31 replies to this topic

[Paolo]

From the F.I.A. statement:

- a fine of USD100 million (less any sum that would have been payable by Formula One Management Limited on account of McLaren's results in the 2007 Constructors Championship had it not been excluded). This fine shall be payable within three months from the date of this Decision.

Now, where on earth can even McLaren find this money in 3 months?
Are they likely to ask a Bank loan of sorts?
And what interest rate are they going to pay for that?
In other words: how much are McLaren going to pay in the end ?

[imaginesix]

Not only that but will their sponsors stand behind them? Will they accept to help defray the costs? Will they accept to compete another year if they are told they can't possibly win a single point? Have the contracts ever considered such outrageous scenarios? If so, does it give sponsors the excuse they need to bail?

Tough times ahead for McLaren.

[Todd]

I suspect McLaren has the cash on hand, and I also suspect that the fine will be reduced anyway. What will be interesting to see is how fans respond to McLaren's cheating driver in their cheating car getting trophies on podiums. If he is booed, will the sponsors wake up and start reading their contracts? That could be the last chance for some justice to be done.

[rhm]

Originally posted by Todd
I suspect McLaren has the cash on hand, and I also suspect that the fine will be reduced anyway. What will be interesting to see is how fans respond to McLaren's cheating driver in their cheating car getting trophies on podiums. If he is booed, will the sponsors wake up and start reading their contracts? That could be the last chance for some justice to be done.

Wrong forum mate. Take the idiotic rambling to the Racing Comments forum,

[Todd]

Originally posted by rhm
Wrong forum mate. Take the idiotic rambling to the Racing Comments forum,

It is a reasonable response to the question. Had you challenged the suitability of the thread to this forum, you wouldn't be the idiotic one.

[AndrewD]

Todd, this is not the forum for those kind of blantant claims, however i can agree in the emotive force behind it. That being said ive never been a fan of ferrari mainly because of their strong ties with the FIA (hence alot of the FIArari comments) going around. Just the smirk on Jon Todts face was enough to convince me of the 'cheating' (however legal) that ferrari is behind.

The only reason why we are here talking about McLaren and their fines for spying on another constructor is because no other constructor has been found out. Plain and simple

[J. Edlund]

Originally posted by Paolo
From the F.I.A. statement:

- a fine of USD100 million (less any sum that would have been payable by Formula One Management Limited on account of McLaren's results in the 2007 Constructors Championship had it not been excluded). This fine shall be payable within three months from the date of this Decision.

Now, where on earth can even McLaren find this money in 3 months?
Are they likely to ask a Bank loan of sorts?
And what interest rate are they going to pay for that?
In other words: how much are McLaren going to pay in the end ?

The lost income from Formula One Management i supposed to be around $50 million, so this means they will have to pay about half the sum, around $50 million, given that the verdict isn't changed after an appeal. This amount of money shouldn't be any problem for them to pay, even without financial backing from any of McLarens owners (like Daimler). It's still a large sum though, but had it been an of the smaller teams that had been fined this amount they would have gone bankrupt.

[J. Edlund]

Originally posted by AndrewD
The only reason why we are here talking about McLaren and their fines for spying on another constructor is because no other constructor has been found out. Plain and simple

Toyota was found out. One of their engineers, a former Ferrari employee had taken some data with him when he left for Toyota. Altough the engineer was found guilty in a civil court, FIA did not take any action against Toyota.

[McGuire]

Originally posted by Paolo
Now, where on earth can even McLaren find this money in 3 months?

If it came to that Ron could go out in the garden and dig up a coffee can or two.

[imaginesix]

I find it hard to believe that any business would leave such large amounts of unallocated funds lying around. At the very least it would be budgeted for some purpose. 100 million buys a few engineers and a lab, or a solid PR campaign, or a handsome bribe, or a generously sized villa by the sea. I'm no businessman but I can see the folly of having all this money sitting unused so I don't buy the explanation that it's no problem for McLaren.

[AndrewD]

Originally posted by J. Edlund


Toyota was found out. One of their engineers, a former Ferrari employee had taken some data with him when he left for Toyota. Altough the engineer was found guilty in a civil court, FIA did not take any action against Toyota.

Exactly my point. FIArarri! Why was action only taken by ferrari against mclaren (particularly interesting is their competitive tassle between the two) when toyota are not even a chance of ruining ferraris season!

[Zoe]

Originally posted by AndrewD


Exactly my point. FIArarri! Why was action only taken by ferrari against mclaren (particularly interesting is their competitive tassle between the two) when toyota are not even a chance of ruining ferraris season!

Did Ferrari ever bring the Toyota affair in front of the WMSC?

Zoe

[phantom II]

Yes, I'd normally agree, but in a serious matter such as this, it is better to have engineers discuss it than the nincompoops on other forums.The focus should be on the content of the 'liberated' files. We are all fans and engineers or not, we are always disappointed when the people we look up to, let us down. Could McLaren use this information during this season, or will it be used for the 08 car? I believe in Ron Dennis' integrity, but not Ferrari or Mosely or to a certain degree, Eccolstone, so I believe there won't be a transfer of info. Dennis alerted the FIA immediately after receiving this info. Raikenen left McLaren in a cloud, so all is not well at my favorite team and I certainly don't like either driver but Dennis, although a prick, I'm on his side.. Since we don't know what this information is, it is probably a good idea to suspend this thread or at least the rambling and perhaps speculate on the info transfer...

Originally posted by rhm


Wrong forum mate. Take the idiotic rambling to the Racing Comments forum,

[Paolo]

The thread was actually intended as a technical thread about economics.

As Imaginesix said, for sure McLaren does not have 100 millions cash.
Converting assets in a rush, or asking for loans, has a price; so I suspect McLaren will end up paying quite a lot more than the fine.

My original question was about how much more are they likely to pay.

[Ross Stonefeld]

About half. They'll get a loan probably. Just like they did for their factory which cost a hell of a lot more.

There will also be bonuses from the sponsors for winning the drivers and constructors championships. Even if the FIA says they didn't win the latter, the sponsors may see it different.

They're getting Lewis on the cheap too, so they're already 10-15mil ahead on that end of the accounts.

[Todd]

Originally posted by phantom II
Dennis alerted the FIA immediately after receiving this info.

That is far from a reflection of what happened. Ron Dennis alerted the FIA after the first hearing, after the information had been acted on for months, and only with the threat of Alonso releasing the information to the FIA should Dennis not grant him preferential treatment. Integrity at McLaren? More like birds of a feather.

[imaginesix]

Originally posted by Todd
That is far from a reflection of what happened. Ron Dennis alerted the FIA after the first hearing, after the information had been acted on for months, and only with the threat of Alonso releasing the information to the FIA should Dennis not grant him preferential treatment. Integrity at McLaren? More like birds of a feather.

You fail to mention he alerted the FIA the very first day he heard the suggestion that the info had been disseminated within the team. And that was despite the fact that he didn't believe there was any truth to the suggestion himself.

[sweetreid]

ITV mentioned in pre-race that it's more like $100 million - $70 million that bernie pays for constructors points (even though mclaren is excluded, they're still going to get the coin, ITV seemed to indicate). A much more stomacheable amount.

[imaginesix]

Except that they knew the 70 mil (roughly) was coming since the start of the season, so it had to be budgeted and allocated to something.

[mariner]

I think that the real issue for Ron Dennis is Mercedes. They are a major shareholder in McLaren as well as supplying engines. They must have some sort of legal board representation or rights so when Ron says he will talk to the shareholders it means Mercedes as well as Ron the owner.

I do not know if Mecedes have a more positive view of McL. than BMW had of Williams but in the end BMW wanted to own all the toys tehmsleves. That thought may have been in Mercedes mind as well.

So I suspect that Mercedes can call this one if they want to. The "obvious" solution for them is to offer to buy out Ron with enough cash to clear the fine and then rename it Mercedes. That way they don't have the stigma of their name on a team accused of cheating but they get control of the Mclaren team , and probably cheaper than buying out Ron in the past.

[ray b]

sorry I just DONOT see any stigma of their name on a team accused of cheating
nore do M-B want to get control of the Mclaren team any more then they now have

Mclaren is a MAJOR brand name in auto sports
hence the co-branding of Mclaren with M-B on the top of the line road cars

Mclaren will be around for a long time

[ray b]

now the cash payment is a subject I would like real info on
is it under 50m or near 70 million or somewhere in between?????

is there any good info on what F A makes ??
hammie is reported to be paid about 500k
but are there any real perks for wins and/or WDC for him or F A??

with USA background of newspaper reports of dollars won every week in the race reports
all this secret BS is strange
and no desire to pay $300 for a book of guesses on this subject!!!!!

[J. Edlund]

Originally posted by ray b
now the cash payment is a subject I would like real info on
is it under 50m or near 70 million or somewhere in between?????

is there any good info on what F A makes ??
hammie is reported to be paid about 500k
but are there any real perks for wins and/or WDC for him or F A??

with USA background of newspaper reports of dollars won every week in the race reports
all this secret BS is strange
and no desire to pay $300 for a book of guesses on this subject!!!!!

It's said that McLaren should have been paid something like $50-70 million by Formula One Management, different sources claim a bit different numbers. This means that McLaren should pay something between $30 and 50 million for the fine. The 50-70 million McLaren loses is said to go to the other teams while the fine goes to FIA to spend on their young driver program.

[desmo]

It seems to me that whenever one senior engineer moves from one team to the next, what the team hiring the engineer away is buying is to a large degree the collected experience and knowledge of that engineer, obviously obtained at his former employers. There is no apparent way to somehow segregate that collective knowledge into categories of what is theoretically allowable transfer and what isn't. I'd have thought that the deeper understanding of why things were done one way or another- knowledge intrinsic and inseperable from the engineer himself- would be far more valuable than any hard copy of technical data.

Which leaves me wondering why any engineer moving from one team to another would take the crazy risk of possessing hard copies of technical data when he left. He should have the really good stuff between his ears, no?

[phantom II]

Maybe there wasn't a lock on the printer as there would be with digital copying. I always like conspiracies and therefore, I would carefully monitor this particular engineer's bank balance because I wouldn't put it past Ferrari to arrange for this little caper in order to win yet another championship.

indigoid and dosco are picking on me again. Tell them to stop, please.

Originally posted by desmo
Which leaves me wondering why any engineer moving from one team to another would take the crazy risk of possessing hard copies of technical data when he left. He should have the really good stuff between his ears, no?

[dosco]

Originally posted by phantom II
indigoid and dosco are picking on me again. Tell them to stop, please.

At least I'm ragging on you in a thoughtful way ;)

[miniman]

Originally posted by desmo
It seems to me that whenever one senior engineer moves from one team to the next, what the team hiring the engineer away is buying is to a large degree the collected experience and knowledge of that engineer, obviously obtained at his former employers. There is no apparent way to somehow segregate that collective knowledge into categories of what is theoretically allowable transfer and what isn't. I'd have thought that the deeper understanding of why things were done one way or another- knowledge intrinsic and inseperable from the engineer himself- would be far more valuable than any hard copy of technical data.

Which leaves me wondering why any engineer moving from one team to another would take the crazy risk of possessing hard copies of technical data when he left. He should have the really good stuff between his ears, no?

An individual's collected experience but not current data and certainly not current technical diagrams. Newey wasn't allowed to move overnight from McLaren to Red Bull. What took place here was the movement of the collective experience of the whole technical staff at Ferrari to a rival team.

[phantom II]

Happy 60th today. http://www.af.mil/library/usaf60.asp

You are just being nice 'cause I told on yah.

Originally posted by dosco


At least I'm ragging on you in a thoughtful way ;)

[dosco]

Originally posted by phantom II
Happy 60th today.

Hoo-raah!.

You are just being nice 'cause I told on yah.

Well, I wanted to say "butch the **** up," but I thought the better of it.

[RDV]

desmo-Which leaves me wondering why any engineer moving from one team to another would take the crazy risk of possessing hard copies of technical data when he left. He should have the really good stuff between his ears, no?

...this is going to turn into a major discussion point amongst engineers...I shudder to think about going out and weeding out what can be considered proprietary information out of the 3.5 terabytes of data and documents I have in my hard disks... what about lap data from data-loggers? arghh...
Not to mention that so much info is realy in numerical data such as aero-maps, FEA analysis, weight lists and track information... yes , a lot is in the prefrontal cortex, but there is more than that needed...
Presumably the FIA will have to issue guidelines and/or a general amnesty to engineers...

[imaginesix]

Originally posted by RDV
Not to mention that so much info is realy in numerical data such as aero-maps, FEA analysis, weight lists and track information... yes , a lot is in the prefrontal cortex, but there is more than that needed...

Are we to understand then that good, original, workable ideas are more easily found in F1 than the time and money to test and develop them?

[RDV]

imaginesix-Are we to understand then that good, original, workable ideas are more easily found in F1 than the time and money to test and develop them?

..yes, and not only in F1...the trouble is finding a favourable cost/benefit ratio...what-if scenarios are all well and good, but you need the numbers to simulate...anything else is just guessing or having umpteen dozen fudge factors... not exactly engineering...