25 replies to this topic

[Stefan Schmidt]

I need some help regarding the color of the Mini 997 Cooper driven by P. Moss in 1962 at Rallye Monte Carlo start number #304

Was it a green or red car?
Maybe one can help with a photo – car in action?

Thanks for your help

[RS2000]

I have never seen a colour photo but I have no reason to believe it was other than red - standard BMC Tartan Red, as subsequent works cars were. On the 62 Monte it appears to have the standard Mini Cooper (for red paint) black roof. By the Tulip it had a white roof, like subsequent cars. (Red with white roof was not a standard Mini Cooper colour).

[Mark A]

I haven't seen any colour pictures of the car but 100% it was red. (I've seen the factory build record for the car as I know the vin number).

I think the confusion arises from the model made by vitesse which was green. I have some B&W pictures of it being loaded onto the transporter for delivery to the Start but are copyright of BMIHT.
The car was very standard on that event and the roof was still black, it was white, along with (almost) every other works car, after that event.

The car was scrapped and destroyed a number of years ago.

[Stefan Schmidt]

Mini Years - John Cooper

[RS2000]

Care to share what actually appears there with those not on quick enough connections to view video?
737ABL in colour?

[Stefan Schmidt]

Originally posted by RS2000
Care to share what actually appears there with those not on quick enough connections to view video?
737ABL in colour?

I just load it up, it will takes a time to get faster

[RTH]

Originally posted by RS2000
Care to share what actually appears there with those not on quick enough connections to view video?
737ABL in colour?

Well you cannot see all the registration numbers but they are all Tartan Red

[Stefan Schmidt]

Thank you very much!

[Mark A]

737ABL isn't in that video.

For info not all works rally Mini Coopers were Red/White. Apart from the cars which ran as Red/Black at Monte Carlo in 1962, there was 977 ARX which was white/black on the 62 RAC and the 63 Alpine (but Red/white on the 63 Monte). There was also AGU 780B which was Green/white.

As colour pictures of 11NYB a semi-works supported car burnt out on the 1962 Monte exist I assume there must be some colour pics of 737ABL some where.

It becomes a bit of detective work while trying to find out what colour some cars are. My own car which was rallied by Geoff Mabbs in 1962/63 was prepared at Abingdon (been told by 2nd owner and someone who worked for Geoff), also by that same person what the colour was. Originally I found a reference in a report at the time in one of the magazines which stated it was red. Then I found a glimpse of it on the 63 Monte on a BMIHT video which confirmed it was red.

Here's a pic from 1963.

[RS2000]

11NYB was Geoff Mabbs' white (or rather smoke blackened...) car wasn't it?
I always applaud Abingdon that their comp parts fitted when you bought them, unlike those from a certain competition dept in Essex. Where they failed was in telling everyone about essential mods like the fuel tank strap that caused the Mabbs fire....
Where does AGU780B fit in? Never seen that before as a works car.

[jarama]

Originally posted by RS2000
11NYB was Geoff Mabbs' white (or rather smoke blackened...) car wasn't it?
I always applaud Abingdon that their comp parts fitted when you bought them, unlike those from a certain competition dept in Essex. Where they failed was in telling everyone about essential mods like the fuel tank strap that caused the Mabbs fire....
Where does AGU780B fit in? Never seen that before as a works car.

AGU 780B was Källström's Austin Cooper S 1275 @ the '64 RAC, '65 Monte & '65 Swedish. As far as I know was a works supported car.


Carles.

[RS2000]

It seems to have been a BMC Sweden car, prepared by the Competitions Dept at Abingdon. I dont think the later distinction between Competitions and (customer) Special Tuning Departments had been established then.
AGU is not a Berkshire registration number (as all full works cars were)? (Abingdon was then in Berkshire, now in Oxfordshire, after county boundary changes).

Now I need to check into the early Lars-Ingvar Ytterbring car(s), which I recall as being yellow on one occasion!

[RS2000]

"GU" is a London registration, so it fits with the car being registered to the BMC PR/export offices in London rather than the works team. Bill Price lists this car in "works" results but Peter Browning does not list it as a "works" Mini. The general debate about what is genuinely a "works" rally car has been done to death on another forum with no real answer, given the proliferation of "dealer teams" etc that were to all intents the factory effort. BMC is one of the easier manufacturers in that respect!

[Mark A]

Originally posted by RS2000
11NYB was Geoff Mabbs' white (or rather smoke blackened...) car wasn't it?
I always applaud Abingdon that their comp parts fitted when you bought them, unlike those from a certain competition dept in Essex. Where they failed was in telling everyone about essential mods like the fuel tank strap that caused the Mabbs fire....
Where does AGU780B fit in? Never seen that before as a works car.

11NYB was red/black. People make the assumption it was white due to the fire damage. See below.

Can I ask where the comment about the fuel tank strap comes from as the pictures I have seen of the car after the crash show both straps still in place on the tank? My understanding of the accident was that after they had crashed the fuel pump was still running and it was the usual dodgy fit carb float chamber extensions that allowed the fuel to keep spilling out causing the fire.




On AGU780B it is classed as a Works mini in both Peter Brownings books as well as Bill Prices.
It was used on the 64 RAC, 65 Monte & 65 Swedish as a works car and was then sold to Kallstrom.

[RS2000]

Tank is from Brian Moylan. Like many such recollections, it may be combining two separate stories into one. Certainly I was livid when I first heard about the works mod to the tank mounting strap, as I had already found mine loose. Unlike Ford, where a bit of Mick Jones "fettling" seemed to be necessary to fit any competition part, Abingdon bits alway fitted but were not always accompanied by written advice of their own further mods! (Second tank was not a pure comps part of course).
As Bill Price's text says, AGU prepared by Abingdon for BMC Sweden, which explains it not being a Berkshire registration. "When is works not works" was a long running saga on another forum - and the best record keeper is a guy in Croatia. "Works built/works registered/works run" would leave a very short list of some manufacturers' "works" cars!

[Mark A]

Interested in where the 'other forum' is.

Knowing a number of the owners of the current incarnations of a number of the works cars (and having navigated on Road rallies extensively in one of them 12 years ago) be interested to see the debate.

[RS2000]

http://britishrally....=112605&page=41
(Unless someone deletes this post for "advertising" another forum)(best of luck with 41 pages - look for posts from "Kaps" some months ago, who seems to be compiling the records on that - but most was later than the BMC period)(and allow for English not being the first language of most there).

[bradbury west]

Originally posted by RS2000
I have never seen a colour photo but I have no reason to believe it was other than red - standard BMC Tartan Red, as subsequent works cars were. On the 62 Monte it appears to have the standard Mini Cooper (for red paint) black roof. By the Tulip it had a white roof, like subsequent cars. (Red with white roof was not a standard Mini Cooper colour).

I have a small b/w photo from a very grey day of 737ABL on the Yorks Rally barely 2 weeks after the 62 Monte, when Pat Moss and David Stone IIRC won the event. It scanns badly, all very glossy, but happy to send it, or post it, if anyone wants a copy. The car has a black roof and I recall seeing the car as red, the first time I had seen a works Mini Cooper. The next year she was in a works MGA, 727LBL?? from memory, cannot find photo at present.

The event invariably attracted a top field with several works and previous year's works cars. I believe Eric Carlsson was there one year, and Don Grimsahw in SMO745 and Derick Astle in a similar ex works 3000 but with personal no DA3. 1963 saw 2 ex works Rapiers 5192RW for David Pollard and Tony baines, and 5193RW for the Woods Bros, plus the regular Ecurie Cod Fillet lot and another hero Rupert Jones etc. Happy days

Roger Lund.

[Mark A]

Originally posted by bradbury west


I have a small b/w photo from a very grey day of 737ABL on the Yorks Rally barely 2 weeks after the 62 Monte, when Pat Moss and David Stone IIRC won the event. It scanns badly, all very glossy, but happy to send it, or post it, if anyone wants a copy. The car has a black roof and I recall seeing the car as red, the first time I had seen a works Mini Cooper. The next year she was in a works MGA, 727LBL?? from memory, cannot find photo at present.

The event invariably attracted a top field with several works and previous year's works cars. I believe Eric Carlsson was there one year, and Don Grimsahw in SMO745 and Derick Astle in a similar ex works 3000 but with personal no DA3. 1963 saw 2 ex works Rapiers 5192RW for David Pollard and Tony baines, and 5193RW for the Woods Bros, plus the regular Ecurie Cod Fillet lot and another hero Rupert Jones etc. Happy days

Roger Lund.

Roger,

I'd certainly like to see the picture, always interested to see pictures of works cars away from the main events. my email address is (info @ elise - s160 . co . uk), without the spaces obviously.

Another favourite event for works cars was the Police rally. BMC used to regularly lend out their cars for that event.

[RS2000]

Didn't realise I had this! Question is, where was it posted? I can only think it was on the French Forum Auto comparatively recently.

[jarama]

Originally posted by RS2000
Didn't realise I had this! Question is, where was it posted? I can only think it was on the French Forum Auto comparatively recently.

Yes. Your asumption is right. Was posted on the french Forum Auto recently. I've also a scan.


Carles.

[bradbury west]

And after they had won the event.

usual copyright.
Roger Lund.

[Stefan Schmidt]

By the way...

[sterling49]

Originally posted by RS2000
I have never seen a colour photo but I have no reason to believe it was other than red - standard BMC Tartan Red, as subsequent works cars were. On the 62 Monte it appears to have the standard Mini Cooper (for red paint) black roof. By the Tulip it had a white roof, like subsequent cars. (Red with white roof was not a standard Mini Cooper colour).

Stuart Turner told of how the cars came to have a white roof at the recent FORC meeting, it was his idea and influence, once the Minis were being taken to events in warmer climates. Great they were too, my Mini Cooper was the usual Cooper Car Company colours, complete with white roof

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by Stefan Schmidt

To be fair to Gentleman responsible for Snorty:

http://www.snorty.com/index.php3

Nasty Bit

Snorty is protected by copyright laws in the UK and Europe, which state that copyright exists once a work has been created and that I don't have to specifically register or assert copyright. There are certain naughty magazines and magazine owners out there who think that they can copy work from the internet and represent it as their own. Don't. Be Warned. All work from this site used in a magazine must be represented as quoted from this site for purposes of review, and the URL and author credited. This may sound a little heavyweight, but I've been ripped off before.

[Alan Cox]

In the absence of any other Mini Cooper thread, I shall post this release here concerning two ex-works Mini Coopers, which are coming up for auction, plus a Colin McRae Subaru.

McRAE AND HOPKIRK WORKS RALLY CARS TO COME UNDER THE HAMMER AT H&H
CHELTENHAM, 27 FEBRUARY 2008

It is still only a few months since the rally world lost one of its all-time heroes - Britain's first-ever
World Rally Champion, Colin McRae, who sadly died in a helicopter accident. Under the
circumstances, it is especially poignant for H&H to be offering one of Colin's former cars - the 1992
Subaru Legacy (J314 PWL) in which he won the British Rally Championship of that year, the
second of his career. Estimate - £70,000-100,000.
http://www.classic-a...23963&aucid=229

. . .and a pair of ex-Paddy Hopkirk Works Minis. Ex-Hopkirk Minis have long since been sought by
collectors the world over and H&H will be auctioning not one but two in the Cheltenham sale.
1. 1964 Morris Mini Cooper S (CRX 90B) was the prototype for the hydrolastic rally Minis and
contested the 1964 RAC Rally in the hands of Hopkirk and Henry Liddon. It was then used by
BMC stalwarts Don and Erle Morley on the 1965 Monte Carlo Rally. It remained with the BMC
Competition Department until 1968, when it was purchased by works co-driver Paul Easter. It
subsequently passed through several hands, before being fully restored and finishing second to
Hopkirk's own car (AJB 44B) on the RAC Golden 50 Rally of 1982. Estimate - £40,000-50,000.
http://www.classic-a...23965&aucid=231

2. 1967 Morris Mini Cooper S (OBL 45F) began and ended its works career as a circuit racer (a
response to the increasing domination on rally stages the world over of models such as the
Porsche 911 and Renault Alpine 110). First driven in anger by John Handley at Brands Hatch in 1969,
it went on to contest the Tour de France that year in the hands of Hopkirk and Tony Nash, winning
its class. The car passed into private ownership when the Competition Department was wound up.
Following a lengthy restoration, it is now offered as seen at Brands Hatch nearly 40 years ago.
Estimate - £30,000-40,000. http://www.classic-a...23964&aucid=230

For further details of H&H's sale of collectors' cars, motorcycles, bicycles, registration plates and
automobilia at Cheltenham Racecourse on 26/27 February, log onto http://www.handh.co.uk or call
01925 730630.