55 replies to this topic

[275 GTB-4]

The car originally was a red XK120 owned by Tom Duffy in the 1950s. Jack Masling owned the car for a while and converted the rear end to swing axles. The car went from two SUs to three one and three-quarter SUs and locally made CME pistons installed to give a compression ratio of 10 to 1.

Alwyn Rose bought the A-U and renamed it the Dalro-Jaguar and added a huge sump to make it run cooler. He crashed it at Catalina Park in the early 1960s. Les Wiggett, Jack Baker and Alwyn rebuilt the car in 11 weeks.

They built the MKII based on XK120 components and a lighter chassis. A further weight saving was achieved with Bob Britton patterned alloy wheels. The engine was bored to 2660cc, Velocette Pistons gave 13:5 to 1 C/R!. Dunlop disk brakes were also fitted.

The Dalro-Jag seems to have been a very competitive car developed over many years.

[Ray Bell]

Quote

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4
.....The Dalro-Jag seems to have been a very competitive car developed over many years.

And one which never succeeded in providing its driver with the security of knowing which way he'd be facing as he came out of turns...

'Developed' is rather a strong word when used in relation to this car, I believe.

[Dick Willis]

Ray, I think you are being over critical of a good car, you are probably basing your judgements on the antics of a succession of owners the Dalro had in the seventies who regularly crashed it or spun it and then, in about 1981 it was bought by Bob Healey, a most accomplished steerer who, without changing the car, never put a foot wrong in it and won nearly every race he started in in those early very competitive days of Group L which probably demonstrated to everyone at the time that the Dalro certainly wasn't a pig, but rather the deficiencies of some of its former pilots.

Les Wright, the present owner bought in around 1983 and then promptly backed it into the unforgiving concrete wall at "stop" corner at Amaroo, flattening the tail, because he forgot that it had a centre accelerator pedal, one of Stirling Moss's pet hates. Naturally he reverted to a more conventional pedal arrangement and rebuilt the tail to its original Alwyn Rose style instead of the high tail with which it had been fitted for some years.

Les then proceed to race it extensively and very enthusiastically and successfully for the next 20 or so years and yes, crashing it on a few occasions but not I would guarantee from any fault of the car but Les testing the upper limits of its capabilities. I can attest to this having rubbed wheels with Les on several occasions in some of the titanic battles we had. Thankfully, the powers that be decided that he should be moved to the later Group M which reflected the time that Dalro 2 was built, in 1961 but far from being an alsoran the Dalro continued at the front part of the field to the eternal chagrin of Brabham owners. I had the pleasure of driving the Dalro in a race at Wakefield Park about ten years ago and can confirm that that it handles very well indeed but it took some getting used to the seating position with the left leg cocked over the gearbox.

As Les later became distracted with the Brabham Buick and Ralt RT4 the Dalro was relegated to museum duty at Bathurst but as the Ralt is now for sale Les told me last weekend that the plan is now to resurrect the Dalro and return it to Historic racing. Wouldn't it be nice if he could be invited to Goodwood with it where I'm sure he would show the other front engined cars a thing or two.

[terry mcgrath]

we wrote a book back in 1985 titled "the Jaguar XK in Australia" by john elmgreen and terry mcgrath which had the history of the original XK120 and the full history of the special.
I have the new text typed up for our new edition of the book due out next year this time broken up into 3 separate volumes ie 120 140 and 150 about 450 pages per volume and around 1200 photos per volume. It will be same dimensions as previous XK book and our more recent book "The Forerunners of Jaguar" see http://www.paulskilleter.com

Below is the new text for the original 120 before it became a special. By April 1963 the Dalro was reputed to have become the fastest ever front engine car to have lapped Bathurst in a time of 2:47 secs which meant it was quicker than a Maserati 250F , what do they lap Bathurst in now with the kink 2:08 secs! It was timed down conrod at 144 mph.
As soon as I get the text typed up[ for the special I will post it. If I could work out how to post photos in under 5 secs I could post the most fantastic pic of Les Wright driving the car with great gusto
terry

660846 W3467-7
Red, Red, Sand

Austral Union/Dalro Special.
Chassis completed 29 June 1951 and despatched 13 July 1951 on the order of Brysons, Sydney The car was collected from the factory on 16 July 1951 by purchaser Mr W.R. White. The car was originally red and was re-delivered on 5 November 1951 to Mr White in Sydney (having arrived there on the “Scottish Monarch”with XK120s 660800 and 660845). Acquired subsequently by Tom Duffy and smashed by him when he collided with Tom Geoghan's Jupiter at Mr Druitt on 4 May 1952. The wreck was purchased by Larry Humphries who used it as the basis of the Austral Union Special, later known as the
Dalro Jag. See Specials Section for later history.

Regd: LDU718 (UK, Coventry, 1951), ACM977 (NSW, 1951)

[275 GTB-4]

Have to agree with Dick....the car is "relentlessly" quick...thanks for bringing us up to date on its whereabouts...I supposed it must have gone overseas

[Stan Patterson]

Here is the beast Phillip Island, March 1992

Damn fine thing

URL=http://imageshack.us][/

[Patrick Fletcher]

Quote

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4
Have to agree with Dick....the car is "relentlessly" quick...thanks for bringing us up to date on its whereabouts...I supposed it must have gone overseas

It did go overseas in the early 1980's ...

[Stan Patterson]

Patrick,

I can assure you , I took that pic myself at Phillip Island in 1992 or maybe 1993

If it went overseas...it was back then

Stan

[terry mcgrath]

It only went to New Zealand which is really only just another state of Australia for their early year historic race season and returned safely

[Stan Patterson]

Oh,,

Right......damned lucky it came back!


Stan

[Patrick Fletcher]

It had one or maybe two trips across the Tasman to New Zealand last century ......... a very nice "special" that was repatriated to the West Island by it's owner.

[Stan Patterson]

Nice question Dick,

So how did the Dalro's lap times at Phillip Island compare with those of the Ill-fated front-engined BRM?


Stan

[Ray Bell]

Terry, at 2:47 it wasn't the fastest front engined car around Bathurst...

Arnold Glass did 2:44.7 in October 1960, Ted Gray had done 2:45.4 way back in the AGP in 1958 in the Tornado, Bib Stillwell took an Aston Martin around in 2:36.1 in 1961.

Yes, Dick, I have always taken the word of those who'd followed its history and one of those who'd ridden it backwards into a wall. However, to attribute the term 'competitive' to the car one would have to severely qualify the judgement. It was hardly competitive with front line open wheelers, as the above times show.

[Dick Willis]

Stan,

I was at Phillip Island when the BRM crashed and had talked to some of Spencer Flack's crew after practice and they were concerned it was running out of revs down the straight and wanted to fit bigger rear tyres. Everyone thoght it was lapping at some phenomonal speed and I had often wondered myself just what time it had done. Because the fatal crash happened in the saturday race which was red flagged no result sheet was issued so its lap times were always a mystery to me until I recently discoverd a time sheet from qualifying.

From memory I think it did 1.57, Peter Giddings did around that a couple of years ago in his 250F, Rod Jolley from the UK in his ex Patterson 2.5 Cooper got into 1'51"s this year, a few years ago the guy Paul Samuels sold his Lotus Fifteen 2.5 litre to from Denmark ? got into 1'50's, and again without checking, I am sure the Dalro has been well under 1.50, perhaps 1'48, I will check tomorrow.

So while the BRM and 250F were always regarded as quick front engined cars, at some 8 or so seconds quicker they wouldn't see which way the Dalro went.

[Doug Nye]

Quote

Originally posted by Dick Willis
So while the BRM and 250F were always regarded as quick front engined cars, at some 8 or so seconds quicker they wouldn't see which way the Dalro went.

With all due respect to poor Spencer the above is based on very poor evidence - he was not amongst the quickest of drivers, he had relatively little experience in his BRM, and none of the circuit on which he died.

DCN

[Stan Patterson]

Dick.

In the race, the BRM was duelling for the lead with the UK Lister Chevrolet, while Paul Samuels in the 2.5 Lotus XV was sitting close behind them, almost hanging back, keeping clear - it seemed. It all looked a bit hairy down the main straight on the lap of the accident and so I thought Samuels was doing the right thing under the circumstances.

However, my point is, the Lotus was running with the BRM and given that I dont believe Samuels ever drove the XV to its full potential, it would seem the BRM was not lapping all that quickly, despite its magnificent appearance and superb noise.

I cant recall seeing the Dalro run against the Lotus XV - it seemed that it was always in M & O, while the Lotus was in La & Lb, (I could be wrong) - so it seems lap times are all that can be used as a comparison.

Interesting.....

Stan

[Stan Patterson]

Dalro among the M & O tiddlers





Stan

[Stan Patterson]

grrr

[275 GTB-4]

Quote

Originally posted by Stan Patterson
Dick.

In the race, the BRM was duelling for the lead with the UK Lister Chevrolet, while Paul Samuels in the 2.5 Lotus XV was sitting close behind them, almost hanging back, keeping clear - it seemed. It all looked a bit hairy down the main straight on the lap of the accident and so I thought Samuels was doing the right thing under the circumstances.

However, my point is, the Lotus was running with the BRM and given that I dont believe Samuels ever drove the XV to its full potential, it would seem the BRM was not lapping all that quickly, despite its magnificent appearance and superb noise.

I cant recall seeing the Dalro run against the Lotus XV - it seemed that it was always in M & O, while the Lotus was in La & Lb, (I could be wrong) - so it seems lap times are all that can be used as a comparison.

Interesting.....

Stan

Isn't Paul still with us and living just up the road from me??? It would be interesting to hear his take on this one - real interesting

[cosworth bdg]

Quote

Originally posted by Stan Patterson



[/B]

This really is a typical mismatch of car types in Australian Historic Racing.........

[Ray Bell]

It does show, however, that the Dalro is probably running wider tyres than it could if it ran in Group L...

And it is how races were run in the period.

[cosworth bdg]

Quote

Originally posted by Ray Bell
It does show, however, that the Dalro is probably running wider tyres than it could if it ran in Group L...

And it is how races were run in the period.

Ray, i hope members of the historic commision are on this forum and taking notice ...........

[Ray Bell]

They wouldn't have any qualms about this, Peter...

The car runs in Group M, under which rules it can run those. I was mentioning this for the sake of partially explaining why it might be quicker than a 1954 GP car with an engine capacity 70% of the Dalro's.

[Catalina Park]

What is wrong with different cars with different characteristics racing against each other? I always enjoyed running in a free for all!
The situation had gotten silly these days with CAMS trying to stop HQ Holdens with 4 speeds from racing against HQ Holdens with 3 speed gearboxes because of the dangerous speed differential.
I know that some common sense is needed but these days they go way beyond common sense. I wonder what CAMS would have thought the day that Winton put the cars out with the bikes for private practice. (Them bikes are very hard to pass but if you just stick the corner of the bonnet under the bike riders elbow and they soon give way!)

[Robert Bailey]

Quote

Originally posted by Stan Patterson
grrr

I remember running against at those early 90's Phillip island meetings,it was fast i would say '48s the photo of Stans shows gun driver Andrew Robson in his BT14 t/c so if racing the Dalro would have been in the top 2/3.I can remember doing a 1.48 in my Mono at the Island and the Dalro in a straight line just went buy.That is one car that should go to Goodwood.

[Dick Willis]

So, given all the foregoing does anyone want to dispute the fact that Les and the Dalro are the qickest front engined open wheeler combination EVER to race in Australia.

Now despite all the previous debate about more modern tyres remember that the Dalro is shod with 70 series American road tyres costing underA$200 each, not grooved slicks, Avon or any other exotics

[Robert Bailey]

Quote

Originally posted by Dick Willis
So, given all the foregoing does anyone want to dispute the fact that Les and the Dalro are the qickest front engined open wheeler combination EVER to race in Australia.

Now despite all the previous debate about more modern tyres remember that the Dalro is shod with 70 series American road tyres costing underA$200 each, not grooved slicks, Avon or any other exotics

yep all day long sure was at the Phillip Island meetings I raced in.

[Ray Bell]

How does that combination compare to Graeme Snape and the Eclipse at its best, Dick?

And before we get too carried away with 'fastest' and 'ever', let's not forget that there were some very quick front engined cars at the Millennium race in Adelaide (Gary Brabham, for instance, was booming along quite well in a Panoz) and some of the Clubmans around the country are pretty quick.

Worse... the barge and bash gang lap there in 1:34s...

[Doug Nye]

How quick was Davo's InterContinental Aston Martin in its down-under career?

DCN

[David McKinney]

It didn't race very often (and nor did Bib Stillwell's)
Davo in the Aston was pretty much on a par with all but the best T51 Coopers, or a bit faster than a 250F.
It would be interesting to know what an Aston (or a 250F, for that matter) might have done with the 45 years of more or less continuous development the Dal-Ro's had since it was first built in 1961.

[Dick Willis]

Ray, I was specifically referring to open wheelers as I knew someone would refer to the Panoz and we are really referring here to cars in the "Historic" period.

As to the Zephyr, the best way I can draw comparisons is by my own experiences, I could always, just beat the Zephyr at Eastern Creek and Phillip Island but the Dalro even in Group L configuration was just too quick and his times of 1.48 are way ahead of mine. Again from memory I think the best time the Zephyr did at Phillip Island was around the 1.57 mark comparable to the 250F etc.

The Aston is an unknown quantity in Australian Historics but, and please correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think an Aston has ever won a front engined Historic race in the UK when a full field of the best front engined cars were present. The Lotus 16's seem to be the front runners these days don't they or the ex Pat Hoare Ferrari.

[David McKinney]

Quote

Originally posted by Dick Willis
I don't think an Aston has ever won a front engined Historic race in the UK when a full field of the best front engined cars were present. The Lotus 16's seem to be the front runners these days don't they or the ex Pat Hoare Ferrari.

The Astons were the cars to beat for a short time before the Dino Ferraris came onto the scene, and then Lotus 16 owners found how to make their cars go faster
Bot of course the Astons were running 3.0 engines (as they had in period) against the 2.5 of the opposition (until, as you say, the Pat Hoare 3.0 Ferrari came along)

[ken devine]

If you want to know where the Dalro Jaguar is know it is in the National Museum at Bathurst,i photographed
it there in April.I take it is the car you are talking about.

[275 GTB-4]

Quote

Originally posted by ken devine
If you want to know where the Dalro Jaguar is know it is in the National Museum at Bathurst,i photographed
it there in April.I take it is the car you are talking about.

Yes Ken, it is...I think Dick mentioned that in an early thread...so...where are the pictures

[ken devine]

If i Knew how to post the photo i would. Help''

[275 GTB-4]

Quote

Originally posted by ken devine
If i Knew how to post the photo i would. Help''

http://forums.autosp...&threadid=70638

[johnny yuma]

From the NATSOFT records,Wright in the Dalro Jag did 1:47.22 at eastern Creek in 2001,1:48.4 at phillip island in 2001,1:09 at Wakefield in 2002 ,always finishing well up and only beaten by well driven more modern cars.
In todays crop of front engine historic openwheelers I can't think of a faster car in Australia.Some may have the potential but are not campaigned.

Out of interest what LAP TIMES did Fangio do at Sandown in 1978 in the Mercedes 300 ??

[Stan Patterson]

In reply to your question Johhny,

Fastest lap at Sandown in 1978 in the Brabham/Fangio "race" was 1 m 21.6 seconds which was 20 secs outside the lap record of the day.

Also of course, this was on the old Sandown, so it would not be possible to compare that time with any Dalro times at the same circuit.

It should also be noted that the Brabham was capable of at least 1m 07, or thereabouts on that old circuit.

At the opening Sandown meeting March 1962, both Lex Davison and Pat Hoare raced the Aston DBR4 and Ferrari Dino V12 respectively. I dont know practice lap times, but the starting grid had Davison on Row 4 alongside 2 Cooper T51's (Youl and Whiteford), while Hoare was back on Row 6 alongside Flockhart's very tired Lotus 18 and Austin Miller's Cooper Corvette. Also Davison recorded a 1m 12.9 during the race which indicates to me the front-engined Aston it was a good bit quicker than a 250F. By way of comparison Jack Brabham recorded the fastest lap of the weekend in his 2.7 T55 Cooper at 1m 8.1 sec.

None of this really helps because it can't be compared directly with the Dalro.

Stan

[johnny yuma]

Ignorance is bliss-that 1978 meeting was my last and only Sandown visit,I didn't know it had a new layout.
I guess the thing about the Dalro is its continual development,and Les Wright's driving of it.Would be sensational at Goodwood.
Wonder what time it would do now at Bathurst.Would have to be a deal faster than Peter Hopwood's 1:44.2 in the Healey 3000 in 1998 when he was hounding Welch's Healey.

[johnny yuma]

Theres a good NZ GP site all the finishers from 1955 thru 1960s as front engine gave way to rear engine.The Maserati 250F,Ferrari and Aston were the fastest of the dying breed--anything Jaguar powered was off the pace by 1958.Many front engine racecars could beat the Dalro if developed and driven well but in Australia it is yet to be done I believe.Our 250Fs are show ponies.

[terry forrest]

The car that would push the Dalro if it were revived to race would be the Tornado,now I think in the Moore collection in Queensland.It was certainly very very fast in 1958 and with a small block Chev engine(and all the development of 50 years)extreme power would not only be accessible but also relatively inexpensive.So come on Frank get it out and show us.

[Ray Bell]

With the right tyres, Graeme Snape could do it...

That Zephyr's got some go.

[Stan Patterson]

Greetings,

The Tornado had a circuit performance somewhat simliar to that of the 250F and the Davison Ferrari... ala AGP 1958.

I think it has been established that the Davison Aston was a fair bit quicker than those three..see my posting re Sandown March 1962.

We can only speculate what the Tornado would be capable of, if it been developed over the years as has been the Dalro.

David McKinney was right..the Aston was quicker than the 2.2 Coopers on some circuits..but even at wide open Sandown it was slower than Patto's T51.....but quicker than the rest.

Stan

[Ray Bell]

I think the Tornado did continue with some development...

John MacDonald had the car from '61 or so and crashed it. In the rebuild I'm sure he would have looked closely at what he was doing. He also built it into a sports car for a time.

[Stan Patterson]

Dalro engine bay - posted on behalf of Les Wright




Stan Patterson

[les wright]

Quote

Originally posted by Stan Patterson
Dalro engine bay - posted on behalf of Les Wright




Stan Patterson

Thank you for posting the photo showing the Dalro engine bay.

This shot should help explain some of the reasons why Allwyn Rose was able to vastly improve the handling of the Dalro when he built the mark 2 Dalro in 1961

You will note that the engine is canted to one side,allowing the driveshaft to run beside the driver,so the engine could be moved back,shortening the wheel base by some twelve inches,which also reduced overall weight, and moved the weight bias towards the rear.

The end result ,the handling is more like a rear engined car than a front engined.

I believe some of the spinning problems experienced by earlier drivers can be put down to the axle splines binding up.

[Stan Patterson]

posted on behalf of Les Wright

[URL=http://imageshack.us][/

superb pic....

Stan Patterson

[Stan Patterson]

Posted on behalf of Les Wright..

I hope this was a handicap or a staggered start Les !

[URL=http://imageshack.us][/


Stan Patterson

[Ray Bell]

Quote

Originally posted by les wright
.....I believe some of the spinning problems experienced by earlier drivers can be put down to the axle splines binding up.

Indeed...

I recall looking at it closely, either at Catalina or an Amaroo Historic meeting or at Bathurst when Cummo drove it... the angles on the driveshafts were ridiculous.

[bradbury west]

Looking through the files here, there is a interesting 2 page piece, history and track test, on the Dalro in the March 1988 issue of Thoroughbred and Classic Cars, by whom I am not sure, but possibly Nick Brittan

Roger Lund.