100 replies to this topic

[Peter Leversedge]

Can anyone tell me how many Lotus 18 F1 & FJ cars where built and where are they now?

[David McKinney]

Best estimate:
Supposedly 125 FJ cars
24 F1 and F2 cars 1960/61 (plus the three 18/21s built 1962 by Parnell Racing from factory spares)
There are plenty of 18 Juniors racing in Europe and North America, and several F1/F2 cars as well

[RTH]

http://www.historicl...ars/thecars.htm

HLR quotes 120 FJ and 29 F1 & F2

[raceannouncer2003]

I looked through some of my Monterey Historic programs and found these Lotus 18 F1 cars:

905 Don Orosco, Pebble Beach, CA (1995)
907 Michael Beale, Tecumseh, Ont. (1995)
914 Mark Griffiths, Cheshire, UK (2003)

Anybody know the whereabouts of others? David Beard, are you out there?

Vince H.

[David McKinney]

I didn’t post earlier because my list is by no means complete or up-to-date.
However, Vince started, so I’ll continue, and perhaps others can finish.
The list comprises F1 (and F2) 18s and 18/21s.
Dates in brackets are the last record I have of each
(And there do seem to be more on the list than the 27-car total I mentioned earlier ;) )
369 written off 1960
370 written off 1960
‘370’ Roy Walzer, USA (2003)
371 Guido Gechelin, I (2000)
372 Walt Hansgen, USA (1962)
373 Michael Schryver, GB (2007)
374 Joel Finn, USA (1997)
‘375’ Chris Smith, GB (2005)
376 written off 1960
901 Donington Collection, GB (1995). Vanwall
902 Gaetano Starrabba, I (1961)
903 Dan Gurney, USA (1963)
904 Reg Parnell Racing, GB (1961)
905 Don Orosco, USA (1992)
906 written off 1962
907 Michael Beale, USA (1995)
908 Olav Glasius, NL (2005)
909 Nick Mason, GB (1998)
910 Tom Norton, GB (1961)
911 Pierluigi Mapelli, I (1999)
912 Donington Collection, GB (1995)
913 Musée Nationale, F (1994)
914 Mark Griffiths, GB (2003)
915 Marcus Mussa, MC (2004)
916 André Wanty, B (2007)
917 Dawson-Damer family, AUS (2004)
918 written off 1967
‘918’ Tim Towey, GB (2000)
919 Mark Rigg, GB (1964)
P1 Peter Horsman, GB (2007)
P2 Eric Staes, B (2001)

E&OE

[Peter Horsman]

914 now owned by John Elliott (2006)

Christopher Mann owns an early 18 - don't know what chassis no.

'375' now sold somewhere non-UK

[David McKinney]

Thanks Peter
I know Chris Mann has an 18 but haven't noted its number (if it has a plate) and he's never been around when I've wanted to ask! I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be 374.
Thanks for the other updates

[bschenker]

Wat's Lotus 18 is this on the "Collezione Panini" and may by the history?

.

[raceannouncer2003]

Update on 907:

Apparently Charles McCabe of San Francisco has it now and raced it at Pau and Silverstone this year. He must have had it on display at Monterey in 2005. I remember hearing Jim Hall telling somebody he had signed it for them.

Vince H.

[raceannouncer2003]

372 Apparently Charles Kirkbride raced it at the runoffs at Daytona in 1967 (won his race)
374 Apparently Rob Walton has/had? this car at some point? Would this be before or after Joel Finn?

Vince H.

[Peter Leversedge]

Thanks for the feedback, I had no idea so many Eighteens had been built. I raced a FJ for a short time [about 1967] in New Zealand. It was fitted with a 1500cc engine. Vic Blackburn owned the car which had been first raced in NZ by Jim Palmer

[Peter Horsman]

I have not heard of 'P3' before, if that's what you meant David. Any info?

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Peter Horsman
I have not heard of 'P3' before, if that's what you meant David. Any info?

[Macca]

John Oakley of the HLR has/had an 18/21, dark green with a pale yellow stripe, and with several brackets in the cockpit indicating it had had 3 different types of gearbox in its time (presumably queerbox, Colotti and ZF or Hewland?) - which chassis would that be?

photo:
http://www.southseam.../sprint0291.jpg


Paul M

[David Beard]

Originally posted by David McKinney
I know Chris Mann has an 18 but haven't noted its number (if it has a plate) and he's never been around when I've wanted to ask! I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be 374.

[Doug Nye]

Where 18s are concerned does anyone else want a chassis plate? Warm as a nice fresh loaf....

Honest Doug, The Pavement, Warren Street

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by David McKinney
I know Chris Mann has an 18 but haven't noted its number (if it has a plate) and he's never been around when I've wanted to ask!

...and nor have I seen any display board he might have

[Ray Bell]

Did you get the number of that one that ran in the Tasman series, David?

Innes Ireland apparently picked up second place points in it at the Farm...

[Peter Horsman]

Three 18/21s built by Parnell from Lotus spares.................

[Peter Horsman]

And I have a proper chassis plate on mine, Doug.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Did you get the number of that one that ran in the Tasman series, David?
Innes Ireland apparently picked up second place points in it at the Farm...

As far as I know, the only 18 (other than Juniors) that ever ran in a Tasman race was the 18/21 or Shelly and later Riley.
However, in 1961 three Team Lotus cars plus a Rob Walker entry and a Yeoman Credit entry ran in some of the New Zealand internationals (before the Tasman series was born) and I think one of the works cars and the Rob Walker car also raced in Australia that year. Then in 1962 Ron Flockhart raced an 18 in both countries.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Peter Horsman
Three 18/21s built by Parnell from Lotus spares.................

Ah - I'm with you now
I think 919 might have been the third Parnell-built 18/21

[simonlewisbooks]

There was one in Ireland some years ago which the owner had been lucky to locate in classic barn-find style. However it was in a dreadful state and almost none of the original chassis had survived as usable metal so he had a replica frame built up and hung the other components on it. He used to joke it was the cheapest Lotus 18 in existence having cost him about £2000 at that point.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by David McKinney
As far as I know, the only 18 (other than Juniors) that ever ran in a Tasman race was the 18/21 or Shelly and later Riley.....

Yes, that was my point...

I guess the sarcasm was lost on you. It related to the board in the picture.

[David McKinney]

Sorry Ray, I'm not psychic
If you look at the top right of any individual post you'll see a little box labelled 'quote'. If you click on that it reproduces that post along with your own. That way people can tell what you're talking about
(Now who's being sarcastic ;) )

[ottoracing]

Peter
Thanks for your greeting in Introduce Yourself.

I found this post, so I thought I'd send in this info. A friend of mine Phil Lamont races a 1960 Lotus 18 FJ, quite successfully at that. I actually have a sketch of him racing it at www.piczo.com/racecartoys.

He is the owner of Vintage Tyres Limited, the distributor of DUNLOP racing tires in North America. He lives in Hubbards, Nova Scotia. I have a clip of him racing it at the 2007 Mosport Vintage Racing Festival; send me an email, and I can send it to you.

Cheers!
Paul

[Peter Leversedge]

I now understand the Lotus 18 FJ that I raced in NZ about 1967/8 was 703.I undestand it was driven by Jim Clark, Mike McKee and then in NZ by Jim Palmer,Ross Greenville, Peter Slocmmbe, Allan Rhodes, under Vic Blackburn's ownership, Vic, Martyn England and myself. Vic drove the car the last time it was run under his ownership and had the engine blow up. He then decided to give up racing and sold the car with the engine not repaired. I have not seen the car since but understand it is still in NZ in the ownership of Keith Abbott. My deal with Vic was he supplied the money, I did the work on the car and we shared the driving. When I entered the arrangement the car had been crashed and I repaired it before it was able to be run.

[KJJ]

I didn't actually know this but it seems that Innes Ireland won the 1960 United States Grand Prix at Watkins Glen in Lotus 18 372:

http://www.classicca...php/carno/39653

[David McKinney]

...then raced in the Tasman Series three years before it was inaugurated

[Ray Bell]

...and was liberally detail-photographed by Robert Britton.

Anyone seeking proof of originality can request such photos from myself. I don't think Britto would mind.

[raceannouncer2003]

Rudolf Ernst from Germany entered and raced a Lotus 18 at this year's Monaco Historique. Class 2, so 2.5 litres, but "Année 1961" (?) It was pale green with the UDT tartan on the front. Does anyone know which one it was?

Vince H.

[David McKinney]

It was also at Silverstone last weekend, bearing chassis plate no. 915

[RTH]

David Lawson's great photo from the Silverstone classic



Mark A's photo from the Silverstone thread of John Delane's Lotus 18

[Derek Pitt]

Hiyas,

One thing in respect of the Lotus 18 I was never sure of..this seems to be the place to get the answer.

The same model number was used to cover FJ, F2 and F1 and all three had a similar appearance save for the obvious difference in wheel/tyres, spring rates etc. I understand that the F1 and F2 cars were virtually identical but I have never known if the 18 FJ was so-named simply because it looked similar or because it was the same car.

My questions are therefore:

were the frames identical in every respect..size weight etc?
were the body panels inter-changable?
what were the actual differences between the FJ and its bigger brothers?

By way of comparison, the Cooper FJ cars were clearly and easily identifiable as different from their big brothers and had different model numbers...the 18 didnt and I have never seen a FJ and a F1 18 alongside each other. .

Would love to hear the opinions of TNF'ers on this issues.

Thanks in advance.

Derek

[raceannouncer2003]

Originally posted by David McKinney
It was also at Silverstone last weekend, bearing chassis plate no. 915

Thanks, David!

Vince H.

[Rob29]

Originally posted by David McKinney
...then raced in the Tasman Series three years before it was inaugurated

Tasman SERIES was inaugurated in 1961,NZ series c1954? Tasman CHAMPIONSHIP started in 1964.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Rob29
Tasman SERIES was inaugurated in 1961

Source, please - any contemporary British, European, American, Australian or New Zealand publication will do

[MODE]

One of the 3 entered at Monaco Historic :

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by Derek Pitt

My questions are therefore:

were the frames identical in every respect..size weight etc?
were the body panels inter-changable?
what were the actual differences between the FJ and its bigger brothers?

The F1 chassis is quite different - the most obvious difference being it has a perforated bulkhead at the rear (where the gearbox mounts), the junior just has tubes.
I think some of the main chassis tubes are bigger as well.

Not sure if the overall frame sizes are similar, which would answer the body panel question.

Apart from the larger engine & gearbox, the F1 car had disc brakes and therefore different rear uprights.
Wheels, radiators, oil tanks and probably fuel tanks would all have been bigger on the F1.

It was also at Silverstone last weekend, bearing chassis plate no. 915

That's the car that was on the roof at the entrance to Donington for many years.

Alan Baillie restored it and while he was doing so he found one of the Laystall biscuit barrel gearboxes, that matched the mountings on the car perfectly.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Rob29
Tasman SERIES was inaugurated in 1961, NZ series c1954? Tasman CHAMPIONSHIP started in 1964.

Sure, there was a series of races held in Australia and New Zealand in 1961, and there had been in 1960 as well. I don't know how many races, but in 1960 Hume Weir and Longford fitted into the schedule, being on the first and second weekends in March. Was there a Gnoo Blas available too?

As Warwick Farm was completed and running in 1961, there was scope for another event, and the Light Car Club put together another event at Ballarat airstrip (after a lapse of ten years, and after having one rained out the previous year) to suit the timing.

So yes, there was a series of races, but they weren't connected in any way except that there would have been some co-operation between the promoters with a view to aiding each other in getting the international drivers in.

It was never known, to my knowledge, as a series or by the title 'Tasman'. To be honest, I never heard that word connected with these races until the 'Tasman Cup' series was announced.

[Roger Clark]

Stirling Moss has said on a number of occasions that the 18 demanded a much more precise driving style than the contemporary Coopers. THe implication was that you had to be very good indeed to get the best out of a Lotus. I've always found it difficult to reconcile this with the fact that they sold over 120 Juniors, mostly driven by people with less experience and, presumably, less skill than Moss. I don't know whether the differences described by Peter Morley could account for this.

[Ray Bell]

Two points about this, Roger...

First, would the Juniors have required the same precision... or would their lower power, smaller wheels and other compromises have meant they didn't?

And how many of the drivers who competed in the 120 cars sold had a comprehensive testing session first?

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Ray Bell


Sure, there was a series of races held in Australia and New Zealand in 1961, and there had been in 1960 as well. I don't know how many races, but in 1960 Hume Weir and Longford fitted into the schedule, being on the first and second weekends in March. Was there a Gnoo Blas available too?

As Warwick Farm was completed and running in 1961, there was scope for another event, and the Light Car Club put together another event at Ballarat airstrip (after a lapse of ten years, and after having one rained out the previous year) to suit the timing.

So yes, there was a series of races, but they weren't connected in any way except that there would have been some co-operation between the promoters with a view to aiding each other in getting the international drivers in.

It was never known, to my knowledge, as a series or by the title 'Tasman'. To be honest, I never heard that word connected with these races until the 'Tasman Cup' series was announced.

In 1960, Brabham raced at Longford and Philip Island, but an Australian racing in Australian races hardly makes for an international series by the definition that would apply later. Also, he had contested only two of the four New Zealand internationals, so there can really be no suggestion of a continuation of the NZ series into Australia.

The Warwick Farm International in 1961 was the first Australian race held after the NZ series which could in any way be linked to it, though Moss and Brabham had done only two of the four NZ races and Ireland, Flockhart, Gurney and Hill just one each. Again, hardly a continuation of the NZ series. Four of the overseas entries at Warwick Farm went on to race at Ballarat (but not Moss or Brabham), and then Brabham raced at Longford and Hume Weir, as did Salvadori (who had done all four of the NZ races, though in a different car).

1962 was in fact the first year that the same core of drivers did all (or most) internationals in both countries, and therefore the first year which could logically be credited with hosting a single two-country series.

But still no-one referred to a Tasman Series until, as Ray says, the first official championship in 1964

[Derek Pitt]

Thanks for your reply Peter

I thought that was the case and if so, surely the 18 is the only Lotus, (or any other manufacturer for that matter), to have one model number covering 2 basicallyy different cars?

Derek

[Mark A]

Originally posted by RTH
David Lawson's great photo from the Silverstone classic



Mark A's photo from the Silverstone thread of John Delane's Lotus 18

More 18's from Silverstone Classic,

Formula Junior

The car driven by Neil Daws.



Classic Team Lotus car shown above driven by Dan Collins.



Pre 66 GP

Opening lap with a couple of 18's in the midst.



Peter Horsman's 18/21.

[fines]

Originally posted by Derek Pitt
Thanks for your reply Peter

I thought that was the case and if so, surely the 18 is the only Lotus, (or any other manufacturer for that matter), to have one model number covering 2 basicallyy different cars?

Derek

Ralt RT1?

Oh, I see, you said two different cars...;)

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by Roger Clark
Stirling Moss has said on a number of occasions that the 18 demanded a much more precise driving style than the contemporary Coopers. THe implication was that you had to be very good indeed to get the best out of a Lotus. I've always found it difficult to reconcile this with the fact that they sold over 120 Juniors, mostly driven by people with less experience and, presumably, less skill than Moss. I don't know whether the differences described by Peter Morley could account for this.

There is a theory that the Cooper chassis is more flexible which makes it a more forgiving car than the Lotus with its stiffer chassis.
Whether that is the reason (I suspect Lotus suspension was probably better than Coopers as well for example) most people who have driven both say that the Cooper is easier, but the Lotus is ultimately quicker just it requires more skill & effort to keep it near its limit.
As you say a great driver will be much quicker in the Lotus, but a lesser driver might be quicker in the Cooper.

As you say what that doesn't explain is why Lotus sold so many Juniors compared to Cooper - presumably Cooper simply weren't capable of building such numbers, or did their preference for BMC engines hold them back?

[Sharman]

Peter
As I was reading through your post I was saying to myself BMC engines, and I found it right at the end.
The problem was that XSP units were not exactly thick on the ground and were not available to lesser purchasers. A 105E could be competitively tuned by a number of tweakers and was the motor of choice as soon as it came onto the market. We sold a hell of a lot of bare units in the early 60s.
John

[Angus Lamont]

Does anyone know the whereabouts of the Lotus 18 FJ purchased by Wallace Harper (Hong Kong)? It was raced by several drivers before being sold to John Macdonald who used it to win the 1965 Macau Grand Prix. John also took it to the 1966 Macau Grand Prix as his spare car (he raced a Cooper T59 in the main event). This is the last reference that I can find about the car after which it just seemed to vanish!

[Peter Horsman]

373 now with Paul Smeeth from Michael Schryver.

I think that the Coopers can generally be driven fairly easily sideways but the (and certainly my) Lotus likes a little bit of power oversteer but too much and it's very untidy and difficult (for me, probably impossible) to cope with whilst maintaining forward momentum. That's my experience, and seems to be borne out by watching the Classic footage on Motors TV.