21 replies to this topic

[Stirling]

I was reading the BBC's 'On this Day' entry for 7 April, the day Jim Clark died in 1968. (http://news.bbc.co.u...000/2837559.stm ) The article notes that:

Jim Clark was one of more than 100 international racing drivers killed 'in action' between 1958 and 1968.

Am I correct in thinking that this makes the decade 1958-68 the one with highest casualty rate of drivers in the history of the sport?

ciao,
Stirling

[David McKinney]

It would if it was true.
Without knowing their definition of "international racing drivers" it's impossible to compare those 11 years with any others.
OTTOMH I can think of ten in the years 1958-68, and even if I've only remembered half, that's sill nowhere near 100.

[Stirling]

Yes, I see what you mean! The era was certainly one of high casualties, but even considering all forms of motor sport during the period, an average of over 10 fatalties per year for a whole decade starts to look very high. I wonder what the BBC's source is........

ciao,
Stirling

[Paul Parker]

If they meant drivers of any nationality racing anywhere I think it might be true.

Unfortunately I cannot open the BBC link, it shows as not available. What we need here is a true pedant but for the record and straight off the top of my head I can think of these
1958 Scott-Brown, Musso, Collins, Lewis-Evans, Pat O'Connor (Indy), Whitehead, Brousselet 'Mary' (Le Mans)
1959 Bueb, Behra
1960 Schell, Bristow, Stacey
1961 von Trips
1962 Rodriguez R.
1963 Heins (Le Mans)
1964 Sachs, MacDonald (both Indy), de Beaufort, Lindner, Patria (both Montlhery 1000 Kms)
1965 Casner, Spychiger
1966 McClean, Hansgen, Taylor
1967 Weber, Bandini, Anderson, Pittard
1968 Clark, Spence, Scarfiotti, Schlesser

Brain fade is intruding just now but I think that there must be some more sports/GT and some F2/F3 drivers to add to my list and I've probably missed some obvious ones.

[Stirling]

Here's the link again, Paul, which hopefully may work: http://news.bbc.co.u...000/2837559.stm

What you say would make it of interest to know what sources - and parameters - the BBC used for that figure!

ciao,
Stirling

[Paul Parker]

Thanks for the repeat of the website Stirling, it worked this time.

Basically the piece does not give any definition of international, but as I said if you included drivers of all the major formulae over 10 years the 100 fatalities figure is in my opinion possible or close.

I did not include touring cars either and I have just thought of another 'victim' from 1964 Timmy Mayer in the 1964 Tasman series.

It is a sobering thought and a reminder that the good old days were just that as long as you exclude the tragedies.

[stevewf1]

Not sure what is meant by "International Drivers", but these drivers competed at Indy (in some form - practice, qualifying or race)

(This to add to the lists at this point in the discussion - if I hurry)

Drivers who died at Indy:
1959 - Jerry Unser, Bob Courtner
1961 - Tony Bettenhausen
1966 - Chuck Rodee

Other Indy drivers (list includes location, but not series) :
1958 - Art Bisch (Atlanta)
1958 - George Fonder (Hatfield, PA)
1958 - Jimmy Reece (Trenton, NJ)
1959 - George Amick (Daytona)
1959 - Ed Elisian (Milwaukee) - He's the one who initiated the big 1958 pile-up at Indy
1959 - Marshall Teague (Daytona)
1960 - Jimmy Bryan (Langhorne)
1960 - Al Herman (West Haven, CN)
1960 - Johnny Thompson (Allentown, PA)
1961 - Al Keller (Phoenix)
1962 - Don Davis (New Bremen)
1963 - Allen Crowe (New Bremen)
1966 - Don Branson (Gardena, CA)
1966 - Jimmy Davies (Santa Fe Speedway in Chicago)
1966 - Jud Larson (Reading, PA)
1967 - Gary Congdon (Terre Haute)
1968 - Ronnie Duman (Milwaukee)

The following drivers from the above list have scored World Championship Points: Bryan (18), Bettenhausen (11), Thompson (10), Amick (6), Davies (4), Branson (3).

There's a quick list, but I've probably missed someone...

[HDonaldCapps]

Jim Clark was one of more than 100 international racing drivers killed 'in action' between 1958 and 1968.

Looking at "international" as meaning that it would relate to drivers of all nations, I think that there is sufficient reason to think that "more than 100" might be a number that could be met and easily exceeded during this period -- especially if you include fatalities during practice, qualifying, and tire testing sessions. Indeed, adding in the American deaths during this period and the number soars very easily....

In NASCAR alone in 1964 you had Joe Weatherly at Riverside, Fireball Roberts and Jimmy Pardue at Charlotte. And then add Bobby Marshman to the USAC toll along with Sachs and MacDonald (who was actually racing on a NASCAR license that year). And then Billy Wade was killed just after the turn of the year at Daytona.

It truly was a bloody period... and that does not even begin to include the "maimed" or the spectator deaths....

[D-Type]

Given that this is a general article for a general audience I don't see the writer making the subtle distinction between international and non-international races so he must mean "Racing drivers - internationally".

Looking at the figures on Motorsport Memorial where the ten worst years for fatalities range from 76 to 155, admittedly including spectators and officials, the figure of 100 in ten years appears low.

I can also believe the period quoted being the worst as it fell between the increase in racing world-wide following WW2 and the increase in safety consciousness associated with Jackie Stewart and Louis Stanley. But I feel a detailed study would be necessary to establish precisely which ten year period was the worst and feel that such a study would serve no useful purpose.

[Jim Thurman]

So, who is going contact the BBC and ask them for their source on this?

We need to be pedantic about these sorts of writings and claims, just for the record.

Sadly, I don't think it's much of a stretch to have been 100 internationally between 1958 and 1968.

Let me add Dick Atkins, who died in the same crash with Don Branson in 1966.

I still remember a very negatively bent Associated Press article listing racing fatalities "on track" and including Graham Hill and Ron Flockhart

I've also seen cancer victim Jimmy Daywalt similarly included in "racing deaths" lists.

[Rob G]

The years 1933 & '34 were extraordinarily deadly seasons in Grand Prix racing alone, so I'd be curious to see how a decade including those two years would stack up against the one in question.

[Stefan Ornerdal]

BBC source?
Motorsport Memorial website? http://www.motorsportmemorial.org/
I was somewhat involved when our TNF-friend Sal Chiapetta and his friends started this website.
We DID talk about the possibility that someone would use this website AGAINST motorsport.

In june this year a speedwayrider, a club-mate, a friend of mine, crashed fatally in front of my eyes.
The tabloids started their usual raving against any kind of motorracing. "Stop it". "The usually motorsport fatality this week" etc.

And all these, I have to say, evil, journos referred to motorsportmemorial as their sources.

The tragic death of Colin McRae was advertised in my countrys TV-channels as: "See our sport magasine later tonight: another motorsport victim, once again a rally driver is killed."


Stefan
www.formula2.net

[Stefan Ornerdal]

Further to my post earlier...

Did British newspaper really had headlines like this 1956:

"Manchester United Football team in plane crash in Munic, Germany! Almost every player killed! Experts says: Football is too dangerous, it has to be stopped NOW!"



Stefan

[raoul leDuke]

A few more:

1958 - Gwyn Staley, Billy Myers, Archie Scott-Brown, Pat O'Connor, Erwin Bauer, Steve Spitler, George Fonder, Luigi Musso, Art Bisch, Peter Collins, Peter Whitehead, Jimmy Reece, Stuart Lewis-Evans

1959 - Marshall Teague, George Amick, Dick Linder, Jerry Unser, Van Johnson, Jean Behra, Ivor Bueb, Ed Elisian, Glen Rocky

1960 - Harry Blanchard, Ettore Chimeri, Harry Schell, Al Herman, Chris Bristow, Alan Stacey, James E. 'Jimmy' Bryan, Johnny Thompson

1961 - Tony Bettenhausen Sr, Giulio Cabianca, Dean Layfield, Wolfgang von Trips, Al Keller.

1962 - Dennis Taylor, Peter Ryan, Don Davis, Jean 'Lucienbonnet' Bonnet, Clark Templeman, Ricardo Rodriguez, Gary Hocking

1963 - Juan Gálvez, Christian Heins, Bill Randall, Celso Lara Barberis.

1964 - Joe Weatherly, Tim Mayer, Eddie Sachs, MacDonald, Edward Glenn "Fireball" Roberts, Tony Bonadies, Count Carel Godin de Beaufort, Bobby Marshman.

1965 - Billy Wade, Don Horvathm, Lloyd Casner, Tommy Spychiger, Tony Hegbourne, Jimmy Ray Quick Sr, Ken Miles

1966 - Bob McLean, Walt Hansgen, Jacques Bernusset, Jimmy Davies, Jud Larson, David Ward Ridenour, Don Skogmo, John Taylor, Don Branson, Richard Charles Atkins

1967 - Donald Campbell, Billy Foster, Carlos Martín, Jacques Robert Weber, Lorenzo Bandini, Boley Pittard, Beat Fehr, Giacomo Russo, Bob Anderson, Georges Berger, Oscar Cabalén, Gary Congdon, Ian Raby, Arsenio Laurel, Norberto José Polinori

1968 - Jim Clark, Victor Tandy, Mike Spence, Ludovico Scarfiotti, Jo Schlesser, Chris Lambert, Ab Goedemans, Bert Brooks.

historicracing.com

[David McKinney]

My personal definiton of "international" would delete more than half of of the above names on the basis that they never raced against drivers from any country but their own.

But New Zealanders Duncan Mackenzie (1961), Johnny Mansel (1962) and Bill Caldwell (1966) did, and so did Australians Rocky Tresize and Lex Davison (both 1965), plus no doubt others I can't think of at the moment.

[Macca]

Shane Summers, 1961.


Paul M

[Jerry Entin]

Doug Revson, 1967 in Denmark.

[Ray Bell]

I wouldn't count Rocky Tresise, David...

Though he raced in a couple of 'International' races, he was in his own country and hardly competitive with visitors.

Ken Miles, raoul, didn't die in 1965. I can verify that as I saw him race at the end of November that year.

[raoul leDuke]

Ray.

Of course you are correct about Ken Miles. Thanks.

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by Stefan Ornerdal
BBC source?
Motorsport Memorial website? http://www.motorsportmemorial.org/
I was somewhat involved when our TNF-friend Sal Chiapetta and his friends started this website.
We DID talk about the possibility that someone would use this website AGAINST motorsport.

In june this year a speedwayrider, a club-mate, a friend of mine, crashed fatally in front of my eyes.
The tabloids started their usual raving against any kind of motorracing. "Stop it". "The usually motorsport fatality this week" etc.

And all these, I have to say, evil, journos referred to motorsportmemorial as their sources.

The tragic death of Colin McRae was advertised in my countrys TV-channels as: "See our sport magasine later tonight: another motorsport victim, once again a rally driver is killed."


Stefan
www.formula2.net

I remember when someone connected with Mike Gagliardo, who died in a Trans-Am crash at Mosport, linked to your website list of fatalities.

Stefan do you have any of these tabloids that cited Motorsport Memorial? I don't read Swedish, but I would be interested in seeing the context.

I'm expecting it soon enough in the U.S.

I've enquired with Sal as to how they intend to handle any misuse of the data, which I feel is inevitable, but I have not received a response.

As I've mentioned in the past, here in the U.S., it's football (gridiron). The same sportswriters that condemn racing excuse every football incident as a freak, fluke. The opening weekend of the NFL season saw yet another paralyzing injury. A sportswriter that attacked racing "for not being honest about it's brutality" said he wanted to see a news blackout on football injuries like this : No double standard at all.

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by David McKinney
My personal definiton of "international" would delete more than half of of the above names on the basis that they never raced against drivers from any country but their own.

David, I think you might be surprised at how many of those above names would qualify using your personal definition.

Even one who might seem the least likely, probably raced alongside Canadians on a regular basis, possibly on both sides of the border.

Anyone at Indy in '52 would have raced alongside Ascari, anyone there from '61 on raced alongside the likes of Brabham, Hill, Clark, Stewart among others.

I still think it's more semantics (or improper grammar) and the writer means "internationally".

[Stefan Ornerdal]

Dear Jim,

I have spent the last 40 minutes searching for the text you wanted.
The paper is called Expressen, www.expressen.se and the columnist’s name is Jan Erik Berggren.
I have an 8MB-speed internet connection, works perfect all around the world (most of my time in front of the ‘puter I use to listen to a local radio station in Auckland, New Zealand, music of my kind – and on the other side of the globe..) but to search on anything in Expressen is impossible. Takes an awful time. I have Googles pop-up-windows shield, but it does not work on Expressen’s adverts. Nothing works.

I am writing these few lines in MS-Word and when I typed this papers web-address (above) my whole computer system went down for a minute or two.

Got it, Jim? You understand? Me Swedish. Nicht versteen. Do not understand. Io no comprende.

I’m off to my local library later this week, hopefully I can find the paper-issue there.

Kind regards
Stefan
stefan.ornerdal@minmail.net
www.formula2.net
www.vargarna,nu