112 replies to this topic

[Trebor152]

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/62078

What Next???

[Ved]

I thought that whatever the Italian stewards cooked up would at least be delayed until Sunday morning, so as to prevent a successful appeal, however, it looks like they don't want McLaren to participate at all this weekend.

[JForce]

From the sounds of it a simple stuff up, rather than them trying to hide anything.

Someone simply didn't know the rules, or forgot about the rules.

Seems it should have been crash tested, but hadn't been.

An illegal car in Hungary? DQ for both cars?

[JForce]

Originally posted by Ved
I thought that whatever the Italian stewards cooked up would at least be delayed until Sunday morning, so as to prevent a successful appeal, however, it looks like they don't want McLaren to participate at all this weekend.

You can't "cook up" the fact that a team raced something that should have been crash tested

Should we just let Spyker run the B-car without crash testing it?

[Trebor152]

I wouldnt be too suprised if Ferrari bought this to the Stewards attention. Dont they have a habbit of doing this sort of thing at Monza?

Im thinking of a grumble at Michelin a few years back, Alonso's penalty last year etc.

[Orin]

The stewards decision at Hungary was a bit silly. It is better for the FIA to add something to it so they can go: "Ah, but..."

From the article:-

Although the new gearbox did not require an altered crash structure from the one already approved by the FIA to be put in place, it is understood McLaren's actions could have breached article 16.1.2 of Formula One's technical regulations.

The rules state: "Any significant modification introduced into any of the structures tested shall require that part to pass a further test."

That says to me that McLaren would have thought that, having not changed the crash structure whatsoever, no retest was necessary. It doesn't seem an unreasonable position. :

EDIT: sorry, worse than I thought - it's the Italian race stewards, not the FIA. More Ferrari politicking.

[Teez]

Originally posted by Ved
I thought that whatever the Italian stewards cooked up

What do the Italian stewards have to do with McLaren's inability or unwillingness to follow the rules?

it looks like [the Italian stewards] don't want McLaren to participate at all this weekend.

If McLaren don't follow the rules, why should they be allowed to?

[gerry nassar]

Originally posted by JForce
From the sounds of it a simple stuff up, rather than them trying to hide anything.

Someone simply didn't know the rules, or forgot about the rules.

Seems it should have been crash tested, but hadn't been.

An illegal car in Hungary? DQ for both cars?

I'd see this as more a case where the team would lose points but not the drivers - much like Mika Hakkinen not losing his points in Austria 2000. Funny thing is - Mclaren have already lost their Hungary constructors points!!

I dont think much of an issue should be made about it anyway.

[Ilaya]

No biggie imo, they didn't hide the fact and the new gearbox passed the test afterwards anyway.
McLaren could be reprimanded but that's it I think.

Still strange that a team with a such a perfectionistic, tight-ass micro-manager as RD makes sloppy mistakes like this.

I wouldnt be too suprised if Ferrari bought this to the Stewards attention

Freudian slip??

[Gilles4Ever]

they will take away their constructors points, maybe dock a few more, that will effectively hand the WCC to Ferrari so that when Mclaren have their WCC points taken away for the Stepneygate affair it wont make any difference.

[Tomecek]

Originally posted by Ved
it looks like they don't want McLaren to participate at all this weekend.

It has nothing to do with Italian Grand Prix.

[Ross Stonefeld]

How did McLaren get through Hungary racing a part that hadn't been fully approved by the FIA?

[Timstr11]

This must be the absolute 'annus horribilis' for McLaren.

[Timstr11]

Originally posted by Orin
The stewards decision at Hungary was a bit silly. It is better for the FIA to add something to it so they can go: "Ah, but..."

From the article:-

Although the new gearbox did not require an altered crash structure from the one already approved by the FIA to be put in place, it is understood McLaren's actions could have breached article 16.1.2 of Formula One's technical regulations.

The rules state: "Any significant modification introduced into any of the structures tested shall require that part to pass a further test."

That says to me that McLaren would have thought that, having not changed the crash structure whatsoever, no retest was necessary. It doesn't seem an unreasonable position. :

EDIT: sorry, worse than I thought - it's the Italian race stewards, not the FIA. More Ferrari politicking.

Yep, it seems Ferrari is getting help with turning up the pressure on McLaren.

[schead]

Originally posted by Timstr11
This must be the absolute 'annus horribilis' for McLaren.

They should try getting some cream for that.

[HP]

Originally posted by Timstr11
Yep, it seems Ferrari is getting help with turning up the pressure on McLaren.

Even Mclaren joined the plot, by forgetting to crash test their gearbox. And when will the Alonso fans come out and claim this is all a plot, so that Hamilton stays ahead in the WDC standings.

Without the Stepneygate, what an amusing season.

[J2NH]

Have McLaren lost their collective minds?
You would expect that given the circumstances McLaren would be leaving no stone unturned in an attempt to put the best foot forward. Surely EVERY department head and individual employee would be instructed that right or wrong they are under the microscope and cannot afford to have even the slightest incident. They are not knew to the sport and should have known the gearbox should have been tested. No excuse.

[lettuce]

Originally posted by Ilaya
Freudian slip??

[sensible]

Originally posted by Trebor152
I wouldnt be too suprised if Ferrari bought this to the Stewards attention.

I also wouldnt be surprised if Ferrari brought it up. As they see it, Mac stole their IP, reneged on a deal to be more "friendly" to each other etc, etc. Do you really blame them for taking any chance they can to get at Mac. And besides, Ferrari may or may not have reported it, but it was Mac procedures which again seem to have got them into trouble.

[JForce]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
How did McLaren get through Hungary racing a part that hadn't been fully approved by the FIA?

When a car goes to scrutineering, is the team required to sign a form saying "all the bits on this car have been crash tested as required by the rules"?

Cause I dont know if they have to tell the stewards its a new gearbox. Its not like if its the old one the stewards dont bother to test it or anything.

[panzani]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
How did McLaren get through Hungary racing a part that hadn't been fully approved by the FIA?

Apparently, they didn't: the Scrutineering Report says they 'were found to be in conformity with the safety requirements of the 2007 FIA Formula One Technical Regulations'.

[K-One]

Mclaren does everything to hamper Alonso's season

Seriouly, probably a mistake, but they should be reprimanded. Hard to take any constructror points away as they have already lost them. Go figure

[JacnGille]

Originally posted by Teez

What do the Italian stewards have to do with McLaren's inability or unwillingness to follow the rules?

Ummmm, history? Look up the '76 Italian GP and fuel regs.

[MichaelJP]

Originally posted by J2NH
Have McLaren lost their collective minds?
You would expect that given the circumstances McLaren would be leaving no stone unturned in an attempt to put the best foot forward. Surely EVERY department head and individual employee would be instructed that right or wrong they are under the microscope and cannot afford to have even the slightest incident. They are not knew to the sport and should have known the gearbox should have been tested. No excuse.

Can't believe McLaren's mistakes this year, and I've always been a big fan of the organisation. RD must be aghast.

[Nobody]

Whats worse than a bad winner?
A sore loser.

[JesseFriz]

Its not good when its difficult to tell if you are having a great year (race results) or a horrible year (everything else surrounding mclaren)

[Hacklerf]

If this was a Ferrari racing illegaly, the board would be up in arms

If Mclaren raced an illegal car, then they should be disqualified from the Hungarian GP and hand the win over to Ferrari.

[DCult]

Originally posted by JesseFriz
Its not good when its difficult to tell if you are having a great year (race results) or a horrible year (everything else surrounding mclaren)

Well, the first is the cause for the second. McLaren is the team everybody fears.

[DCult]

Originally posted by Hacklerf
If this was a Ferrari racing illegaly, the board would be up in arms

If Mclaren raced an illegal car, then they should be disqualified from the Hungarian GP and hand the win over to Ferrari.

Sure, strip them another 15 points.

[Group B]

Originally posted by Ved
I thought that whatever the Italian stewards cooked up would at least be delayed until Sunday morning, so as to prevent a successful appeal, however, it looks like they don't want McLaren to participate at all this weekend.

Translation; it looks like the stewards want McLaren to join the other teams in obeying the rules of the sport.

[F1Champion]

Might just be an honest mistake from McLaren given that the structure and shape of the gearbox was the same only lighter. They probably thought that if the new gearbox slots into the rear of the car like the last one and no structure has to be changed then they don't need to have the car re crash tested. But they should of gone to the the FIA and just get a quick check on whether it needs to be done anyway.

Although when you think about it, they re tested the rear of the car later on, so they knew that they had to do it, only they ran the part anyway at Hungary unchecked.........what are they thinking?

McLaren are shooting themselves in the foot this year.

[lukywill]

mclaren is a bit of a peace of gold: ready for trash, right away.

good for them.

i hope mercedes goes with them. into trash.

[kar]

Jesus Christ, McLaren's management need to frankly be shot - just how many outrageous gaffs are they going to be responsible for until someone is held accountable?

EVERY SINGLE ONE of the furores McLaren has been caught up in this year could have been avoided through better management.

This episode is sadly just the latest in a serious of outrageous cock ups on the part of McLaren. If anyone wants to talk about who and how this season was sullied, look no futher than the jokers running the show at Woking.

[Orin]

It gets dumber, statement from McLaren:-


"On Thursday of the Hungarian Grand Prix, McLaren voluntarily made the FIA aware that the team would be using a new reduced weight gearbox casing.

"Before qualifying the FIA asked McLaren to supply after the race weekend some documentation concerning the precise changes that had been made.

"This was supplied before the Turkish Grand Prix, but subsequently McLaren was advised by the FIA that in their opinion the revised gearbox needed to undergo a repeat crash test. As a result the team chose not to use the lightweight gearbox at the Turkish Grand Prix.

"On 30th August the McLaren lightweight gearbox passed both a push off test and an impact crash test without any problem under the supervision of the FIA. Consequently the team will use the lightweight gearbox at the Italian Grand Prix."


So McLaren kept the FIA fully informed all the way, the procedures were followed as normal and now Ferrari choose to **** stir. The Toad gets worse by the day.

[QdfV]

'Poor McLaren, ofcourse they would not do such a thing deliberately, they are completely honest and just forgot about the crashtesting and these rules are so unclear sometimes. And they did not have any advantage, so why punish them even if this most sporting team is guilty?'

[QdfV]

Originally posted by Orin
It gets dumber, statement from McLaren:-


"On Thursday of the Hungarian Grand Prix, McLaren voluntarily made the FIA aware that the team would be using a new reduced weight gearbox casing.

"Before qualifying the FIA asked McLaren to supply after the race weekend some documentation concerning the precise changes that had been made.

"This was supplied before the Turkish Grand Prix , but subsequently McLaren was advised by the FIA that in their opinion the revised gearbox needed to undergo a repeat crash test. As a result the team chose not to use the lightweight gearbox at the Turkish Grand Prix.

"On 30th August the McLaren lightweight gearbox passed both a push off test and an impact crash test without any problem under the supervision of the FIA. Consequently the team will use the lightweight gearbox at the Italian Grand Prix."


So McLaren kept the FIA fully informed all the way, the procedures were followed as normal and now Ferrari choose to **** stir. The Toad gets worse by the day.

Well, it seems they supplied the documents all the way, but just a bit late ....

[Kooper]

Originally posted by DCult



Well, the first is the cause for the second. McLaren is the team everybody fears.

Luca di says Kimi is the one they all fear!

[EVO2]

Thanks to Panzani for posting the Scrutineering report.

Seems to me an open and shut case : Both McLaren cars were found to be in conformity to the safety rules and therefore permitted to race in Hungary. End of story. But, of course, this is Italy, and it isn't.


It's a shame that some sporting authorities and teams actually think that "winning" a championship other than in a straight fight out on the track has any value.

Ferrari even seems to think that their winning of the infamous Bridgestone-only Indy race was a genuine "victory" rather than the farce it really was.

Given everything that is happening, if anyone other than McLaren "wins" the constructors championship by a small margin it will be tainted because of the vendetta being pursued against Ron Dennis and his boys.

WHAT A SHAME, THE BEST SEASON IN YEARS IS BEING THOROUGHLY SPOILT

[MarkWRX]

Originally posted by Hacklerf
If this was a Ferrari racing illegaly, the board would be up in arms

If Mclaren raced an illegal car, then they should be disqualified from the Hungarian GP and hand the win over to Ferrari.

A floor that flexes to provide an illegal aerodynamic movement/advantage is very very much different from failing to test a part that was legal and passed all of the tests.

[Orin]

Originally posted by QdfV


Well, it seems they supplied the documents all the way, but just a bit late ....

If you inform the authorities on the Thursday of the Hungarian weekend and they allow you to race the new gearbox (why? because the crash structure hasn't changed), then it's nothing more than ****-stirring to object two races later. And who's objecting? Oh yeah, the Italian officials - funny that. It seems that for Ferrari, points are points, no matter how low you stoop to collect them.

[Gareth]

Originally posted by Orin
It gets dumber, statement from McLaren:-


"On Thursday of the Hungarian Grand Prix, McLaren voluntarily made the FIA aware that the team would be using a new reduced weight gearbox casing.

"Before qualifying the FIA asked McLaren to supply after the race weekend some documentation concerning the precise changes that had been made.

"This was supplied before the Turkish Grand Prix, but subsequently McLaren was advised by the FIA that in their opinion the revised gearbox needed to undergo a repeat crash test. As a result the team chose not to use the lightweight gearbox at the Turkish Grand Prix.

"On 30th August the McLaren lightweight gearbox passed both a push off test and an impact crash test without any problem under the supervision of the FIA. Consequently the team will use the lightweight gearbox at the Italian Grand Prix."

If that's the timeline, you've got to wonder why this has been raised as an issue now. I guess we'll see if that timeline is correct.

[pRy]

It could be simplified to this:

McLaren: "Oh FIA, sorry it's a bit late, but here is a picture of our new gearbox. Ain't had time to test it yet, think we need to? Opps.. gotta run, free practice is starting"

FIA: "Hmm, can't tell from this, supply more documents. We're busy right now, it's a GP weekend."

FIA: "After checking the docs, the gearbox needs a crash test."

McLaren: "Darn, no time to do that before Turkey.. we'll not use it."

As Ross mentioned, how on earth they got away with that one I've no clue.

[MarkWRX]

Originally posted by EVO2
Thanks to Panzani for posting the Scrutineering report.

Seems to me an open and shut case : Both McLaren cars were found to be in conformity to the safety rules and therefore permitted to race in Hungary. End of story. But, of course, this is Italy, and it isn't.


It's a shame that some sporting authorities and teams actually think that "winning" a championship other than in a straight fight out on the track has any value.

Ferrari even seems to think that their winning of the infamous Bridgestone-only Indy race was a genuine "victory" rather than the farce it really was.

Given everything that is happening, if anyone other than McLaren "wins" the constructors championship by a small margin it will be tainted because of the vendetta being pursued against Ron Dennis and his boys.

WHAT A SHAME, THE BEST SEASON IN YEARS IS BEING THOROUGHLY SPOILT

Look back to the 60's when Ferrari had Monza cancel a race to prevent the Shelby Daytona Coupes from winning the championship that year.

As to the US GP - I was there. I walked out about 10 laps in but couldn't leave the area as our car was boxed in. So we sat around drinking beer until the parade of Ferrari people blowing air horns and waving flags went by shouting "Ferrari is number 1!" So I asked one if Michael won or if he had allowed Rubens to win and he said "Michael won the race!" and wasn't too pleased when I said it was a parade, not a race and added "Yeah, just like when Michael won in Austria in 2002."

[QdfV]

Originally posted by Orin


If you inform the authorities on the Thursday of the Hungarian weekend and they allow you to race the new gearbox (why? because the crash structure hasn't changed), then it's nothing more than ****-stirring to object two races later. And who's objecting? Oh yeah, the Italian officials - funny that. It seems that for Ferrari, points are points, no matter how low you stoop to collect them.

The FIA asked clarification before qualifying, does that not make it 'allowed to race pending clarification'? Why would you need a clarification otherwise? The stewards at the meeting were presented by McLaren with this gearbox on the spot, without knowing what they exactly they were presented with. So no ground for dismissal. The later clarification made the FIA advise MCLaren to the crashtest and that made McLaren revert to the old gearbox. Why did McLaren play it this way? They had the gearbox ready but ran out of time for the crashtest? Or was it just pure innocense? I don't know, but for you it is apparently clear: McLaren and Ferrari; Justine and Juliette to you ...

[rodlamas]

Originally posted by Hacklerf
If this was a Ferrari racing illegaly, the board would be up in arms

If Mclaren raced an illegal car, then they should be disqualified from the Hungarian GP and hand the win over to Ferrari.

Yes. And Ferrari should lose the Malaysian GP win in 1999 and therefore the WCC due to racing an illegal barge board there.

And after that court accepted Brawn explanations: "The insturments used in Malaysia didn't have correct measures."

AFAIK, 1cm is 1cm anywhere.

[Orin]

Originally posted by pRy
It could be simplified to this:

McLaren: "Oh FIA, sorry it's a bit late, but here is a picture of our new gearbox. Ain't had time to test it yet, think we need to? Opps.. gotta run, free practice is starting"

FIA: "Hmm, can't tell from this, supply more documents. We're busy right now, it's a GP weekend."

FIA: "After checking the docs, the gearbox needs a crash test."

McLaren: "Darn, no time to do that before Turkey.. we'll not use it."

As Ross mentioned, how on earth they got away with that one I've no clue.

It is up to the FIA to decide whether to allow a new part to race. They can't give a team the go-ahead at one race and then complain that they might have been a bit rash two races later! Note: McLaren volunteered the information before Hungary. The fact that the crash tests subsequently passed shows just how petty this latest furore is.

[Tuxy]

Sounds like it was the FIA's mess up than McLaren, but they still should had done the crash test. Leave it be, they have significantly more pressing issues like Stepney Gate, which desserves more attention.

[Orin]

Originally posted by QdfV


The FIA asked clarification before qualifying, does that not make it 'allowed to race pending clarification'? Why would you need a clarification otherwise? The stewards at the meeting were presented by McLaren with this gearbox on the spot, without knowing what they exactly they were presented with. So no ground for dismissal. The later clarification made the FIA advise MCLaren to the crashtest and that made McLaren revert to the old gearbox. Why did McLaren play it this way? They had the gearbox ready but ran out of time for the crashtest? Or was it just pure innocense? I don't know, but for you it is apparently clear: McLaren and Ferrari; Justine and Juliette to you ...

Don't be ridiculous. It's the FIA's job to decide whether they're happy to let a team race a modification or not. If they were worried they could have insisted McLaren use the old gearbox.

[the9th]

Originally posted by Kooper


Luca di says Kimi is the one they all fear!

I'll give you my opinion. The marquis is the one source of all the discontent. He'll stop at nothing to win this year. He's the one who canned Michael to make way for Kimi and now he must make a point.

[EVO2]

It seems that for Ferrari, points are points, no matter how low you stoop to collect them.

How right and so eloquently put !!!!!!!!!!!!