527 replies to this topic

[cosworth bdg]

Since the very sad passing of John Dawson-Damer approx 7 yrs ago , has historic motorracing progressed in australia and if so, how has it progressed or is it going backwards , i am more inclined to think backwards...

[Ray Bell]

Well, Peter, there are a few different aspects to this...

There's Historic Racing under the CAMS and Historic Racing outside of CAMS. I agree, that by and large the pace and the rules are set by the CAMS, but the AASA and the GEAR Clubs do hold or sanction events that are outside the CAMS umbrella.

It's the latter bunch in which I think you'll find there's been growth. But all the same, the HRCC of Qld just had their biggest Historic Race Meeting ever, over 230 competitors turning up at Morgan Park.

In short, while CAMS are trying to price it all out of everyone's reach, there are those out there who are prevailing and keeping the flag flying in all camps. And do you reckon your old mate Paul is doing a good job in place of poor old DD?

[Dick Willis]

I've probably competed at every Historic race meeting in the Eastern States over the last decade or more, bar Mallala and Sandown, and if you go to them and don't enjoy yourself then its your own fault for being negative about a great sport.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by Dick Willis
I've probably competed at every Historic race meeting in the Eastern States over the last decade or more, bar Mallala and Sandown, and if you go to them and don't enjoy yourself then its your own fault for being negative about a great sport.

Apart from the geography lesson (Mallala in an Eastern State??)...I agree with Dick "smokey" Willis...what do people want?? V8 Supercar marketing and razzamatazz

[seldo]

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4


Apart from the geography lesson (Mallala in an Eastern State??)...I agree with Dick "smokey" Willis...what do people want?? V8 Supercar marketing and razzamatazz

And in my humble opinion, the very lack of that hype and razzamatazz is a large part of what gives the historics a lot of appeal and charm. Quite refreshing in fact.

[cosworth bdg]

Originally posted by seldo

And in my humble opinion, the very lack of that hype and razzamatazz is a large part of what gives the historics a lot of appeal and charm. Quite refreshing in fact.

yes very refreshing

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by cosworth bdg
yes very refreshing

Speaking of refreshing....might as well refresh peoples memories!

http://forums.autosp...ghlight=decline

http://forums.autosp...ghlight=decline

[Ray Bell]

Quieten up on the geography, Mick...

As long as Dick thinks SA is an Eastern State he might take the trouble to go there. Old Clem deserves his patronage, too, and I'm sure he'd enjoy the meeting.

Especially next year, when it's tied in with a big event at Lobethal.

[Terry Walker]

Any native-born West Australian will tell you, there is Western Australia, and the Eastern States.

[cosworth bdg]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Well, Peter, there are a few different aspects to this...

There's Historic Racing under the CAMS and Historic Racing outside of CAMS. I agree, that by and large the pace and the rules are set by the CAMS, but the AASA and the GEAR Clubs do hold or sanction events that are outside the CAMS umbrella.

It's the latter bunch in which I think you'll find there's been growth. But all the same, the HRCC of Qld just had their biggest Historic Race Meeting ever, over 230 competitors turning up at Morgan Park.

In short, while CAMS are trying to price it all out of everyone's reach, there are those out there who are prevailing and keeping the flag flying in all camps. And do you reckon your old mate Paul is doing a good job in place of poor old DD?

Ray ,well put and an answer to your question a big NO.....

[Dick Willis]

While we are on Australian Historic Racing I thought I should tell you what we, the HSRCA, are planning for Wakefield Park meeting on November 24/25. The feature will be MG's, T Types and prewars, both standard and modified including the specials. As well as running in their normal programme of races and regularities they will feature in a special all MG, the types described above, Regularity on the Sunday. As well they will feature in a Sunday lunchtime parade along with all the other MG's which are not eligible, or do not wish to, run in the races or regularities.

We anticipate a large turnout of T Types and prewars as well as a couple of specials which have not been seen for some time and we will be featuring a display of the non competing cars as well as the racing cars which we hope to house in a special marquee. There is no entry fee for the T Types and pre wars entered in the races. Preliminary interest has been very high so we hope this will be an event to remember for early MG enthusiasts and we ask that anyone who knows of someone who may be interested in entering or attending with a T Type or pre war MG to get them to contact the HSRCA.

[johnny yuma]

I don't know anything about the people who run the meetings but the HSRCA Eastern Creek meeting seems to be shrivelling a bit over the last 3 years.The Muscle Car Masters and the Car Show being on during the same 4 week period at EC seems to have dissipated the energy.Eastern Creek should have an historic meeting to rival the Phillip Island Classic but where is it?

[giffo]

Maybe so?? (above)
29/30 Sept saw the VSCC of WA hold the 2nd Collie Crown Historic event at Collie Motorplex in W.A.
Yes the numbers were a little disappointing but over 2 days we got in a 10 min practice plus 5 events. Not too many meetings will give you that track time.

Images - http://www.vsccwa.co...-historic-event
Images - http://www.warm.org.au/index-news.htm
Video- - The camera mounted from my mirror


Lance in the Jane/Brabham - Image by Shane Cassidy - Motor Sport Media

Nige giving the Vee Special a workout - Image by Shane Cassidy - Motor Sport Media

Me taking the inside line on Neil - Image by Shane Cassidy - Motor Sport Media

[waz356]

Originally posted by giffo
Maybe so?? (above)
29/30 Sept saw the VSCC of WA hold the 2nd Collie Crown Historic event at Collie Motorplex in W.A.
Yes the numbers were a little disappointing but over 2 days we got in a 10 min practice plus 5 events. Not too many meetings will give you that track time.

Sorry, I'm new to the historic racing scene but shouldn't this be the minimum? Perhaps PI is getting too big and the field should be split into two different weekends - open wheel and touring cars, to gurantee everyone gets a reasonable run?

Regards,

Warren

[Wings and Slicks]

Dick

The club should consider issuing a Press Release with a summary of your content to the Canberra Times and Goulburn Guardian Newspapers. Also, on the web sites for these newspapers you can list events under "Whats on" at no charge.

http://goulburn.your.../enterevent.asp

http://canberra.your.../enterevent.asp

A description something like:

"Some people collect works of art, we race them."

" The Historic Sports and Racing Club is hosting it's annual Christmas Race Meeting at Wakefield Park featuring pre and post war historic racing cars of all types. There is no restriction on pit entry so you can get up close and personal with the cars and meet the drivers. See historic Fomula one , Formula two and three cars, Sports Cars and Touring Cars. Everything from a Formula One Ferrari, Lotus' and Brabham's to racing Mustang's, Torana's and Mini's will be racing for glory. A special feature will be MG's, T Types and pre-wars, both standard and modified including specials on display and racing. A great family day to experience motor racing as it was in in it's halcyon day's. Over $10 million worth of cars racing on track."

etc. etc.

I would also target the local and Canberra talk back radio stations for a free plug closer to the event. Let me know if you want some help with this, but I am very wary of perhaps treading on delicate toes. You could tweak the content with knowledge of the entries.

The more spectators the better, will help keep the flies off the drivers.

[Michael Clark]

I attended the September meetings at Eastern Creek in 2004/05 and was back for the Tasman Revival last year. In addition, I was at Phillip Island earlier this year.

The PI meeting was very good, the Tasman Revival was pretty good (unless you were a NZ born star driver of yesteryear) and the 2004 EC meeting was OK too. There wasn't much new at EC in 2005 but what could one expect?

I see a lot of classic racing here in NZ, where classic motor racing is quite strong - especially F5000. I would say that our 'Skope' meeting at Ruapuna in February would be better than the September meetings at EC but the variety of cars is generally not as good as what I saw at PI in March.

From what I've seen, as an outsider, the scene in Australia looked pretty healthy.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by Wings and Slicks
Dick

The club should consider issuing a Press Release with a summary of your content to the Canberra Times and Goulburn Guardian Newspapers. Also, on the web sites for these newspapers you can list events under "Whats on" at no charge.

http://goulburn.your.../enterevent.asp

http://canberra.your.../enterevent.asp

A description something like:

"Some people collect works of art, we race them."

" The Historic Sports and Racing Club is hosting it's annual Christmas Race Meeting at Wakefield Park featuring pre and post war historic racing cars of all types. There is no restriction on pit entry so you can get up close and personal with the cars and meet the drivers. See historic Fomula one , Formula two and three cars, Sports Cars and Touring Cars. Everything from a Formula One Ferrari, Lotus' and Brabham's to racing Mustang's, Torana's and Mini's will be racing for glory. A special feature will be MG's, T Types and pre-wars, both standard and modified including specials on display and racing. A great family day to experience motor racing as it was in in it's halcyon day's. Over $10 million worth of cars racing on track."

etc. etc.

I would also target the local and Canberra talk back radio stations for a free plug closer to the event. Let me know if you want some help with this, but I am very wary of perhaps treading on delicate toes. You could tweak the content with knowledge of the entries.

The more spectators the better, will help keep the flies off the drivers.

In the past, I have heard radio adverts and even some TV coverage for Wakefield Historics. WIN and ABC TV seems to have the only local content these days.

The Chronicle is a weekly community newspaper that services all Canberra and has a sports and Wots ON section news@chronicle.com.au/Editor Leanne 02 6280 2156

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by giffo

Lance in the Jane/Brabham - Image by Shane Cassidy - Motor Sport Media

Which Jane/Brabham?

[giffo]

This one.......
http://www.warm.org....rabham-BT23.htm

[giffo]

Below is an image of the poster of the Bob Jane racing stable that was being handed out at Phillip Island earlier in the year
Lance had Bob sign the poster over the car & on the Jane/Brabham's bodywork noze.
The original Repco V8 is still in (I believe) Bob's possesion.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by giffo
This one.......
http://www.warm.org....rabham-BT23.htm

Thanks...

As the pics show, the body's not much like the original. That was why I asked.

[giffo]

It's only the noze cone / front section, the rest appears correct. In the box of parts there are a couple of later styles, but the original style will be a future addition.

[xbgs351]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Well, Peter, there are a few different aspects to this...

There's Historic Racing under the CAMS and Historic Racing outside of CAMS. I agree, that by and large the pace and the rules are set by the CAMS, but the AASA and the GEAR Clubs do hold or sanction events that are outside the CAMS umbrella.

It's the latter bunch in which I think you'll find there's been growth. But all the same, the HRCC of Qld just had their biggest Historic Race Meeting ever, over 230 competitors turning up at Morgan Park.

In short, while CAMS are trying to price it all out of everyone's reach, there are those out there who are prevailing and keeping the flag flying in all camps. And do you reckon your old mate Paul is doing a good job in place of poor old DD?

Does AASA have an equivelant to the CAMS COD?

[cavvy]

Originally posted by giffo
It's only the noze cone / front section, the rest appears correct. In the box of parts there are a couple of later styles, but the original style will be a future addition.

When raced by Dominic Mannello in the 70s it was referred to as a Brabham BT35, Fiat powered.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by xbgs351
Does AASA have an equivelant to the CAMS COD?

No, I don't believe so...

They do, however, accept all CAMS paperwork. I'm not sure whether or not CAMS accept theirs (even if it's illegal not to do so).

[xbgs351]

Originally posted by Ray Bell


No, I don't believe so...

They do, however, accept all CAMS paperwork. I'm not sure whether or not CAMS accept theirs (even if it's illegal not to do so).

So who decides if a car is eligible for a certain category?

[cosworth bdg]

Originally posted by xbgs351


So who decides if a car is eligible for a certain category?

A very good question ???

[rms]

Category managers not AASA.

[Wings and Slicks]

I have heard a rumour that CAMS has given AVESCO the same date as the Tasman Revival for a round of the taxis at Oran Park. Considering the Tasman Revival has been scheduled for several months and the investment by the promoter in this event I feel CAMS should have a broader outlook. Should CAMS allow the taxis to dominate all other forms of Motorsport in this country? Is the power of the almighty dollar that important? Should historic racers not all tell CAMS to take a jump and give Bob Jane a call?

And while I am ranting, what do you make of the decision by the Historic Commission to allow FF2000 into historics in Australia? Considering there exists about 3 in the country, and the class never raced here, how is this decision supposed to represent the spirit of historic racing? Is it a coincidence that immediately after the decision, a relative of a comissioner had one for sale at the last historic meeting?

[Ray Bell]

That's brilliant!

There are a couple of FF2000 type sports cars have ended up here, but they don't have a specific class. If the FF2000s have a class, then it's simply stupid.

[Wings and Slicks]

Dear Ray

It seems that a few are trying to make a dollar out of selling "historic" cars here.

First they allowed Sports 2000 into M and O sports, and now the HC has allowed FF2000 in from 2008. What class will a promoter choose to run these FF2000 cars in? M and O racing cars or Q and R, or ff1600?

A lot of people have already invested in current elligible cars, and it appears to an outsider like me that a minority with a vested interest are constantly looking to have new classes approved for elligibility, which I believe is detrimental to the spirit of historics and those with current historic log books. The concept seems to be, buy a cheap car in the states, import here and then get them accepted into historics so you can sell at a profit. I refer to the ongoing push for pre-90 formula fords into historics and now FF2000.

As stated earlier, at the last eastern creek meeting there was an FF2000 for sale, one of a few currently in the country, the price someone near $50k. You can buy them in the states for well under $15k. I look forward to reviewing the minutes from the last HC meeting to see who on the commission supported this vote. First prize for guessing who forwarded the motion for FF2000 gets a free mouthguard!

On the other hand I hear there is a push for Sports Sedans into Historics, which if the elligibility issue can be overcome, would be an exciting addition if handled correctly.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by Wings and Slicks
Dear Ray

It seems that a few are trying to make a dollar out of selling "historic" cars here.

First they allowed Sports 2000 into M and O sports, and now the HC has allowed FF2000 in from 2008. What class will a promoter choose to run these FF2000 cars in? M and O racing cars or Q and R, or ff1600?

A lot of people have already invested in current elligible cars, and it appears to an outsider like me that a minority with a vested interest are constantly looking to have new classes approved for elligibility, which I believe is detrimental to the spirit of historics and those with current historic log books. The concept seems to be, buy a cheap car in the states, import here and then get them accepted into historics so you can sell at a profit. I refer to the ongoing push for pre-90 formula fords into historics and now FF2000.

As stated earlier, at the last eastern creek meeting there was an FF2000 for sale, one of a few currently in the country, the price someone near $50k. You can buy them in the states for well under $15k. I look forward to reviewing the minutes from the last HC meeting to see who on the commission supported this vote. First prize for guessing who forwarded the motion for FF2000 gets a free mouthguard!

On the other hand I hear there is a push for Sports Sedans into Historics, which if the elligibility issue can be overcome, would be an exciting addition if handled correctly.

Whilst I sympathise....certainly nothing new under the sun here...TVR 5 litre springs to mind all those years ago

I too think Sports Sedans will be a terrific addition to any event line-up - if they can maintain decent fields

[cosworth bdg]

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4




I too think Sports Sedans will be a terrific addition to any event line-up - if they can maintain decent fields

[Ray Bell]

In all of this, you have to forget that the cars never ran here...

There are plenty of cars running here that come from classes that weren't run here. It doesn't matter, they are still Historic racing cars.

What matters is creating new classes. That simply makes no sense at all, as the classes didn't run here. They can run in FLibre, just as the Sports 2000s simply ran with sports cars of all types.

[xbgs351]

Originally posted by rms
Category managers not AASA.

So VHRR, HSRCC, HSRCA etc?

[Wings and Slicks]

Yes Ray I agree any new cars are a bonus, and I suppose it does not matter which class new cars run in, as historics is not about winning. Forgive my distrust of the approval process.

[Paul Hamilton]

There seem to be some fundamental misunderstandings about the decisions made by the CAMS Historic Commission to add various new types of vehicle to the Group R eligibility list e.g. Sports 2000 a few years back and more recently FF2000. No specific new classes have been created for these or any other of the various types of car which have been added to the list since Group R was first introduced they simply become one of many different vehicle types eligible within that existing Group.

Group R differs from the other CAMS historic Groups such as M, O and Q in that the regulations identify the specific types of car which are eligible rather than simply saying that any type of car which comes from the relevant time period is eligible. That approach was taken when the regulations were written because it was recognised that, if the rules maintained the 'catch all' approach used for the older groups but simply identified a time period up to the mid 80's, then many types of car which still have a life in contemporary racing would become eligible. That is not what historic racing is normally about as it is normally expected that cars would not become eligible until they are identifiably different from those which compete in contemporary events.

To address that issue the Group R rules identified an initial list of vehicle types approved as eligible but the rules also included mention that CAMS will consider adding other types to the list on application. It was never expected that the initial list would be complete and definitive given the very wide range of competition vehicle types which could possibly become eligible. Since introduction of the Group quite a number of additions have been made after application by competitors with CAMS adopting the criteria that the additions should be limited to cars of a type not now seen in contemporary events. Sports 2000 was added a few years back when the late Wal Donnelly put up a case and quite a few other such cars have since come into the country. Provision was also added for turbo F1 cars when Guido brought in the Ferrari. None of these vehicle types have had any racing history in Australia but, as Ray has pointed out, that has never been a qualifying requirement to run in our historic events in any other group and I can see no good reason why it should be now.

This process of adding various types of suitable vehicle to the eligible list is simply a normal part of the way Group R was always intended to work and that is clearly set out in the regulations. Given that background and the various additions approved in recent past years, the fuss some people have recently made about the addition of FF2000 is pretty difficult to understand. There are two cars I know of in the country at present (both in Qld) and only one of them belongs to my brother in law although both owners made submissions to CAMS at around the same time. Both cars are pretty old hat when compared to the most recently built FF2000 cars still running in mixed formula contemporary races in the US which is the only place in the world where FF2000 survives and they have mixed well with the other Group R cars when allowed to run under permits at Morgan Park and Oran Park earlier this year. That all made a pretty logical case for the Historic Commission to approve the addition of FF2000 cars built up to the end of 1983 to the Group R eligible vehicle list which it did in September.

There will periodically be proposals for other additions to the list and the September Commission meeting also approved the inclusion of Formula 3000 cars up to the end of 1988. Other proposals which are under consideration are Indy cars and an extension in the ANF2 cars beyond the current 1985 cut off date. I simply don't understand the sort of conspiracy theories this quite normal process has created and I would have thought most people would consider that the Commission was acting pretty constructively in encouraging the appearance of further new types of historic vehicle. Provided thay are compatible with what we have running already and have an appropriate competition history they surely can only add more interest to the scene.

[cosworth bdg]

Paul , very well said , Regards ,P N...

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by xbgs351
So VHRR, HSRCC, HSRCA etc?

Nope, at CAMS meetings....for example:

Supaloc Australian
Saloon Car Championship

Sporting Regulations

Category Manager – Les Morrall
The Category Manager is the appointed representative of The Australian Saloon
Car Company P/L (TASCCO) and shall be empowered to administer the
Championship and secure the performance of the TASCCO duties and exercise
its rights and powers within the NCR and these Sporting Regulations.

[xbgs351]

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4


Nope, at CAMS meetings....for example:

Supaloc Australian
Saloon Car Championship

Sporting Regulations

Category Manager – Les Morrall
The Category Manager is the appointed representative of The Australian Saloon
Car Company P/L (TASCCO) and shall be empowered to administer the
Championship and secure the performance of the TASCCO duties and exercise
its rights and powers within the NCR and these Sporting Regulations.

So who is the category manager for Group R at AASA meetings?

[rms]

If you are not happy with the direction of historic racing under CAMS then I suggest you get a group of like minded competitors and approach Rod Dale and Gary Willmington with a view to forming a Category Management and regulations for historics running under AASA/AMRS.

I am sure they will welcome you with open arms.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Paul Hamilton
There seem to be some fundamental misunderstandings about the decisions made by the CAMS Historic Commission.....

There will periodically be proposals for other additions to the list and the September Commission meeting also approved the inclusion of Formula 3000 cars up to the end of 1988. Other proposals which are under consideration are Indy cars and an extension in the ANF2 cars beyond the current 1985 cut off date. I simply don't understand the sort of conspiracy theories this quite normal process has created and I would have thought most people would consider that the Commission was acting pretty constructively in encouraging the appearance of further new types of historic vehicle. Provided thay are compatible with what we have running already and have an appropriate competition history they surely can only add more interest to the scene.

Well explained, Paul...

And I'm not surprised that things weren't as presented here.

Now, what about something even more important... simplifying things for anyone wanting to create a replica of a Special they can prove has been utterly destroyed?

You know I've been on this case for years. The top end, the '60s, '70s and now '80s have been filled up with cars, but the older classes are lacking in numbers and variety. Particularly when compared to 'the period'. Simply because many quite useful - for their day - yet humble cars became a source of an engine for a road car and a source of landfill for the tips about the country.

I have the main ingredients now for one such car. I would love to build it or see someone else build it. It was destroyed in the late fifties, which I proved in the seventies. Unfortunately, because it had a fabricated chassis it doesn't fall into an 'in the likeness of' deal... in my opinion... that would cheapen the whole affair (historically, not financially) and have far less appeal to me.

[Paul Hamilton]

There are no category managers at CAMS permitted historic race meetings. The concept of category management is applicable to more commercially oriented sectors of the sport where CAMS and the category manager establish a formal commercial agreement which assigns various event management responsibilities to the category manager at specified events covered by the agreement. The category manager essentially looks after the competitors' interests on a collective basis and acts as a liasion between them and the various other parties who may be involved in the organisation of the event such as the circuit owner or operator, commercial event sponsors, AVESCO etc.

We don't need such an arrangement at historic meetings which have managed to avoid most of the ugly side of the commercial intrusion into motor SPORT. Hopefully we will be able to continue without such 'innovations'!! Most historic meetings are run by the various clubs such as HSRCA,VHRR, A7 Club, HRCCQ, SASCC etc whose membership is comprised of competitors and who rely on CAMS appointed officials to administer issues such as vehicle eligibility compliance. I would hope that the clubs themselves should be able to be relied on to represent the competitor's interests when needed!!

I don't know how things work at AASA meetings but Group R or any other CAMS historic Groups should not have any relevance there as the CAMS regulations are simply not applicable. The AASA event regulations I have seen refer simply to 'vehicles generally known as Group M, O, Q, R etc etc.' or something similar to that without providing any detail at all of the types of vehicle which may comply. I suspect that if there ever were a serious eligibility dispute the ability to enforce compliance with the CAMS regulations or adherance to the vehicle specification listed in a CAMS issued Certificate of Description at a AASA event may be open to question.

[Ray Bell]

I guess that issue really depends on whether or not the Supp Regs for the AASA event ask for a COD or CAMS log book. They could quite well do that, but they might also allow vehicles without such.

[Paul Hamilton]

Ray,

On the subject of your replica proposal the CAMS rules did provide for that until relatively recently and some projects approved prior to the rule change (most notably John Sheppard's Maybach 2) have yet to emerge from the workshop. The relevant rule was discontinued because the Historic Eligibility Committee was not comfortable with its ability to administer it fairly. They had encountered some pretty difficult cases where it was hard to prove or disprove the destruction of the original and, in one notable case, the real car did emerge subsequent to approval of the replica construction.

I was never in total agreement with the deletion of the rule and, as I pointed out to the HEC at the time, I could not see them knocking back a Lancia D50 replica if Bernie ever wanted to bring his out here!! I lost that battle, however, which just shows that the popular perception that the Chairman exercises total control is some way off the mark!!

[cosworth bdg]

I know this is off topic but it is good to see that Sports Sedans in Australia have Finaly been recognised as a catergory within the Historic movement..

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Paul Hamilton
.....in one notable case, the real car did emerge subsequent to approval of the replica construction.....

That 'notable case' should be noted for its plain ignorance of the requirements, however...

Not only did the car still exist, it was well known to still exist and its whereabouts were well known. The builder of the replica, which was built on the wrong chassis anyway, had been trying to buy the original for many years without success.

CAMS' own 'blind eye' should not be a reason to rewrite rules.

[Paul Hamilton]

'Well known' to who, Ray ? Clearly the whereabouts of the original were not known to the CAMS HEC members or they would not have approved the replica construction. In an activity such as ours with such an incredibly diverse range of vehicles to keep track of and individuals with really detailed knowledge they often prefer to keep to themselves it is often difficult for CAMS volunteers to keep up with all that might be 'well known' to a particular group. None of us should ever assume that other people are in any way aware of what might be 'well known' to us.

I do hope that you are not suggesting that the 'blind eye' was anything other than an unfortunate error.

As I have said I did not support the changing of that rule but, having said that, it is always difficult to justify retention of rules which you don't have the practical capacity to administer fairly.

[Ray Bell]

It was 'well known', I contend, to basically everyone in the Historic field in SA, Paul...

So much so that I heard about it while I was on a visit there before the replica was built. Or maybe when I visited Garrie Cooper while he was building the body.

I agree that it's hard to do this, but there are just so many cars out there that can be reasonably proven to not exist any more, and with good enough reason to not exist.

[eldougo]

Carefully you are talking with the MAN from....... CAMS .