44 replies to this topic

[Doug Nye]

Our august President of the FIA seems to be experiencing something of a late-life crisis just now. Mindful of what the Ferrarigate finding thread triggered in this place I hesitate to post the following, but in view of his latest target's historic standing perhaps TNF is indeed a fitting location for the President's latest reported/reputed indiscretion to be examined?

It is being claimed elsewhere that Max Mosley has said the following, publicly, of Jackie Stewart:

" "There's one particular ex-driver who because he never stops talking, never has the chance to listen - so he doesn't know what's going on.

"It's annoying that some of the sponsors listen to him because he's won a few championships. But nobody else in Formula One does - not the teams, not the drivers. He's a figure of fun among drivers," Mosley added.

Mosley also apparently poked fun at Stewart's tartan trousers and caps, adding: "He goes round dressed up as a 1930s music hall man.He's a certified halfwit."

If indeed Mosley said any of the above, in my experience a small proportion is not without foundation - JYS does tend to make a pronouncement and then expect even the most knowledgeable and shrewd audience to place it upon a pedestal and dance around it in unreserved admiration - but for the elected head of worldwide motor sport's governing body to go so much further to deride a former triple World Champion in this way is 'surprising' (at the very least) and surely throws doubt upon his surviving judgment?

Now for the TNF-relevant bit .

As the 'M' in March Engineering, one wonders if Mosley can recall who won their first two Formula 1 races for them? And harking back to his recent emphasis upon the importance to the motor sporting world of always telling the truth, might he recall the 'trade description' he appended, I am told, to the Formula 1 March chassis which he sold 'new' to Williams Grand Prix Engineering upon its foundation? Glass houses, stones...opinions best left unsaid.... all spring to mind. Presumably the Frances of NASCAR and the head honchos of USAC and the SCCA or CAMS have mouthed-off inappropriately on various occasions?

Entertaining though, isn't it - all this politician-watching...

DCN

[EcosseF1]

Mosley is Bernie's stooge and has little credibility IMHO. Whether one personally likes JYS or not he has achieved a great deal...sounds a bit like sour grapes from a failed driver/constructor.

[FLB]

Sorry for being a bit pedantic, but it's lèse majesté...;)

I fear JYS is suffering a little bit from SMS (Stirling Moss Syndrome). Both were great drivers who gave a great deal to the sport, but neither seemed to me to accept it when their time was passed. I suspect Sir Jackie would find the absence of any type of attention simply unbearable.

That said, Mosley is well on his way of achieving a status I once thought impossible:

I'm actually missing Jean-Marie Balestre...

[Doug Nye]

Drat: I knew it was wrong but couldn't be bozzered. Anuzzer moment Condor ...

[Ray Bell]

Might be something wrong with me, I guess...

If Stirling or Wee Jackie have something to day, I'm willing to listen.

[scheivlak]

Of course, this is a rather ridiculous utterance by the FIA president.
I have to say though that JYS made a complete fool of himself by pleading not guilty for McLaren beforehand, completely irrelevant of either the proceedings of the appeal session or the proof delivered at that occasion.

So we have two people who discredited themselves, which IMHO at the same means that Jackie - I held him in much higher esteem than Max - has discredited himself far more than Max.

[AMICALEMANS]

Is Max will become like his father ?

[Ross Stonefeld]

He's not more pre-inclined to fascism than you are.

[AMICALEMANS]

What do you mean ? His predecessor was french and had a some relative with facism ! So, my question is still on the air !

[Ross Stonefeld]

There is just as much chance that you will look at your parents and think "I don't want to become like them" as there is inspiration from them. Let's focus on Max Mosley, not Oswald.

[Macca]

MM is perilously close to slander - he's (just) enough of a lawyer not to name names..........but not enough of one to have made a living at it, whatever his qualifications.

And he was indeed co-principal of an F1 team who were dishonest in business and cheats in the sport; like BCE he picks and chooses factoids to support his argument and hopes nobody will remember those that deny it (not a problem with most young F1 fanatics and tabloid journalists).

I'll never be nostalgic for Balestre, but MM must GO!

(and while the sins of the son cannot automatically be blamed on the father, it should be noted that BOTH his parents were fascists and distinctly economical with the truth when it suited them........heredity, anyone?)

Paul M

[kayemod]

Max Mosley taught me almost everything I know about UK law, he was a part time lecturer when I was getting a degree in business studies, and that would have been some time in the late sixties. His cuffs were often a bit frayed back then, but I bet they aren't now. Max is a very wealthy man, who somehow manages not to appear in published 'Rich Lists'. He inherited a few millions, but almost all of what he has today has come from his involvement in motor racing. He was never much of a driver, MARCH went bust, and he didn't practice for long as a barrister. Only curious you understand, but I'd love to know where it all came from, especially as he's done his FIA job 'for expenses'. It has always puzzled me that so little about Max seems to be in the public domain, his present day wealth can't be all that far from the Paddy McNally/Bernie Ecclestone league. I'm not jealous you understand, and I'm absolutely certain that MRM would never do anything that wasn't absolutely above board, but how has he managed to keep his pile a secret from people like the compilers of the Sunday Times Rich List? I only have (old) hearsay evidence, so can't repeat it here, but I'm certain that Max would qualify somewhere in the top 50%, so how has he managed it? Come to think of it, the originator of this thread doesn't appear on the ST list either, maybe he and Max share the same accountant....

[Bondurand]

M. Mosley seems to enjoy his position as the "bad guy". When you think he's becoming wiser, he does or speaks wrong, only to remember everyone how bas he can be. His comments on tartan trousers are sheer racism, and I'd love to see him confronted to a horde of happy Scotsmen.

Some kind of family trait I guess...

Hail to Jacky Stewart ! A guy who made 3 times champion of the world, who fought for safer tracks and who prefered not to run the 100th and last race of his carreir because his friend and team mate died will always keep my respect for all his (and my) life.

[Ross Stonefeld]

What Max Mosley said about JYS can still be true and doesn't change or tarnish what he did when he was active as a driver. It's not terribly far from an accurate appraisal of JYS current being.

Criticising tartan is racist? Did I wake up in America again?

[Hieronymus]

Ban the words "Max Mosley" from this Forum.

[ian senior]

Silly sod. I treat this with a mixture of contempt and mild amusement, with amusement coming out in front. There's no need for him to have a pop at Stewart and I can't help thinking that there may be a certain amount of jealousy and sour grapes. JYS achieved far, far more in motor sport than Max could even dream of, and is held in almost universal respect. Max.... isn't.

Judging them both by my usual criteria, JYS easily passes my "pint in the pub" test (even though I might be buying all the drinks). Max doesn't. 'nuff said.

And is it just me, or is this the season for lots of TNF threads concerning people named Max?

[Glengavel]

I wonder what a psychiatrist would make of Max's attack on a figure of fun wearing ridiculous 1930's dress...

[Bondurand]

Originally posted by Glengavel
I wonder what a psychiatrist would make of Max's attack on a figure of fun wearing ridiculous 1930's dress...

A psychiatrist, I dunno..; but a psychanalist would surely find interesting links between MM and the 1930's

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Macca
MM is perilously close to slander - he's (just) enough of a lawyer not to name names..........but not enough of one to have made a living at it, whatever his qualifications.

Doesn't matter if he doesn't name names, so long as the individual is one of a small enough class to be identified. He gets away with it by not saying anything that's not opinion/"mere vulgar abuse".

[rbm]

oh remind me ................. what is the fine for bringing the sport in to disrepute

[Catalina Park]

Originally posted by rbm
oh remind me ................. what is the fine for bringing the sport in to disrepute

They make you the president.

[Maldwyn]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
If indeed Mosley said any of the above, in my experience a small proportion is not without foundation - JYS does tend to make a pronouncement and then expect even the most knowledgeable and shrewd audience to place it upon a pedestal and dance around it in unreserved admiration - but for the elected head of worldwide motor sport's governing body to go so much further to deride a former triple World Champion in this way is 'surprising' (at the very least) and surely throws doubt upon his surviving judgment?

That's the point isn't it. It's not what MM said, even though that in itself was childish enough, but the fact that the FIA President should comment in this way on what was, after all, just another opinion.

I was reminded elsewhere that back in 1997/8 the FIA, headed then as now by Mosley, wrote to the Stewart Grand Prix team to confirm that they had the finances necessary to continue in F1. It was, as far as I know, an unprecedented move.

There's certainly history there.

[bradbury west]

Originally posted by FLB

I fear JYS is suffering a little bit from SMS (Stirling Moss Syndrome). Both were great drivers who gave a great deal to the sport, but neither seemed to me to accept it when their time was passed.

I have no desire to be contentious, nor to go off at a tangent, but I cannot help but feel that you are doing something of a great disservice to SCM. Their retirements were under entirely different circumstances, and their respective level of achievements similarly not the same. I suppose it is a matter of how you view Stewart, and how you esteem SCM. I do not appear to have many books by or about Stewart on my shelves. I recall seeing him in an E type at Rufforth in the early 60s. Purely personal opinion.

Roger Lund.

[MonzaDriver]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Doug Nye
.

"It's annoying that some of the sponsors listen to him because he's won a few championships..........

[/COLOR]

Probably that is the real problem. That Sir Jackie Stewart has a very good credits among very important people in motor racing and elsewhere
I am sure because he deserve this credit.

DCN [/QUOTE]
If indeed Mosley said any of the above, in my experience a small proportion is not without foundation - JYS does tend to make a pronouncement and then expect even the most knowledgeable and shrewd audience to place it upon a pedestal and dance around it in unreserved admiration..........-
DCN [/B][/QUOTE]

I am sorry mr Nye but this is, in my humble opinion, wrong.
I have all the books of Sir Jackie Stewart, and they are inspirational everytime I re-read them.
I have never heard an interview with him, boring or useless. Sir Jackie Stewart explain his thoughts, his experiences, his ideas, his moods, and he is very careful or political or gentle enough to say nothing unpolite to the journalist. When he reply he is intelligent and above all, he teach something new, ideas or opinions, or points of view coming from his knowledge of motor racing. He understood the importance of "PR" and " image"
long before they invented the application of this words to the motor racing environment.
I am among those:
"shrewd audience to place it upon a pedestal and dance around it in unreserved admiration"
not because I am a fan, but because I know that I would learn something new.
It would be a dream for me to ask him all the questions I have in mind. A real dream.

Ciao to all.
MonzaDriver.

[f1steveuk]

The relationship between MM and BCE is far to incestuous for it's own good. The President of the FIA is technically a voluntry position, but he does get more than exspenses, and of course he is vice president of FOM, which is, I believe, a paying position.

Quite why BCE and MM are so "anti" Stewart, I really don't know (witness the Stewart GP teams treatment in Monaco), but it does go way back. Used to be quite entertaining in the paddock!

There were some rumours that MM is showing the early signs of Parkinsons, which doesn't excuse his comments, even if true.

I found him very hard work to interact with, and not as "up to date" as he thought he was.

Economical with the truth? Most certainly. I recall the statment that he stood unopposed in the election for FIA president, whereas I know the other three names put forward, whose applications arrived before the deadline, and strangely went missing untill just afterwards. I would venture it does need new blood in the position, someone a little more in touch, willing to listen a bit more. Form a line chaps!

[Doug Nye]

MonzaDriver - I fear you have entirely misunderstood. The lines you quoted were not by me.

DCN

[EcosseF1]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by f1steveuk
The relationship between MM and BCE is far to incestuous for it's own good. The President of the FIA is technically a voluntry position, but he does get more than exspenses, and of course he is vice president of FOM, which is, I believe, a paying position.
[/QUOTE

Exactly, how can you be in charge of the governing body as well as being VP of the company which holds the commercial rights? It stinks and always has.

[Lotus11Register]

A few years ago when Max Mosley announced he would leave his post as FIA chief, several reports mentioned Jackie Stewart as a possible president. True, these may have been hysterical bloggers at work but there didn't seem to be a very long list of replacement candidates. Then Max changed his mind.

How does this FIA president get replaced if he doesn't do it himself?

[Todd]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
If indeed Mosley said any of the above, in my experience a small proportion is not without foundation - JYS does tend to make a pronouncement and then expect even the most knowledgeable and shrewd audience to place it upon a pedestal and dance around it in unreserved admiration - but for the elected head of worldwide motor sport's governing body to go so much further to deride a former triple World Champion in this way is 'surprising' (at the very least) and surely throws doubt upon his surviving judgment?

DCN

Perhaps Max Mosley's patience has been eroded by JYS' conduct over what is approaching a decade now. Stewart's era had just ended when I started following F1, but I always thought him to be one of the greats. I was interested in his commentary, followed his various Ford promotions, adopted his smooth deliberation in my driving style. Max, on the other hand, I consider to be a complete bag of pus. I can't think of the last time he had an idea where I didn't immediately perceive how it would reduce the value of formula 1 racing. But I agree with him here. Stewart has had to deal with the illness of his son, with selling off the team they were building together, with hiring Jan Magnussen. I suppose he can be forgiven, but that doesn't make anything Mosley said about him untrue.

[Ross Stonefeld]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by EcosseF1
[QUOTE]Originally posted by f1steveuk
The relationship between MM and BCE is far to incestuous for it's own good. The President of the FIA is technically a voluntry position, but he does get more than exspenses, and of course he is vice president of FOM, which is, I believe, a paying position.
[/QUOTE

Exactly, how can you be in charge of the governing body as well as being VP of the company which holds the commercial rights? It stinks and always has. [/QUOTE]

Look into MotoGP sometime.

[Allen Brown]

There are some interesting view being expressed here. I haven't met Jackie or heard enough interviews to challenge Doug's view on him but I do find the negativity about Mosley a bit hard to accept.

Introducing his parents into this is completely and utterly unacceptable in my view. Whether one was seriously misguided and the other, like her sisters, very slightly bonkers, has no bearing whatsover on Max's value as a human being. Also, whether or not March went bust in the long run they were one of the most successful constructors of the 1970s winning more in F2 and F3 than anyone else and winning three or four GPs, IIRC, more than Hesketh, more than Surtees, more than Penske, more than Shadow ...

Please let's stick to the facts, as that great officer of the law would say. I'm sure there's a parallel thread on RC that would be a better home for some of these posts.

[kayemod]

Originally posted by Allen Brown

Please let's stick to the facts, as that great officer of the law would say. I'm sure there's a parallel thread on RC that would be a better home for some of these posts.

But have you actually seen that parallel thread on RC ? Believe me, it's bigots' corner.

[Doug Nye]

Oh dear - when I was daft enough to launch this thread, and tired enough to mispell its title - I hoped it would bring some interesting recollections and yarns about past authority figures leaving the rails.

But no. What we have seems to be driven by some of the yah-boo postings a la Racing Comments, which reveal more about the writer than about the subject - as did MM himself, it appears - while progressing our sum knowledge not one jot. I can only apologise for having launched this one in the first place. I should have known better, so sorry fellers.

DCN

[Huw Jadvantich]

I would have hoped that someone at the top of a governing body particularly with a legal background would have the intelligence to keep his personal fueds and dislikes to himself since his job is to be an elected arbritrator. That Moseley is and does not shows what a grubby man he is. The treatment that he and his car salesman mate have lashed out on Stewart, Dennis and others they choose to dislike are a telling indication of how power corrupts.
I have met Jackie Stewart on several occaisions and he is nothing but a top bloke, despite a slightly unusual sense of style in his later years.
In this context Stewart is not an elected arbritrator or spokesman for anybody, merely someone who is constantly asked for an opinion, as are Stirling Moss and Niki Lauda - knowledgable elder statesmen of the sport who are asked for their opinion and then trashed for giving the view from their vantage point.

having elderly children in charge of motorsport is its undoing.

[Hieronymus]

Originally posted by Hieronymus
Ban the words "Max Mosley" from this Forum.

ditto

[RacingMonk]

It's OK Doug, we still love you.

At least King Rufus hasn't got round to inviting any roller skating bimbos into the pitlane.

Come everyone, lets dress as Buhddhist monks and march on the Place de la Concorde.

[FLB]

Originally posted by RacingMonk
It's OK Doug, we still love you.

At least King Rufus hasn't got round to inviting any roller skating bimbos into the pitlane.

Come everyone, lets dress as Buhddhist monks and march on the Place de la Concorde.

Thank you, you've just given this thread a proper use:

Cobra for ever!

(For those who have no idea, find the 1991 Magny-Cours edition of Brabham's fanzine...)

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Oh dear - when I was daft enough to launch this thread, and tired enough to mispell its title - I hoped it would bring some interesting recollections and yarns about past authority figures leaving the rails.

I have to be honest...rather Max with all his foibles than Balestre. I get the feeling the former does a lot we don't know about (the greenies have been strangely reluctant to picket Grands Prix). The latter was dangerous. Was he the first to turn the head of AIACR/FISA/FIA/whatever into some sort of fiefdom for the promotion of self rather than motorsport?

[bradbury west]

[i]Originally posted by ensign14
I have to be honest...rather Max with all his foibles than Balestre. [/B]

As an aside, IIRC, some time ago I was told that Balestre had a Lotus 15 in the 1980s, possibly ex ZA, and someone else came up with a car claiming the same chassis number, or am I mistaken, Bill Colson??

Roger Lund.

[MonzaDriver]

Originally posted by Doug Nye


If indeed Mosley said any of the above, in my experience a small proportion is not without foundation - JYS does tend to make a pronouncement and then expect even the most knowledgeable and shrewd audience to place it upon a pedestal and dance around it in unreserved admiration - but for the elected head of worldwide motor sport's governing body to go so much further to deride a former triple World Champion in this way is 'surprising' (at the very least) and surely throws doubt upon his surviving judgment?


DCN

I am sorry mr Nye but this is, in my humble opinion, wrong.
I have all the books of Sir Jackie Stewart, and they are inspirational everytime I re-read them.
I have never heard an interview with him, boring or useless. Sir Jackie Stewart explain his thoughts, his experiences, his ideas, his moods, and he is very careful or political or gentle enough to say nothing unpolite to the journalist. When he reply he is intelligent and above all, he teach something new, ideas or opinions, or points of view coming from his knowledge of motor racing. He understood the importance of "PR" and " image"
long before they invented the application of this words to the motor racing environment.
I am among those:
"shrewd audience to place it upon a pedestal and dance around it in unreserved admiration"
not because I am a fan, but because I know that I would learn something new.
It would be a dream for me to ask him all the questions I have in mind. A real dream.

Ciao to all.
MonzaDriver.

[MonzaDriver]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Oh dear - when I was daft enough to launch this thread, and tired enough to mispell its title - I hoped it would bring some interesting recollections and yarns about past authority figures leaving the rails.

But no. What we have seems to be driven by some of the yah-boo postings a la Racing Comments, which reveal more about the writer than about the subject - as did MM himself, it appears - while progressing our sum knowledge not one jot. I can only apologise for having launched this one in the first place. I should have known better, so sorry fellers.

DCN

This kind of spirit, or false irony, really has nothing to do with the spirit of this forum, in my opinion.

MonzaDriver.

[MonzaDriver]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
.................. It's not terribly far from an accurate appraisal of JYS current being............

Or maybe it's the case that you dont understand what Sir Jackie try to explain.
There is so big difference between motor racing of Stewart's years, and today motor racing that you like so much, that it's like a conversation between people from different worlds.

And I am not surprised that today establishment of F1, look at him, with some superior air or false benevolence, but it's not because Jackie Stewart it's a ghost from the past, that try to regain his scene, it' really because they dont understand, or dont care about it.

MonzaDriver.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Regardless of what JYS is saying, he is a legendary talker.

[R.W. Mackenzie]

If Mr. Mosley did make those remarks he should be fined $100 million (US) and have all of his frequent flier points taken away (for bringing the sport into disrepute)!

Bob Mackenzie

[RA Historian]

Originally posted by R.W. Mackenzie
If Mr. Mosley did make those remarks he should be fined $100 million (US) and have all of his frequent flier points taken away (for bringing the sport into disrepute)!

Bob Mackenzie