threads (atlasf1 is now based in England....), however, I have scanned this thread several times and have seen nothing to confirm your assertion. Perhaps if you added something positive....?

David, I am positive that TNF can now be properly re-named The British Nostalgia and Bullshit Forum. Okay, simply The British Nostalgia Forum to prevent ruffling any more feathers than necessary.

If being based in England is the excuse or explanation, please note that when the moderator was an American that TNF attempted to strike a balance and encourage a variety of topics in motor racing rather than favor those of one country as seems to be the trend of some years now.

Indeed, if this forum's being based in England is an excuse for the Anglo-centric discussion, then it might not be too much of a -- I started to write "intellectual" but caught myself -- leap to perhaps consider why the Italians have never quite managed to equal the number of British 'greats' of recent decades -- that formula one is (was?) a British preserve with the resulting domination of the British for many years. I am not sure of how valid this is today since I pay relatively little attention to formula one and its goings-on, but there seems to be some validity to this for at least a few of the Italians, even if they would not necessarily have been 'giants' -- whatever that might be.

Of course, this thread assumes that formula one is the be-all-end-all in racing.

[wolf sun]

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps

Of course, this thread assumes that formula one is the be-all-end-all in racing.

Does it? Where?

Admittedly, this thread hasn´t touched on the subject of Rallying so far, but otherwise, taking into account that Italy is a part of Europe, and that F1 forms an enormous part of Europe´s motor racing heritage, it seems only natural that the much of the focus would be on Grand Prix racing, doesn´t it?

[KWSN - DSM]

The UK is over represented due to the historical fact of F1 evolving into a battle between the Manufactures and the kit-car builders. What Enzo Ferrari called Garagistata's (seppling).

Except for the UK, which is the 'odd country out' all countries have had their number of F1 drivers, succeed or not based on talent, and for a very very few countries a government backed ladder to F1. Germany did not have anyone until Schumacher, since the German drivers did not have the talent. Likewise for Spain.

No Italians, cause they just did not have "it".

Simple as that.

[dretceterini]

There are a fiar number of Italians that did quite well in the smaller displacement sports car classes.

[KWSN - DSM]

Originally posted by dretceterini
There are a fiar number of Italians that did quite well in the smaller displacement sports car classes.

There are a fair number of Danes who did very well in various classes under F1. But no winning or even remotely good Danish F1 drivers.

Success in lower classes does not garuantee anything in F1.

[ex Rhodie racer]

I wonder what is being discussed here. The ability of a particular national mentality to succeeed in motorsport, or the opportunities presented within a given state.
If the former, then let us not forget, Fangio may well have been born in Argentine, but he was the product of Italian parents. If anything, it must have been infinitely more difficult for JMF to succeed from his parents adopted country, as WC racing was based in Europe. And as someone else mentioned, what about Nuvolari? They don´t come much better than him.
Also, if we take all forms of motorsport into consideration, Italy has produced the largest number of great motorcycle racers, Ago and Rossi just to name two of the standouts.
Personally, I think the Italian temperament is ideally suited to motorsport. Above all IMO, it´s a sport that requires passion, a quality not lacking in Italians.
Bloggsworth, I think you´re confusing passion with a hot head. The two don´t always equate.

[Jerome]

The remark about Italian giants in bikes opposed to carracing is very true. The great Nuvolari, by the way, the greatest Italian driver EVER, started on bikes by the way.

Which brings us back to money. Isn't it true that biking is much, much cheaper for the beginning racer? Italy has AND a tradition for fast beautifull bikes, and racing isn't that expensive (compared to cars, that is).

So Paolo is perhaps right: money is perhaps the biggest equation (which it is everywhere, but perhaps in Italy even more so).

[ex Rhodie racer]

I think it´s a misconception that bike racing is cheaper than cars when starting out. One thing that is certain though, is that there is far more sponsorship money available for 4 wheel racing, thanks to the size of the automotive industry. The motorcycle industry is tiny by comparison.
It is an accepted fact though, that of all the national federations, the Italian M/C federation invests far more at grass roots level than everyone else, with the possible exception of Spain. So maybe the answer lies in this area. Just look at the success the Germans had when they invested in their young up and coming talent. It can´t be a coincident that drivers of the caliber of MS, HHF and KW all suddenly appeared at the same time.

[KWSN - DSM]

Is this thread not about F1 drivers?

[scags]

Fangio may have been a 2nd generation Argentinian, but the local auto club, backed by by Juan Peron, bought the cars that started Gonzales' and Fangio's European careers.

[David Birchall]

Originally posted by scags
Fangio may have been a 2nd generation Argentinian, but the local auto club, backed by by Juan Peron, bought the cars that started Gonzales' and Fangio's European careers.

And Phil Hill only got into serious racing after an inheritance. Didn't the antipodeans have help from the clubs and local gvmts as well?

[wolf sun]

I don´t doubt that certain nations provide or have provided more opportunities for talented drivers to prove themselves (in differing disciplines of motorsport, not F1 exclusively) than others, therefore increasing the potential number of "giants". If the thread title were "Why hasn´t Albania produced more Sportscar greats?" for example, that point would be extremely valid (no irony here).
Now, taking into account that any motorized sport has a tendency to consume vast amounts of money, those who rise to the very top will almost certainly hail from a country with a comparatively healthy economy, for obvious reasons.
IMHO out of these countries, whoever becomes a "giant" in any discipline of motorsport is down more to coincidence than anything else.

[Arturo Pereira]

I would add that, imo, many Italian drivers that had chances to win a WDC driving for Ferrari, were deprived of this because of team inside politics. Even if not Italian, I would say John Surtees could give a very well authorized opinion about this subject. Probably Doug could put more light on this

As for argentine drivers, nor even Reutemann and Gonzalez came close to Fangio´s talent. It could be interesting to see how far Onofre Marimón could have gone if it was not for his tragic death in 1954 though

[ex Rhodie racer]

How much truth is there in the story that Enzo deliberately avoided employing Italian drivers after the Bandini accident? I heard/read he was afraid that public opinion in Italy would turn against him, in the event of another Italian driver losing his life at the wheel of a Ferrari.

[KWSN - DSM]

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer
How much truth is there in the story that Enzo deliberately avoided employing Italian drivers after the Bandini accident? I heard/read he was afraid that public opinion in Italy would turn against him, in the event of another Italian driver losing his life at the wheel of a Ferrari.

No truth at all.

Just look at thier lineups afterwards.

[flat-16]

Arturo makes an interesting point regarding politics. When you consider that the Vatican intervened (after the death of Ascari?), making it impossible for Italian drivers in the fifties to be offered factory-backed drives, I wonder if a ‘culture’ was promoted in Italy, where drivers took it as read that they would never get a factory drive.

When you consider that Italy has produced what is, a very high proportion of innovators on the engineering side, you would’ve thought there’d be more drivers to accompany the cars. The bloke in the pointy hat could have something to answer for here...

BTW – Don, the ‘Anglo-centric’ nature of this forum is due to the fact that, for whatever reasons, promotional or otherwise, a high proportion of members here come from the UK. Trust me when I say that I see the exact opposite at forums where the majority of members are from the US… You start a thread on something relating to the UK and it drops off the page without a hit… If you think the forum needs more investigative threads relating to US events, then you need to attract more US members – simple as that, no prejudice at work.

FWIW, this place has raised my awareness of the 'lesser documented' US racing scenes more than any magazine I’ve ever read in all my years (Jerry and Henry probably have something to do with this )


Justin