110 replies to this topic

[sandy]

Can anyone provide the correct cc size of the Maybach engine of the Maybach Special as driven by Stan Jones in the 50's? I have seen it stated as 4640cc and 3790cc. Were there two engines? Perhaps asking for too much but can anyone also state the type of German tracked vehicle it (they) came from?

[Ray Bell]

It wouldn't have been over 4.5 litres because it had the supercharger removed for the 1951 Woodside race in which cars had to comply with International Formula 1. Or maybe that was 1952?

It was mooted that the AGP would be held under F1 rules that year and this was good enough reason to ditch the supercharger.

Hence it must not have been over 4.5 litres. Right?

I've read plenty of times that the engines came from scout cars or armoured cars.

[GIGLEUX]

From Australian Motor Racing 1950-51: 6 cyl 90*110 4200cc.

[kaydee]

I’ve checked through some old race programs and have found the Maybach listed with three different engine capacities –

Driven by Stan Jones -
Port Wakefield - Jan ’53 - 4300cc
Fishermans Bend - Oct ’54 - 4300cc
Albert Park - Mar ’55 - 3800cc
Port Wakefield - Oct ’55 - 3800cc

Driven by Ern Seeliger -
Bathurst - Oct ’58 - 4600cc
Fishermans Bend - Oct ’58 - 4600cc
Albert Park - Nov ’58 - 4600cc

[Ray Bell]

By 1958 it had the Corvette engine...


4639cc IIRC.

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by kaydee
I’ve checked through some old race programs and have found the Maybach listed with three different engine capacities –

Driven by Stan Jones -
Port Wakefield - Jan ’53 - 4300cc
Fishermans Bend - Oct ’54 - 4300cc
Albert Park - Mar ’55 - 3800cc
Port Wakefield - Oct ’55 - 3800cc

Driven by Ern Seeliger -
Bathurst - Oct ’58 - 4600cc
Fishermans Bend - Oct ’58 - 4600cc
Albert Park - Nov ’58 - 4600cc

Hi kaydee

Any chance you'd be willing to scan those entry lists? I'm doing a bit of work on this period of Australian racing at the moment and the entry lists would be a great help.

Many thanks

Allen

[GIGLEUX]

In 3800cc form the Maybach engine had bore and stroke of 90*100.

[uechtel]

To confirm this, Maybach 6 cylinder engines from the thirties were produced in the following dimensions:

Type W6 1931-34: 94 mm x 168 mm = 6995 cc
Type DSH 1934-37: 100 mm x 110 mm = 5184 cc
Type SW 1935-36: 90 mm x 90 mm = 3435 cc
Type SW 1936-39: 90 mm x 100 mm = 3817 cc (3791 cc for the tax)
Type SW 1939-41: 90 mm x 110 mm = 4197 cc (4170 cc for the tax)

Source Werner Oswald: "Deutsche Autos 1920 - 1945"

[sandy]

Thanks for the replies. The Ultimatecarpage site says that after completing Maybach 1, Chas. Dean went on to make two more specials, one with a similar Maybach engine, while the www.drive.com.au site says that the engine was originally a 3.8 but went on to become a s/c 4.2.

If I can determine what Maybach engine was actually used then perhaps I can pinpoint the types of German army Afrika Corps vehicles that used this engine and from there go on to see if any were continued to be produced either by the post war German army or by the Soviets and/or East European communist armies which apparently manufactured slavish copies of some German vehicle types. (There are some German forums that list all of the models of light armoured vehicles made by the Germans in the war and there is an incredible diversity of same).

The end result may be that there are many Maybach (or copies of) engines of the type used to power the Maybach Special and that these are readily available.

[kaydee]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Hi kaydee

Any chance you'd be willing to scan those entry lists? I'm doing a bit of work on this period of Australian racing at the moment and the entry lists would be a great help.

Many thanks

Allen

Hi Allen,
Yes, e-mail or PM me - if you can be specific re years, meetings or categories I'll see what I can do.
Kevin

[uechtel]

Originally posted by sandy
[B]Thanks for the replies. The Ultimatecarpage site says that after completing Maybach 1, Chas. Dean went on to make two more specials, one with a similar Maybach engine, while the www.drive.com.au site says that the engine was originally a 3.8 but went on to become a s/c 4.2.

To my understanding the SW engines always used the same block with only increased stroke over the years to compensate for less fuel quality in Germany in the final pre-war years. Thus I think all it would have needed for such a conversion was basically a different crankshaft.

If I can determine what Maybach engine was actually used then perhaps I can pinpoint the types of German army Afrika Corps vehicles that used this engine

Again according to Oswald (and to my surprise as I would have expected Diesel engines for this purpose) the Maybachs were standard engines for a number of light tank and halftracks in quite variety. He gives even more capacity variations for this, from 3.5 l up to 6.8 l.

and from there go on to see if any were continued to be produced either by the post war German army

come on, now you are joking.

or by the Soviets and/or East European communist armies which apparently manufactured slavish copies of some German vehicle types.

To write "Maybach" on the cylinder head and sell them to Australia for 1946?

I rather prefer the version of an abandoned military vehicle in the African desert. Sounds more logical. Don´t think they were collected and exported to Australian scrapyards in greater numbers, but who knows?

[sandy]

I must attempt to write more clearly. I was not suggesting that the Maybach Special was powered by anything else than that engine out of the wartime Afrika Corps vehicle but was attempting to find out if there were engines of that type produced after the war in post war vehicles because if so perhaps there are thousands of the bloody things lying around in junkyards etc., which would allow quirky enthusiasts such as myself to acquire a couple and perhaps endeavour to emulate Mr. Dean's Repco efforts.

[uechtel]

Ok. Don´t know about post war Maybach company history other that it was incorporated into the Daimler-Benz AG in 1960, but by searching the web I found this interesting page:

http://www.maybach.de/motorsport.htm

And on the same site also some information about the engines:

http://www.maybach.d...tzfahrzeuge.htm

of particular interest for you may be the passage "Even after the war so-called 'depot' engines were used by the industry for the resurrection". Plus scrolling down the page the picture of a Horch lorry of East German production with Maybach engine.

[aldo]

When at the Goodwood Revival, last week-end, a very kind lady handed out a neat homemade leaflet with the history of the 1946 Maybach Special MkI by Charles Dean, who -according to the leaflet - was "one of the driving forces behind the Repco Company".
The engine was taken off a Bussing NAG Wehrmacht halftrack armoured scout car shipped from North Africa to Australia for techical exhamination. The engine was a petrol 3.8 litre, 6 cyl OHC, dry sump lubrification. The Special was built on a two-rail chassis, coupled to a Fiat 525 gearbox and fitted with 6 Amal carbs. The body was adapted from a bomber auxiliary fuel tank.
After 1946, the engine was supercharged and then replaced with "a 4.2 litre variant". (No mention if it was a similar engine or something totally different).
The most successful driver was Stan Jones (the father of Alan). The car was raced until 1954, when Jones won the NZ GP at Ardmore and the Bathurst 100.
For additional info, one may contact the custodian Bob Harborow, e-mail: cemtec@bigpond.net.au

[Allen Brown]

This is the first Maybach of course, there being two further cars built as developments of the Mk I. The second was destroyed and the third still exists. According to John Blanden's book, Bob Harborow's car was built in the late 1960s by Jack McDonald using the remaining parts from when the Mk I was developed into the Mk II.

Allen

[Ray Bell]

There's no way any bomber auxilliary tank was used to build Maybach I's body...

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by aldo
The car was raced until 1954, when Jones won the NZ GP at Ardmore and the Bathurst 100

It was changed from MkI to MkII between Ardmore and Bathurst

[sandy]

The Victorian Historic Racing Register (Club Patron: Sir Jack Brabham O.B.E.) in a recent press release said this..."Both the Maybach Mk1 and Maybach Mk2 ...are expected to appear at the Shannons Phillip Island Classic. Bob Harborow's original Mk1 model...has been restored to its original specification... . Meanwhile the Maybach Mk2, which was wrecked...in the 1954 Australian Grand Prix, is nearing the end of an exacting re-creation by former Holden Dealer Team boss and VHRR member John Sheppard".

This reminds me of that famous line, "MG made 33 K3s and only 38 remain". The simple solution is to phone John Shepherd and ask as to what the story is re Maybach engines and I will do that tomorrow morning but if anyone knows anything about there being 2 Maybach engines, in the meantime, it would be interesting to know what is what.

Maybach Mk3 will surely remain Chevrolet V8 powered, one would think. I recall the report in Australian Motor Sport on the 1955 Australian Grand Prix saying that..."the Maybach finally burst it's gallant engine...(then describing, [I write this from 53 years ago memory], details of a total mechanical catastrophe) and retired", inferring that the self destruction of the Maybach engine was pretty much irrepairable, which resulted of course in the installation of the Chevy V8.

So we have an Africa Korps Maybach engine out of the Western Desert, installed in a racing special in the late 40's, terminally broken in 1955, a Maybach engine in a restored Mk1 and a Maybach engine in a recreated Mk2 - well I'm sure there is a remarkable outcome to it all.

[Allen Brown]

There's a fine line between 'restored' and 'recreated'. The Mk 1 required more than just polish of course. There might have been one or two bits that needed to be fabricated afresh.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by sandy
.....So we have an Africa Korps Maybach engine out of the Western Desert, installed in a racing special in the late 40's, terminally broken in 1955, a Maybach engine in a restored Mk1 and a Maybach engine in a recreated Mk2 - well I'm sure there is a remarkable outcome to it all.

I recall reading, and I think it was in AMS pre-1951, that they had brought in several of these engines... presumably after they decided to go racing with the first (Army imported) model.

They would not have been hard to find or purchase in those early pre-war years...

[kaydee]

Ray, you are correct in saying that Charlie Dean had several Maybach engines at his disposal.

Phil Irving in his autobiography on page 457 writes about Charlie Dean's intention after the Maybach’s crash at Southport in '54 to build a new car (Maybach 3) - “still using one of his three Maybach engines.”

Later, on page 459, Phil writes, - “Charlie had already decided (he) would use the 3.8 litre engine instead of one of the 4.3 litre models, rated by the makers at 200 horsepower at 2,000 rpm and built in Germany to last forever.”

I'm not sure whether Phil's count of three Maybach engines includes the one crashed at Southport but it does confirm that there were at least three engines and that one was 3.8 litre version and two were 4.3 litre.

[cosworth bdg]

Photos of Maybach 2

[hiteknz]

I have been following this thread with interest and have a question,when the Harborow car was at Pukekohe for a
Historic meeting ,I seem to remember seeing the block had been repaired in the same manner as was described to me by one of my former employers who was present when it was repaired before the 1954 NZIGP,can some one tell if this is correct or had the other blocks been repaired in a similar fashion,thanks Bob

[cosworth bdg]

[cosworth bdg]

I belive you will find the cylinder block was repaired by the Repco irontite screwed in plug metod of the era......................

[hiteknz]

No I believe it had a plate screwed over the hole in the crankcase,is what I was told and what is written in reports

[hiteknz]

To Quote

Then began an epic struggle to get the Maybach ready for the big race. Dean (who was on the spot) phoned Australia for parts. They could not be got to Auckland in time. Nothing daunted, the crew set about scouring the city for makeshifts. They got a GMC con-rod, a machine shop made up a new cylinder-liner, patches were fabricated for the crankcase. All Friday afternoon and night the crew toiled in Shorter's garage while Jones slept in preparation for the race he might not run.

[ken devine]

Did Maybach 3 become Maybach 4 when it received the Corvette engine?the car was wrecked at phillip
island several years ago and completly rebuilt by Cliff Byfield ,does this make it Maybach 5 or a replica?
it ran at Caversham last week and looked and sounded perfect.

[sandy]

Originally posted by ken devine
[B]Did Maybach 3 become Maybach 4 when it received the Corvette engine?the car was wrecked at phillip
island several years ago and completly rebuilt by Cliff Byfield ,does this make it Maybach 5 or a replica?
/B]

Re-engine Mk5 with the 3rd Maybach engine, to replicate Mk3 and this could be Mk6.

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
By 1958 it had the Corvette engine...


4639cc IIRC.

The original Corvette engine was 265ci which is about 4.3 litres. A 283ci was introduced in 1957 which would be about the 4639cc that you mention so that makes sense.

[Allen Brown]

PS Anyone know the capacities of the Corvette engine sin the Tornado and in Curly Brydon's Ferrari?

[hiteknz]

Allen
1960 NZIGP program has it as 4640cc

[hiteknz]

for the Tornado sorry

[Allen Brown]

thanks - and I've just noticed that the 1958 Aussie GP entry list gives the Ferrari-Corvette as 4686cc.

[Henk Vasmel]

If the original Maybach Engine was 90*100, the capacity must have been 3817cc.
The fiscal capacity that was used in Germany, and has been mentioned before, was almost the same as the real capacity, except for the fact that where in the original formula the factor PI/4 is used, the Germans used 0.78. (actually it should be 0.78539816). If you don't have a calculator, using the correct value for PI is very difficult, and that is no doubt the source of many problems about exact capacities. And that is even before we start talking about overbores and things like that.

For the 4.3 Litre Maybach, I find the capacity of 4294cc in "The Official 50-race History of the Australian Grand Prix" in 1954. I arrive at this number with a stroke of 112.5 and the same bore of 90. This is a possibility, but there are probably more combinations possible.

The engine sizes for the Corvette engines com from "The Encyclopedia of American Cars" (Editors of Consumer Guide)
In 1958, the Maybach had a Corvette engine, in the entry list it says (same book) 4600cc, which probably means 4.6 Litre. There is a specification sidebar where that engine is given as 95.25*76.2=4342cc.
These bore and stroke values give 4344cc in my Excel. 76.2 mm is 3 inch, so I believe that. 95.25mm is 3 3/4 inch, so I believe that too. These are also the values for the '57 Corvettte.

The slightly larger 4.6 engine has a 3.88 inch bore. This is probably 3 7/8 or 3.875. The 3.88 gives a capacity of 4650cc, which is indeed too large. The 3.875 gives 4638cc, which I have seen before. The 4640 is not uncommon too, but it appears that 4638 would be the correct size for this engine, which of course has been used in a multitude of racing cars, a lot of them American.

[David McKinney]

The most common metric expression of Corvette engine size I have seen is 4674cc
Discrepancies no doubt arise from more or less accurate conversions of the measurements from inches

[onelung]

Web-scratching yields the following image of a Maybach HL42 engine, 4.2 litres.

Among the other contemporary 6 cyl. Maybach engines were: NL38, 3.8 litres; HL62, 6.191 litres.
The latter would have likely(?) been way too heavy to use in a racing car expected to corner reasonably well.
And for an idea of the sort of devices the engines propelled in their initial guise .....

The half track vehicle not in Afrika Corps service, as you will have noticed!

[Catalina Park]

According to the AGP book the capacity for the Maybach in the 54 AGP was 4294cc.

Here is a photo from the book taken after the crash (from the AGP book/ Diana Gaze collection)

[onelung]

I wonder if a boring bar could yield an extra 90 odd cc's .. ?

[Catalina Park]

Originally posted by onelung
I wonder if a boring bar could yield an extra 90 odd cc's .. ?

I wonder if the Repco team could get their hands on a boring bar and oversize pistons?

[onelung]

I'd have thought that possibility more than likely .. no?
I trust we are asking more than simply rhetorical questions in this thread...

[Catalina Park]

I am always amazed at the things that the Repco companies could do in the 50s and 60s. It makes me sad to look at what they are today.

Does anyone else think that the Maybach engine looks a little bit BMW? (or is just me)

[fines]

Originally posted by onelung
I wonder if a boring bar could yield an extra 90 odd cc's .. ?

Well, simple facts:

6 cylinders, bore 90 mm, stroke 110 mm, displacement 4199cc
6 cylinders, bore 91 mm, stroke 110 mm, displacement 4293cc

[D-Type]

In addition to variations in pi, there were also variations in the standard inch. The UK, USA and Canada had different conversions. The Canadian was 25.4 mm while the US and British conversions were several decimal places longer. In 1958 common sense prevailed and the Canadian standard was adopted but it would have taken a few years for the message to filter down and text books get changed.
I'm too lazy to search out the different values or the date.

[fines]

Yes, I recall that, but the difference was VERY small, about 0.000005 mm iirc...

[cosworth bdg]

Originally posted by Catalina Park
I am always amazed at the things that the Repco companies could do in the 50s and 60s. It makes me sad to look at what they are today. How very right you are.

Does anyone else think that the Maybach engine looks a little bit BMW? (or is just me)

I can tell you it is not just yourself in beliving it is very much like a BMW...

[cosworth bdg]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Catalina Park
[B]I am always amazed at the things that the Repco companies could do in the 50s and 60s. It makes me sad to look at what they are today. Yes where is that expertise today, all but disapeared , very sad indeed..........

[Ray Bell]

A former owner of Maybach 3 points out the following:

The car was re-engined, and at the same time had a new chassis built. Does this make it Maybach 4 (as previously asked)?

There is also some correspondence he had relating to the original engine capacity that holds interest. It seems that GM made 100 pre-production engines of a larger size (I would think we're talking 283s in lieu of 265s here) for 'assessment' by motor sporting people and the Maybach (and the Tornado?) had these.

[David Shaw]

You're probably right there Ray, as the official results for the 1958 Melbourne Grand Prix lists the Tornado as 4600cc.

[Ray Bell]

Actually, the claim is that the special engines were 327s...

Somehow I'm doubting this. The 283 came out in 1957, and this is the size on the entry forms for these cars. The 327 wasn't released until 1962, four years after the Bathurst AGP which saw these engines out in strength.

A pilot run of 100 engines for 'evaluation' up to a year before production I could accept. Not three or four years. It's all a load of the proverbial dreamed up by a car owner intent on pulling the wool over the CAMS' eyes. And it worked. A car owner prior to the one with whom I'm in contact, I'll hasten to add, as he bought the car with its CAMS log book certifying the 327 as 'original'.

The former owner referred to pointed out that the reputed horsepower of the Maybach in 1958 was 280. Dyno sheets in his time showed over 400.