26 replies to this topic

[dretceterini]

Difficult to find in English. The last copy I saw sold for $700 a few years ago at the Society of Autromotive Historian's annual swap meet in Los Angeles...

[Ted Walker]

I beleive that a re-print might be on the cards

[Henk Vasmel]

Please not. I know it is a very valuable book for what it contains alone, never mind its rarity. But if every book in my collection that gets valuable will be reprinted, I never get rich. Mind you, I wouldn't dream of ever selling it, and at the moment I don't care about those that will inherit my possessions. Now if someone starts reprinting the expensive books that I do not own........

[Doug Nye]

How about a reprint which not only reproduces all those sublime Scuderia Ferrari photographs to modern standards but which also adds more...?

DCN

[Henk Vasmel]

My previous post was tongue-in-cheek, which you no doubt discovered right away. However on this subject I am a bit more serious. I definitely do not like expensive items being reissued with just a little bit extra, to force the fans to buy the same thing twice. It only happens occasionally with motoring books, but is very common in CD reissuing. If you really are a completist, you have to buy the next "enhanced" issue with a Bonus Track (all of 1 minute 30 seconds) and two new pictures (which turn out to be new only to be new to the CD, because you have already seen them in a magazine), only to find out that not a year later we have the xxth anniversary commemorative edition, with two new Bonus Tracks, one of which had been released on a limited edition CD (in your collection) before, and the other one a different Mix of the HIT, which is audibly indistinguishable from the original. It really irritates me enormously, and I sincerely hope that the publishing of Motoring books doesn't go down the same route. Publish a companion volume if more material is unearthed, so that the real fans, the ones that bought the original book as soon as it appeared, are neither left out, nor forced to buy the same book again.

Regards,

Henk Vasmel

[Doug Nye]

Since 'Scuderia Ferrari' was first published in 1979, then the English edition around 1982, any potential reprint to 21st century standards would HARDLY be comparable with the frequency of music industry repackaging, or perhaps soccer team strip replacement - would it?

DCN

[bradbury west]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
How about a reprint which not only reproduces all those sublime Scuderia Ferrari photographs to modern standards but which also adds more...?

DCN

But Doug, my real fantasy is a massive photo book with erudite and accurate notes, based on personal, period colour photos taken by someone there at the time in all the right places, say by a former World Champion and brilliant sports car racer who was also a brilliant compositional photographer.........

Roger Lund.

[Ted Walker]

Hurry up Doug !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SWB]

The irony is that if a book is any good it gets used no matter what the value.

I have had the English version since it was published, and only last week backed my office chair into it while it was open on the floor... $700 you say? Not mine :

[dretceterini]

The one for sale at the SAH literature fair was at least 5 years ago, and was in good and not mint condition....

[mcerqueira]

Originally posted by Henk Vasmel
My previous post was tongue-in-cheek, which you no doubt discovered right away. However on this subject I am a bit more serious. I definitely do not like expensive items being reissued with just a little bit extra, to force the fans to buy the same thing twice. It only happens occasionally with motoring books, but is very common in CD reissuing. If you really are a completist, you have to buy the next "enhanced" issue with a Bonus Track (all of 1 minute 30 seconds) and two new pictures (which turn out to be new only to be new to the CD, because you have already seen them in a magazine), only to find out that not a year later we have the xxth anniversary commemorative edition, with two new Bonus Tracks, one of which had been released on a limited edition CD (in your collection) before, and the other one a different Mix of the HIT, which is audibly indistinguishable from the original. It really irritates me enormously, and I sincerely hope that the publishing of Motoring books doesn't go down the same route. Publish a companion volume if more material is unearthed, so that the real fans, the ones that bought the original book as soon as it appeared, are neither left out, nor forced to buy the same book again.

Regards,

Henk Vasmel

Oh the irony... aren't you yourself getting into the collectors way of thought trap? I mean if there's a reissue with "just a little bit extra", two photos or a new 3 page chapter, why bother getting it? On the other hand if there's a massive update then it might make sense. Anyway, to each it's own (including collectors) just poking you (where's the poking smiley?)

I personally don't care at all for limited issue items, leather covers (the latter I find very un-aesthetic even), etc. On the other hand I do put a premium on good paper quality, great photography and layout and of course, great text. All other things being fair (i.e. somebody isn't trying to rip somebody off), hurray for re-prints.

[Paul Parker]

I've got a mint one, so there neeeaaaarrhh.

La Scuderia Ferrari that is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Henk Vasmel]

Originally posted by mcerqueira


Oh the irony... aren't you yourself getting into the collectors way of thought trap? I mean if there's a reissue with "just a little bit extra", two photos or a new 3 page chapter, why bother getting it? On the other hand if there's a massive update then it might make sense. Anyway, to each it's own (including collectors) just poking you (where's the poking smiley?)

I personally don't care at all for limited issue items, leather covers (the latter I find very un-aesthetic even), etc. On the other hand I do put a premium on good paper quality, great photography and layout and of course, great text. All other things being fair (i.e. somebody isn't trying to rip somebody off), hurray for re-prints.

Well, yes, I am a collector and a completist, so it irritates me when something becomes available that I don't have yet (at least on one of my favourite subjects), and forces me to reinvest in what I already have. Fortunately, just like you, I don't care for fancy editions, the only thing to attract me there is an autographed edition. For the rest, I strictly go for content. Most of my books get used in my investigations into "old" races, and their participants.
To name but one example (the author might recognize it), a recent reprint of Powered By Jaguar contained a straight reprint of the original book (I don't know about error correcting. I know the author isn't known to make many of these (errors I mean, not corrections), but his original sources might have been flawed). After that there were 8 pages with colour shots, pretty and nice to have, but far from essential. And last but not least, 32 new pages with a chassis register. I fell for that, and have now an old book that contains exactly nothing worthwhile, because it has all been superceded by the more recent one. And among its 168 pages, one or two bits of data may have been quietly adapted, without me being able to find it, short of comparing the two books word for word.
Another, vastly more irritating example is when you finally find a history on some model which has been treated as a stepchild up to then, and jumping to buy it. Then after a year (or so) the second corrected and expanded edition becomes available, supposedly filled with input of readers who found the first edition flawed. This may go on up to the 4th or 5th edition, or maybe stop at the second one. There is always enough new ground to cover to prevent me to invest in the same book over and over again, but rather go for other books (equally interesting and a different subject) instead.
Yet I know that my "valuable" first edition contains incomplete and erroneous information, even though I paid for (what the blurb said) the definite history.
No chance for owners of these first editions to trade them in for the next edition, as far as I know.

Of course, there is nothing against straight reissues, which open up the subject to a wider (younger?) audience. Yet for new content, I would prefer to see a new book, or the old one reworked so much that it is virtually a new one, where the old one can stand proudly next to the new one on your shelves.

Regards,

Henk Vasmel

[dretceterini]

Originally posted by Paul Parker
I've got a mint one, so there neeeaaaarrhh.

La Scuderia Ferrari that is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mine is only in good condition, but as I paid something like $20 for it 20+ years ago, I would buy a reissue if it had additional information and was under $100.....

[Paul Parker]

Please forgive my childish sense of humour.

[bradbury west]

O/T and taking Zagari on his own for a moment, I always enjoy looking through his book on Nuvolari with those superb period photos. For Nuvolari there is also the Valerio Moretti book, When Nuvolari Raced.

Roger Lund.

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by Henk Vasmel


Well, yes, I am a collector and a completist, so it irritates me when something becomes available that I don't have yet (at least on one of my favourite subjects), and forces me to reinvest in what I already have.

To name but one example (the author might recognize it), a recent reprint of Powered By Jaguar contained a straight reprint of the original book (I don't know about error correcting. I know the author isn't known to make many of these (errors I mean, not corrections), but his original sources might have been flawed). After that there were 8 pages with colour shots, pretty and nice to have, but far from essential. And last but not least, 32 new pages with a chassis register. I fell for that, and have now an old book that contains exactly nothing worthwhile, because it has all been superceded by the more recent one. And among its 168 pages, one or two bits of data may have been quietly adapted, without me being able to find it, short of comparing the two books word for word. Henk Vasmel

On the basis that one's outlook on life is either that the glass is half full, or half empty, I find the above faintly irritating. This is because producing the 40 pages of new material in the 'Powered by Jaguar' reprint - which came about not upon my suggestion but the publisher's - occupied something like four months of my life, and if you, Henk, now feel hard done by in that you have "an old book that contains exactly nothing worthwhile" cluttering up your shelves I will happily offer you the price you paid for it in order to relieve you of its onerous presence.

I should add that the notion of a 'Scuderia Ferrari' re-visit is only - as yet - a possibility, while the other picture book project mentioned by Bradbury above remains very, very much in the forefront of all our thoughts and efforts at this very moment. "Contains exactly nothing worthwhile" indeed....

DCN

[Paul Parker]

Anything that adds to or discovers fresh information about a given subject, no matter how esoteric is surely desirable.

I bought the Powered by Jaguar update automatically, not least because DCN always does the job properly no matter how long it takes. There are numerous 'definitive' works that would benefit from re-writing and/or reprinting, not necessarily due to any lack of knowledge, effort or ability on behalf of the original author(s), but because standards have risen, driven by authors like Doug.

Better repro and design also make a big difference but in general there is more info available, some of it first or second hand thanks to forums like this, instead of the frequently superficial material produced decades ago.

Personally until or unless I become enfeebled and have to sell my archive to pay for the next medical bill/meal etc., I could not give a toss if any given 'historic' book is devalued by a latter day re-write or additions, and I own a lot of them.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Henk Vasmel
I fell for that, and have now an old book that contains exactly nothing worthwhile, because it has all been superceded by the more recent one.

In spite of what you say, HV, it seems very much that you buy books for investment, nothing more.
I bought Powered by Jaguar when it first came out in 1980 and do not mind in the slightest that, after 27 years, there is now a better version (which of course I also have)

[bradbury west]

Originally posted by Henk Vasmel

Well, yes, I am a collector and a completist, .... the only thing to attract me there is an autographed edition. For the rest, I strictly go for content. Most of my books get used in my investigations into "old" races, and their participants.................there were 8 pages with colour shots, ......And last but not least, 32 new pages with a chassis register. .........for (what the blurb said) the definite history.

Henk Vasmel

Henk,
Disregarding what I regard as the unpleasant tone of your writing, and the hostile content, neither of which will find a ready welcome on this Forum, I suspect, you surprise me somewhat. You claim to be an historian or researcher, yet resent access to new information, unless autographed, the chassis register being a point in question. When DCN wrote the book historic racing was literally a different world away, but we are fortunate that there were people like him, along with other proper historians of his ilk, who kept meticulous records and wrote accurate histories and articles, quod vide the DCN pieces in the magazines in the 70s and 80s especially. I suspect that much of your own work would be nigh, pun intended, impossible if you had to research and source your own information and statistics, without the access to exiting works which is so readily available. I know from my own experience just how time consuming and expensive unresearched matter can be.

Just as there are those who scoff at people who pay Palawan prices, no one forces you to purchase any book. We all make a conscious decision whether to buy something or not. There was no claim, AFAIK, that it was a new book, but an update, which should be self explanatory.

You are entitled to your own views, especially when they are of such a specific and personal nature, and whether accurate or not, but I feel that they are better to suited to other places. Diatribes such as yours are not why this Forum exists.

On a personal note, for the benefit on any readers which you might attract, I hope that your own writings do not regularly display the prolixity of expression which your posting suggests.

Roger Lund.

[dretceterini]

I think the biggest problem for a lot of us is that new books that are worthwhile have gotten rather expensive. I can think of at least a dozen I would like to have, but simply can not realistically afford....such as Tony Ardiaensen's Fiat 8V/Siata book....

[Henk Vasmel]

Dear all,

I think I failed in making myself clear, because lot of the reactions seem to miss the point I was trying to make. But first an apology to Doug Nye, who seems to have been irritated, which certainly was not my intention. I always consider books by him as very worthwhile additions to my library, and regularly refer back to them as most reliable sources of information. The appendix to the "Powered by Jaguar" book was an excellent example of work by DCN which I wouldn't want to miss. Thanks for the offer to pay me back for the original one, but my intentions are not financial, and that's not the point I was making. Usually, if I find myself in the possession of two copies of the same thing, I would most likely give it away to someone for whom it is new, and I would keep the one with the better content (if different), regardless of the respective financial values.
The expression "nothing worthwhile" is not meant to say that what is in the book is worth nothing per se, but putting the two books together, after taking in everything in the latest book, there is nothing to be found in the older one that adds to it, because it is all in the more recent one as well. This is strictly seen from the contents side, and not from the financial side.

The suggestion from David McKinney could not be further from the truth. I collect my books because I want to know about motor racing history, nothing more, nothing less. I do not plan ever to part with them during my lifetime, and I have no heirs that I would want to benefit from their proceeds.

To Roger Lund, I certainly was unclear about what I intended to say about autographed versions. What you understood is the complete reverse of what I intended. Let's try again. I always go for the "plain vanilla" versions of any books, never for the special deluxe versions. The only thing that I make an exception for is an autographed version. I always especially appreciate if a writer specifically signs a book for me. After all, he has been working on the subject for a long time, and now I am about to study (not browse) what he did and live the same experiences. If I can't get one, that is no problem. I probably don't have more than about 20 autographed books in my collection.

I fully agree with Dr. Etceterini. If you look at what you get from a book, some are priced prohibitively for those that have a budget to balance. I am rather fortunate in that I have a decent income and not too many obligations, so I can spend quite a lot on motoring books. Yet the 8V/Siata book is one that I had been looking at for years, knowing that it contained lots that I wanted to know, yet considering it too expensive (for my budget, not for what it offers). Last summer, I finally did purchase it, and I haven't regretted it once. It really is a superb book, and I learned a lot from it.

Again, I apologize to all of you, especially those that felt irritated. It is a common pitfall of E-mailing that you write a piece of text with a certain idea in mind, and when it arrives at the other side, it turns out to convey a wholly different meaning. This has happened to me before, and I am definitely not the only one. I hope you will forgive me for that. Be assured that the main aim of my studies of the history of motor sport is to find out as much as humanly possible about who drove what, where and when, to what result.

Kind Regards,

Henk Vasmel

[TIPO61]

Dear Mr. Nye.
I would/will happily reimburse you for your re-purchase of that book.
Happily.

[Henk Vasmel]

Another remark to Mr. Roger Lund. I missed it the first time around, but your snipping of my text suggests that you link my last sentence with (about the definitive work) with my previous remarks on the book by Doug Nye. Actually the last two paragraphs refer to quite different works and reissues. I should have made more clear that I had changed to a different subject, and I can see now how you read it, which is also possible, but not at all what I intended. It was clear to me when I was writing it, because I had the subject(s) clearly in mind, but failed to convey what I intended.
I was thinking of a certain book, most definitely not by Mr. Nye, which promised a complete history, only for a second edition to appear not long afterwards, which made all my notes obsolete. And then a third edition appears, with yet different data. My budget doesn't include the possibilities of buying all these updates, and I am now left with a book with doubtful content. Ideally, I only need the last edition, but how do I ever know which will be the last one.
Doug Nye is a good example of a writer who researches well, and therefore doesn't have to retract older statements as much as some others. Therefore also his older books can be well reprinted as is, because they are still well written (that never changes) and factually correct.

It is unfortunate that a remark that was intended to be a general one could be taken to refer specifically to Mr. Nye, through a bad selection of an example by me. It is just that this was the first book that sprang to my mind as a reissue, because I had just been reminded of it's author's name.

The fault of the misunderstanding lies completely at my side, because I didn't make myself clear enough, and I promise to be more careful in the future.

Friends again?

Henk Vasmel

[Doug Nye]

Henk - it takes a proper chap to go to as much trouble as you have above. Thank you for making the effort - and I really do sympathise with the notion that shades of meaning can sometimes be misread. Goodness knows that has happened to me often enough. I should add that I always feel particularly humbled when those to whom English is not, perhaps, their native language in fact demonstrate such near-perfect command of it...

DCN