46 replies to this topic

[Peter Morley]

I'd like to know what happened to the 3 litre Cooper F1 cars e.g. the Cooper Maseratis & BRMs etc.
And their current condition - e.g. un-restored, being restored or ready to race.

The list I have so far is as follows:

T73 V12 Ferrari F1-2-64 Jacob Engineering UK
T77 V8 ATS F1-1-65

T80 V12 Maserati F1-1-66
T81 V12 Maserati F1-2-66
F1-3-66
F1-4-66 became F1-7-66, Jean Guikas sold in 2002
F1-5-66 Donington
F1-6-66
F1-7-66 Jean Guikas sold 2002 (originally F1-4-66)

T81B V12 Maserati F1-1-67
T86 V12 Maserati F1-2-67 Ben Liebert

T86B V12 BRM F1-1-68 Sid Hoole – for sale 2002
F1-2-68
F1-4-68
T86C V8 Alfa T33 F1-3-68 Ron Maydon


Also IIRC someone said at least one of the Pearce F1 cars has survived, does anyone know anymore about that car and its current condition.

[Macca]

F1-2-66 was the Rob Walker car, which was destroyed in the fire at Pippbrook, together with a Lotus 18/21 and Lotus 49/R5.

Paul M

[bschenker]

T77 V8 ATS F1-1-65

Photo from Erich Walitsch

Owner is Urban Fässler Hinwil (CH)
hi will bring it's back to 1.5l Climax status, like used by Jochen Rindt

.

[Vicuna]

www.oldracingcars.com

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by Vicuna
www.oldracingcars.com

Allen doesn't say where the cars are now.

I've also found F1-1-66 = Bernie Ecclestone

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Peter Morley


Allen doesn't say where the cars are now.

That's not unusual, Peter. Allen usually knows, but often has to respect the wishes of owners who've ticked the "no publicity" box.;)

[Macca]

Originally posted by Peter Morley


Allen doesn't say where the cars are now.

I've also found F1-1-66 = Bernie Ecclestone

Interesting...........the T80 was the car built for the flat-16 Climax FWMW. The other two cars built for it, the Lotus 39 and Brabham BT19, have a long, successful, and continuous history in their 'converted' forms; but the FWMV engines still exist, though they have never been run in a car............so if one is reunited with the T80 chassis, maybe we might see and hear the Cooper one day at the Festival of Speed.

Paul M

[Gerard Gamand]

Peter,

For me the F1-4-66 was the car drived by Guy Ligier and destroyed in his crash at Nurburgring the 7 august 1966

The F1-7-66 was the third car engaged by Cooper for Chris Amon the 3 july for the French GP.

It seems to be "two" different chassis ??

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by Vitesse2

That's not unusual, Peter. Allen usually knows, but often has to respect the wishes of owners who've ticked the "no publicity" box.;)

I do understand the no publicity aspect, but it is amazing that you can locate most 3 liter F1 cars without much effort, except for the Coopers.
Maybe the Coopers haven't been restored/raced whereas the other cars have been, but it appears that Coopers keep an incredibly low profile compared to other makes.

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by Macca


Interesting...........the T80 was the car built for the flat-16 Climax FWMW. The other two cars built for it, the Lotus 39 and Brabham BT19, have a long, successful, and continuous history in their 'converted' forms; but the FWMV engines still exist, though they have never been run in a car............so if one is reunited with the T80 chassis, maybe we might see and hear the Cooper one day at the Festival of Speed.

Paul M

OOOOOPS

It should be F1-1- 67, T81B not the T80.

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by Gerard Gamand
Peter,

For me the F1-4-66 was the car drived by Guy Ligier and destroyed in his crash at Nurburgring the 7 august 1966

The F1-7-66 was the third car engaged by Cooper for Chris Amon the 3 july for the French GP.

It seems to be "two" different chassis ??

According to the documentation of F1-4-66:

Ligier crashed F1-4-66 at the Nurburgring and it was beyond repair, so he didn't race again in 1966.

For 1967 Cooper sold him F1-7-66, the last 1966 works car.
They painted it blue and fitted his Maserati engine, no. 9005
And re-numbered it F1-4-66 so that he could continue to use his customs documentation.

[Gerard Gamand]

Thanks Peter

So, they were two different cars.

[bill patterson]

I seem to remember a T81B being sold at one of the 2002 Monaco Auctions - it came from the Walter Grell collection and needed restoration

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by Gerard Gamand
Thanks Peter

So, they were two different cars.

Yes but they became the same!!!!
OK no. 4 was destroyed and later replaced by no. 7
Really the list should say no. 4 was written off and no. 7 became no. 4 and was sold by Jean Guikas in 2002.

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by bill patterson
I seem to remember a T81B being sold at one of the 2002 Monaco Auctions - it came from the Walter Grell collection and needed restoration

That was white (F1-2-67) at the time, bought by Ben Liebert to go with the Eagle, restored pretty quickly and offered at several auctions when it was green with white stripes.
I don't know if Ben Liebert still has it (or the Eagle either).

[Racer.Demon]

Originally posted by Peter Morley

I don't know if Ben Liebert still has it

Didn't he drive it in the Salvadori tribute during the Revival Meeting?

[Macca]

Yes, that was T86 that he drove at the Festival a couple of years ago.

Didn't Jonty Williamson have a T81 with a 7.2-L Chrysler?


Paul M

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by Macca
Yes, that was T86 that he drove at the Festival a couple of years ago.

Didn't Jonty Williamson have a T81 with a 7.2-L Chrysler?

Paul M

Just read a book by some bloke called Nye, that fills in a few gaps!!

F1-2-66 converted to Cegga Maserati
F1-6-66 sold to Mitsubishi
F1-2-68 written off at Spa

Martin Brain had two large engined Coopers (one had the 7.2L Chrysler engine):
T87 FL-1-67
T81B F1/1/67
Then he bought a T86B BRM which he was killed in.

Peter Hanton (spelling? can't read my own writing!) had an 86B with a Chevrlet that he was killed in.

BUT:
If F1-2-66 was the Rob Walker car that was destroyed in the garage fire, which car was the Cegga Maserati based on?
Could it have been the T80 = F1-1-66?

[David McKinney]

That'll be Peter Hawtin

I have a note saying F1-1-66 went to Georges Gachnang in Switzerland and became the Cegga-Maserati
I have another note saying F1-2-66 was rebuilt as a sportscar in Switzerland

(Not very helpful, am I)

[Macca]

On another website this is said to be the Cegga-Maserati (or maybe A Cegga-Maserati..........4-cyl engine in a FJ chassis?

http://forum.rscnet....02&d=1067208608

Paul M

edit: seen a model of a hideous centre-seat red sports-prototype.........that must be the ex-T81)

edit again: previous thread with pics-
http://forums.autosp...?threadid=54680

[David McKinney]

There were several Ceggae - Ferrari and Maserati, single-seater and sportscar

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by David McKinney
That'll be Peter Hawtin

I have a note saying F1-1-66 went to Georges Gachnang in Switzerland and became the Cegga-Maserati
I have another note saying F1-2-66 was rebuilt as a sportscar in Switzerland

(Not very helpful, am I)

Was the T80 a spaceframe car? (T81 was apparently Cooper's first monocoque), if so it would make most sense if F1-1-66 became the last Cegga Maserati (the one with a V12, earlier Maserati one had 4 cylinders).

There are pictures of that car on another thread in this forum, and a posting from the builders son who said his father rebuilt it after his last accident - presumably in sportscar rather than F1 form!!
http://forums.autosp...?postid=2372465

Having seen photos of the remains of the Rob Walker Cooper after the fire there wasn't anything usable - the reamains of F1-2-66 were an unlikely basis for anything (prior to historic racing at least!).

Can we agree that F1-1-66 became the Cegga Maserati?
That just leaves the task of persuading the owner to convert it back to an F1 car.....

[raceannouncer2003]

At the 2006 Monaco Historique:

(NUMBER) 7 (ENTRANT) HISTORIC TEAM (DRIVER) COMELLI Massimo (ITA) (CLASS) 1 (CAR) COOPER T86B (YEAR) 1968

So which one would that be?

Vince H.

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by raceannouncer2003
At the 2006 Monaco Historique:

(NUMBER) 7 (ENTRANT) HISTORIC TEAM (DRIVER) COMELLI Massimo (ITA) (CLASS) 1 (CAR) COOPER T86B (YEAR) 1968

So which one would that be?

Vince H.

Probably F1-1-68 that Sid Hoole raced/advertised a few years ago.

[macoran]

Originally posted by Macca
On another website this is said to be the Cegga-Maserati (or maybe A Cegga-Maserati..........4-cyl engine in a FJ chassis?

http://forum.rscnet....02&d=1067208608

Paul M

Are my eyes fooling me or does this car have assymetrical suspension?

[bschenker]

I think is al normal. The car is in a right corner, may by inclined.

.

[Pedro 917]

81 2 67 Goodwood FoS 2006 :
Post 179

[Allen Brown]

Originally posted by Peter Morley
Can we agree that F1-1-66 became the Cegga Maserati?

No, we can't!

To pick up the earlier point about why I don't publish names of owners of F1 cars on OldRacingCars.com, it's because a fight breaks out almost every time I do. Publishing a complete list here would keep me in lawsuits for ages to come!

On the F2s and F5000s, values are lower and so are tempers. So I publish pretty much everything I know.

Allen

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
No, we can't!

To pick up the earlier point about why I don't publish names of owners of F1 cars on OldRacingCars.com, it's because a fight breaks out almost every time I do. Publishing a complete list here would keep me in lawsuits for ages to come!

On the F2s and F5000s, values are lower and so are tempers. So I publish pretty much everything I know.

Allen

No problem.
What I really needed to know is which cars are still around and in running condition (reason will become clear in the future).
The names I have found come from entry lists or adverts, so were already in the public domain - any lawsuit would have to be directed at someone other than me!

[Allen Brown]

I think I know why you're asking and it's something I tried to get inolved with earlier but was overwhelmed by other pressures on my time. If you need a nod or a wink to send you in the right direction, drop me an email.

Allen

[Allen Brown]

What's in the public domain doesn't always have a direct relationship to what can be established as factual. I really couldn't say whether that's an issue with this particular group of cars.

[FLB]

With a very heavy grain of salt:

SpeedTV just showed a 1-hour résumé of the 2007 Monterey Historics. They interviewed many owners in their race shops. One of these interviews was with a man named Gary Schroeder. What I found interesting is that in the background of this particular interview, there was a car that very much looked to have the red livery (with white stripes) of a Cooper-Maserati, circa 1966-67.

Of course, I may have completely hallucinated, but has anybody else here seen the SpeedTV show?

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by FLB
With a very heavy grain of salt:

SpeedTV just showed a 1-hour résumé of the 2007 Monterey Historics. They interviewed many owners in their race shops. One of these interviews was with a man named Gary Schroeder. What I found interesting is that in the background of this particular interview, there was a car that very much looked to have the red livery (with white stripes) of a Cooper-Maserati, circa 1966-67.

Of course, I may have completely hallucinated, but has anybody else here seen the SpeedTV show?

Haven't seen SpeedTV, but will look for Monterey reports, maybe one of the channels we get here might show the same programme.

The Cooper Maserati at Donington is red with white stripes, I think that was (is?) the only red one.

[raceannouncer2003]

Originally posted by FLB
has anybody else here seen the SpeedTV show?

I saw the SpeedTV show and I was at Monterey. I didn't notice a car like that in the TV show or in person. There wasn't a race on the weekend that would have iincluded a '66-'67 Cooper-Maserati. The closest would have been some Cooper formula juniors. Not to say such a car wasn't there, just that I didn't notice one.

Vince H.

[FLB]

Originally posted by raceannouncer2003


I saw the SpeedTV show and I was at Monterey. I didn't notice a car like that in the TV show or in person. There wasn't a race on the weekend that would have iincluded a '66-'67 Cooper-Maserati. The closest would have been some Cooper formula juniors. Not to say such a car wasn't there, just that I didn't notice one.

Vince H.

The interview didn't seem to have taken place at Monterey, but rather in a race shop. Speed visited several collections, including Tom Malloy's. I'll be waiting for a replay, that is if they can decide to show it again instead of the 95th replay of a Pinks episode...

[simonlewisbooks]

This photo

appears on the PERSONAL PHOTOS FROM THE HILLS with several other Cooper shots from the late 60s-early 70s.

I thought it was Ian Swift but apparently not. It's Prescott in 1972 and the engine appears to be a Chrysler.Any ideas?

[Peter Morley]

Drivers of hillclimb Cooper Maseratis with big V8s included: Martin Brain; Clive Oakley & Peter Hawtin could it be one of those?

[simonlewisbooks]

Originally posted by Peter Morley
Drivers of hillclimb Cooper Maseratis with big V8s included: Martin Brain; Clive Oakley & Peter Hawtin could it be one of those?

Poor Brain had already been killed by this point in time. I recall talking to John Hewitt at a Prescott event earlier this year, he said he had owned the car in the photo at one time and said it definitely wasn't Swift - who had a Ford engine apparently and the car was termed a Cooper-Cobra.
I think it may be Terry Smith ?

[Allen Brown]

You're right, he had the car in 1972

[simonlewisbooks]

Which Chassis was it Allen?

[Allen Brown]

Cooper T81B F1-1-67

[simonlewisbooks]

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Cooper T81B F1-1-67

Cheers Allen. Quite a history then? Rindt, Rodriguez, Ickx, Redman, Attwood . I can't imagine that any recent F1 chassis (as in:from the past 3 decades!) has played host to anything like as many great names.

This driver line up makes you think - between them they share something like 9 Le Mans wins, numerous GPs, 1 world F1 , 1 European F2 ,at least 2 F5000, 1 Can Am ,and 1 World Sportscar title plus numerous great event wins from Targa Florio, Nurburgring 1000 and James Hardie 1000 to Paris Dakar (I think Ickx won both ? Correct me if I am wrong).






.

[Lee O]

Hi

My Fathers name is Trevor Orchard and was on the Cooper F1 team in Surbiton and Byflleet. Trevor was Jochen Rindts mechanic in 65 & 66 season and chief mechanic 1967.

In 67 he had a lot to do with the build of the Cooper Maserati T86 heron head engine which first appeared at the Silverstone GP.

In 2007 at the Goodwood Revival we found the T86 which was then owned by Bob Leibert. We were then lucky enough to spend the day with them and he was reunited with Roy Salvadori who was team manager when Trevor worked at Coopers. Both Trevor and Roy reminised over the racing days.

We spoke alot to Ben Leibert on the day and also revisited the car at Whitchurch were the car was kept and prepared.

We have since learnt that the car has been sold to Japan and sadly lost contact with Ben. We would really like to get in contact with Ben again but do not have his details. Does anyone know how we could get in touch with him again.

Thank you.

[CLR]

There was a Cooper Maserati V12 running in the 2010 Vernasca Silver Flag.
In the entry Emilio Comelli was down to drive a Cooper BRM. I assume this was the entry ?

There is some video of it in action on youtube for the 2010 event. I had a good look at it at Vernasca, but didnt bother to look for chassis no. Sorry

Kevin Whittle

[Peter Morley]

There was a Cooper Maserati V12 running in the 2010 Vernasca Silver Flag.
In the entry Emilio Comelli was down to drive a Cooper BRM. I assume this was the entry ?

There is some video of it in action on youtube for the 2010 event. I had a good look at it at Vernasca, but didnt bother to look for chassis no. Sorry

Kevin Whittle

F1-1-68 is in Italy.

[ohazamiizugahara]

Hi

My Fathers name is Trevor Orchard and was on the Cooper F1 team in Surbiton and Byflleet. Trevor was Jochen Rindts mechanic in 65 & 66 season and chief mechanic 1967.

In 67 he had a lot to do with the build of the Cooper Maserati T86 heron head engine which first appeared at the Silverstone GP.

In 2007 at the Goodwood Revival we found the T86 which was then owned by Bob Leibert. We were then lucky enough to spend the day with them and he was reunited with Roy Salvadori who was team manager when Trevor worked at Coopers. Both Trevor and Roy reminised over the racing days.

We spoke alot to Ben Leibert on the day and also revisited the car at Whitchurch were the car was kept and prepared.

We have since learnt that the car has been sold to Japan and sadly lost contact with Ben. We would really like to get in contact with Ben again but do not have his details. Does anyone know how we could get in touch with him again.

Thank you.

Yes, this Cooper Maserati is in Japan.
I took these pics last year.

[Pullman99]

 

Just found this on BBC Rewind (and previously also highlighted earlier this month by 68targa in the Historical Research section of the Forum) when searching for something completely different!  And, no, I wasn't trying to find a Monty Python sketch...

 

https://bbcrewind.co...5-07-14&q=Lotus

 

There has been earlier discussion concerning the Cooper T80 that was built to carry out initial testing of the Flat 16 Coventry Climax unit.  Fascinating to hear the comments from Walter Hassan and also John Cooper who was basically correct about the issues facing the teams unlikely to be in a state of readiness for Monaco in 1966.  The FWMW was, unfortunately, in the "what if" category of motorsport and Coventry Climax were clearly unwilling to go forward with development of a 3 litre unit.   The story of the Coventry Climax contribution to Formula One in particular still deserves more exposure.   The Coventry Transport Museum (then the Herbert Art Gallery & Museum), after Team Lotus were finished with the 33, acquired R14 - that was a new chassis for the early races in 1966 running a 2 litre version of the FWMV - on loan from the company / Leonard Lee and the Lee family subsequently sold it via auction to the Caister Castle Car Collection where it remains to this day.    That left Coventry without an example of one of its most famous racing engines.   The National Motor Museum, regrettably, has no examples of the 1.5 litre Formula One era on show either despite the emergence of significant British success during this period.

 

Anyway, it's always nice when archive material such as this comes to light.  So thanks again 68targa and thank you BBC!