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The 1950 Formula 1 season


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#1 Allen Brown

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Posted 03 October 2007 - 16:39

As the first stage of a major expansion of OldRacingcars.com into the 1950s and even, maybe, the 1940s, I've published today the full results of the 1950 F1 season.

http://www.oldracingcars.com/f1/1950/

We're by no means the first site to do this of course but ORC's focus, as in our work on F2, F5000 and F/Atlantic, is to identify the individual cars as well as possible. So you will find that the results are accompanied by notes on the cars, giving as full a record of their later lives as we can.

TNF has been one of the most important homes of collaborative research on this period and I hope some of you will be able to amend and expand what we've done so far.

Allen

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#2 petefenelon

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Posted 03 October 2007 - 16:46

Originally posted by Allen Brown
As the first stage of a major expansion of OldRacingcars.com into the 1950s and even, maybe, the 1940s, I've published today the full results of the 1950 F1 season.

http://www.oldracingcars.com/f1/1950/

We're by no means the first site to do this of course but ORC's focus, as in our work on F2, F5000 and F/Atlantic, is to identify the individual cars as well as possible. So you will find that the results are accompanied by notes on the cars, giving as full a record of their later lives as we can.

TNF has been one of the most important homes of collaborative research on this period and I hope some of you will be able to amend and expand what we've done so far.

Allen


Incredible stuff, Allen, as ever many thanks for putting so much reseach into the hands of enthusiasts. One question though - will there (eventually?) be other views on the database, giving views by driver or by chassis?

#3 Allen Brown

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Posted 03 October 2007 - 16:59

Originally posted by petefenelon


Incredible stuff, Allen, as ever many thanks for putting so much reseach into the hands of enthusiasts. One question though - will there (eventually?) be other views on the database, giving views by driver or by chassis?

Indeed there will Pete. In fact, those two feature already exist for the use of the researchers and historians who have helped to put all this together. The problem is that they show you everything - 1940s Australian libre, SCCA Nationals, French hill climbs, 1957 F2, etc - including stuff that isn't yet ready for publication. I need to create a version of it that just shows the parts that we're happy with. I am planning to do that soon.

Allen

#4 VDP

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Posted 03 October 2007 - 18:34

Allen

Nice work

The Alfa's for the Swiss GP according to Cimarosti were entered by the local importer. Now maybe my old friend and Alfa specialist Patrick could enlight us. :drunk:


Robert

#5 Rob Ryder

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Posted 03 October 2007 - 18:36

Good job Allen, and nice to see the non-Championship races being included :up:
Rob

#6 Michael Müller

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Posted 03 October 2007 - 22:18

I checked the first race where Ferraris had been entered, which was Pau, and realized that Sheldon's (or who was it?) lottery serials have been taken over without questioning them. Both Villoresi and Sommer didn't drove the new tipo 125 (125-C-01 & 02) but old models. Both are verified by photos. The serials are unknown, as some typical characteristics had been lost over the winter due to partly new bodywork.
I also doubt Sommer's entry by Ferrari, he drove a light blue painted car which was on loan by Ferrari for the French races. I am convinced that this was a private entry.

#7 Allen Brown

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Posted 04 October 2007 - 09:42

Michael

I'm so glad this has sparked your interest. While Adam and David had great knowledge on Maserati and we had books to help us with Talbot-Lago, Gordini, ERA, HWM and Alta, we had more of a problem with Ferrari. We knew from some of the previous threads here that you're the expert on the Ferraris of this period and I was hoping you'd be able to help.

You are right that the Ferrari identities are based on those in the Black Books. They don't seem to make a lot of sense but I had no way to improve them without speculating.

Would Sommer's car at Pau be the 1949 '12C that he later drove at the San Remo and Monaco races?

The histories we have for 125s in 1950 are:
125-C-01: Ascari for four races, Villoresi for two
125-C-02: Villoresi for five races; Chinetti at Pedrables
125-C-04: Villoresi at Bremgarten, Ascari at Geneva, Taruffi at Pedrables

And also
'08C: Serafini at two races
'10C: Whitehead all season
'12C: Sommer at San Remo and Monaco
Thinwall: Ascari at Silverstone

How much of this is wrong? Are you able to help correct it?

Then there's the 275 that Ascari drove at Spa - I think Tanner says that was a 125 chassis with the interim engine. Have you been able to identify which that car was?

Allen

#8 Michael Müller

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Posted 04 October 2007 - 10:15

Allen, 1950 was the most chaotical year in Ferrari's singleseater racing. It was a mix out of old models, new ones, interim and experimentals, and also still some F1-F2 mixes. Give me some time to accumulate what I have, but clearly defined serials will be the exception.

#9 Allen Brown

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Posted 04 October 2007 - 10:27

Thanks Michael. There are many places where we have to accept that we can't identify actual serials - the Alfettas for example - and I have no problem with that. I'd rather accept that I dont know than guess.

Note the third AC Argentina Maserati 4CLT in 1950 where I acknowledge in the footnote that we can't work out what it was. One day we'll figure it out...

#10 fw07c

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Posted 06 October 2007 - 14:05

quote:Originally posted by David McKinney
The Biondetti Ferrari-Jaguar was auctioned by Coys of Kensington at their 1995 Silverstone sale, the catalogue for which gives its chassis no. as 07. I believe this was a 166 Inter number.
The catalogue gives this description of the hybrid’s origin:
“In his workshop he had a works XK120 engine. He then reproduced (my italics) a Ferrari 166 chassis and clothed it with a spider corsa body from a Ferrari 166. Thus he created a dual-purpose racing car which, at 860kg, was lighter than the Jaguar XK120 and had more power, and gave less trouble, than a Ferrari 166”
It goes on to list the races (F1 and sportscar) he contested.
The car is depicted in 166SC bodywork (though not the same body as in an accompanying period photo), but I seem to remember at about the same time a car with bodywork similar to a C-type Jaguar being offered as the ex-Biondetti Ferrari-Jaguar. If the bodywork had been replaced, it seems strange the Coys catalogue makes no mention of it. Was there a second Biondetti Ferrari-Jaguar?



According to the above quote Biondetti Ferrari jaguar which competed in the 1950 Italian Grand Prix was Ferrari 166I chassis number 07.Is this correct?

#11 fw07c

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Posted 07 October 2007 - 09:52

If this is the correct chassis number for Biondetti's car at 1950 Italian Grand Prix it would be another entry in the excellent set of results.

#12 Allen Brown

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Posted 07 October 2007 - 10:16

The concensus seems to be that the Biondetti car was composed of a chassis made up of a variety of components with a 3.4-litre Jaguar XK engine and the body from a 166 Spyder Corsa. According to Michael, who has done some amazing work on the cars of this period, the 166SC was #002C which by then had a full roadster body. If both the chassis and body were from the 166SC, then calling it as Ferrari-Jaguar may be appropriate. If the chassis was mostly Biondetti and just the body from the Ferrari, then I think it's better to call it a special.

So I have listed Biondetti's car as a Biondetti Special, not as a Ferrari. There may have been a second Biondetti Special but I have no idea how these one or two cars relate to the ones recently offered at auction.

Allen

#13 Doug Nye

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Posted 07 October 2007 - 10:28

Originally posted by VDP
Allen

Nice work

The Alfa's for the Swiss GP according to Cimarosti were entered by the local importer. Now maybe my old friend and Alfa specialist Patrick could enlight us. :drunk:


Robert


Alfa Corse was withdrawn from Grand Prix racing for the 1949 season due to the cost of running a works team programme. Alfa Romeo was able to return to active competition 1950-51 thanks largely to contributions from its assorted concessionaires, distributors and dealers. The larger contributors were given promotional credit by being portrayed as the team's entrant in assorted events.

DCN

#14 GIGLEUX

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Posted 07 October 2007 - 17:04

Originally posted by VDP
Allen

Nice work

The Alfa's for the Swiss GP according to Cimarosti were entered by the local importer. Now maybe my old friend and Alfa specialist Patrick could enlight us. :drunk:




Robert


From official program:

S.A. Alfa Romeo, Lugano

#15 Michael Müller

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Posted 07 October 2007 - 23:26

Originally posted by fw07c
The Biondetti Ferrari-Jaguar was auctioned by Coys of Kensington at their 1995 Silverstone sale, the catalogue for which gives its chassis no. as 07.

At that auction the car was sold at GBP 36.500, is there anybody around believing that this would have been paid for a genuine Ferrari chassis? Even the bodywork would have fetched more in case it had been original....

I do not post photos here for the well-known reasons. For those who are interested to compare the SC 002C, the Biondetti Special, and the sold by Coys can have a look here:

http://www.ferrarich...ad.php?t=158477
(You must be logged in to see the photos).

#16 GIGLEUX

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Posted 10 October 2007 - 14:37

Good stuff, Allen, but....
...but there too much of Sheldon in what you wrote, too much errors of Sheldon! I don't deny Sheldon (I was a co-author of volume 3 and 4 of his books) but volume 5 was published some 20 years ago (1988) and from there many things appeared thanks to historians and searchers. I'm only a passionate searchers and had no pretention to be considered as an historian! Nevertheless Sheldon opus has the merit to be a basis.
Well please consider the 1950 GP de Monaco. The A.C.de Monaco archives are not opened to the public so, I spent four days, in the early nineties, at Nice to do my researches in the local press (Nice-Matin and L'Espoir de Nice, two daily newspapers).
At first you have to remember that from the first race in 1929 up to the mid sixties the starting numbers of the cars were allocated following the alphabetic nationality of the entrants. Secondly the A.C.de Monaco before the race gave quite a lot of information to the newspapers. So, I found the same info in the two sources. Now what was published.

13/05/1950 List of the requests received by the A.C., always with the same system of classification by nationality but concerning the drivers and without starting numbers.
Argentine:
-Fangio Alfa Corse
-Gonzalez Maserati Sc. Achille Varzi
-Pian idem Gonzalez
Belgique (Belgium)
-Claes Talbot
Etats-Unis (USA)
-Schell Cooper
France
-Manzon Simca Equipe Gordini
-Trintignant Simca Equipe Gordini
-Pozzi Talbot
-Etancelin Talbot
-Rosier Talbot
-Sommer Ferrari
Grande Bretagne (Great-Britain)
-Parnell Scuderia Ambrosiana
-Hampshire Scuderia Ambrosiana
-Abecassis Alta
-Gerard ERA
-Whitehead Ferrari
Irlande (Eire)
-Kelly Maserati
Italy (Italy)
-Farina Alfa Corse
-X Alfa Corse
-Villoresi Ferrari Scuderia Ferrari
-Roll Maserai Officine A.Maserati
-Biondetti Maserati
Monaco
-Chiron Maserati Officine A.Maserati
Siam
-Bira Scuderia E.Platé
Suisse
-de Graffenried Scuderia E.Platé

As you can see every time there was a team associated to the driver it was published; it means that when you have the name of the driver alone he his also the entrant.
It is the case of Claes Schell Pozzi (Grignard was the owner of the car and loaned it to Pozzi who entered it under his own name) Etancelin Rosier Sommer Abecassis Gerard Whitehead Kelly Biondetti (no doubt it was a Sc.Milan car but it was entered by himself).

17/05/1950
One addition:
-Chiron Alfa Corse
-Ascari Ferrari Scuderia Ferrari
Three modifications:
-Harrison ERA in place of Abecassis
-PDC Walker ERA in place of Kelly

19/05/1950
Ultimate modifications:
-Sommer Ferrari Scuderia Ferrari
-Fagioli Alfa Corse
-Chiron again with Maserati which means that the transactions between Alfa Corse and the A.C. didn't succeed.
Publication of the definitive entry list and of the official programme by the nationality of the entrant

Argentine
2 Gonzalez Maserati Scuderia Achille Varzi
4 Pian Maserati Scuderia Achille Varzi
Belgique
6 Claes Talbot
Etats-Unis
8 Schell Cooper
France
10 Manzon Simca Equipe Gordini
12 Trintignant Simca Equipe Gordini
14 Etancelin Talbot
16 Rosier Talbot
18 Pozzi Talbot
Grande-Bretagne
20 no name but at 99,99 % Parnell
22 no name but at 99,99 % Hampshire
24 Harrison ERA
26 Gerard ERA
28 Whitehead Ferrari
30 no name but at 99,99 % PDC Walker
Italie
32 Farina Equipe Alfa Romeo
34 Fangio Equipe Alfa Romeo
36 no name but it was Fagioli. Up to last moment the AC expected Chiron
38 Villoresi Ferrari Sc Ferrari
40 Ascari Sc Ferrari
42 Sommer Sc Ferrari though his car was the blue one he had on loan.
44 Roll Maserati Officine A.Maserati
46 Biondetti
Monaco
48 Chiron Maserati Officine A.Maserati
Siam
50 Prince Bira Maserati Sc Platé
Suisse
52 de Graffenried Maserati Sc Platé

As you can see the names of Levegh and Giraud-Cabantous were never mentioned. One of Sheldon errors. To put Ecurie France as entrant of G.Cabantous is pure heresy! Why? Paul Vallée ran the Ecurie France from the end of 1946 up to 1949. In 1950 he wanted to continue with Schell and Behra as drivers; he also contacted Simon who disliked the Talbot and prefered to sign with Gordini being sure to have a better season with F1 and F2 entries. At the beginning of 1950 two facts stroke him: the announcement of an official Talbot team; he was furious as he was during the preceding seasons the best representant of Talbot; he had two T26C (110002 and 110007) which had no chances as they are 1948 cars without the 12 plugs head. Second fact he searched witout success financial help from the french automobile industry and even with the french government. As he was a man of character he decide to stop everything!
Last point, as Pozzi DNA Gordini tried without success to enter Simon but the AC refused; maybe he was too greedy. On the copy of the official programme I have the name of Pozzi is scratched an the first owner wrote Simon in place...
What I want to say is that you've done a beautiful work and that I don't want to be negatif at all. Take it as a complementary information.
I expect there are no of these b....y smilies.

#17 Allen Brown

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Posted 10 October 2007 - 14:54

Hi Jean-Maurice

Thanks very much for your complementary information. Adam Ferrington and David McKinney have been working through 1950 again making more corrections and I have a wealth of material on the Ferraris from Michael Muller which I am now incorporating.

You are right to point out that even though Vol 5 was written nearly 20 years ago and much has been learnt since then, it has to be a big part of any new publication. Despite the errors it contains, it must be 98% or 99% accurate which is fantastic when you consider how little had been done before the F1 Register did their work. Vol 5 wasn't actually the start point here but much of that material was added and the errors would have been introduced at that point. We have corrected quite a lot but I am always pleased to get more new information.

I have a big advantage over any books in that I can publish, correct, republish, correct again and publish again all in a matter of days. Thanks to you and the others, I hope to get these results and histories as close as is reasonably possible.

A new version of 1950, plus a first cut at 1951, should be available in the next week or two.

Allen

#18 GIGLEUX

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Posted 10 October 2007 - 16:16

Two more modifications, Allen:

Albi: Ascari had the tipo 275 3300cc engine in his car, Villoresi only had the 125 supercharged.

GP de Paris: Delage. They were not of D6-70 type. The D6-70 was the stock car. D=Delage 6= 6 cylinders 70= 70 hp. The racing cars, two prewar and five after war were issued from the stock cars but with something between 130 and 140 hp!. They are usually known as Delage 3000 but the constructor plate indicate: D6-3LS as being the type of the cars.

Other corrections to come.

#19 Allen Brown

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Posted 10 October 2007 - 16:46

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
Albi: Ascari had the tipo 275 3300cc engine in his car, Villoresi only had the 125 supercharged.

Is that certain? I have just been working through Michael's information and he told me that Ascari had a 1.5-litre Colombo engine and Villoresi had a tipo 275 Lampredi engine.

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
GP de Paris: Delage. They were not of D6-70 type. The D6-70 was the stock car. D=Delage 6= 6 cylinders 70= 70 hp. The racing cars, two prewar and five after war were issued from the stock cars but with something between 130 and 140 hp!. They are usually known as Delage 3000 but the constructor plate indicate: D6-3LS as being the type of the cars.

David McKinney had also told me to correct the model number but I am still confused by these cars. Were they running as F1s despite only being 3 litres?

Thanks

Allen

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#20 GIGLEUX

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Posted 10 October 2007 - 16:55

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Is that certain? I have just been working through Michael's information and he told me that Ascari had a 1.5-litre Colombo engine and Villoresi had a tipo 275 Lampredi engine.

David McKinney had also told me to correct the model number but I am still confused by these cars. Were they running as F1s despite only being 3 litres?

Thanks

Allen


1) sure at 150 % and I have pictures to prove if necessary.

2) Yes they raced as F1 cars; after all the first u/s Ferrari only had 3300 cc!

#21 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 10 October 2007 - 16:55

A tip of the hat to Allen for another great effort on his part. This is the sort of thing that this place was made to support -- a collaborative effort in support of someone willing to press forward and make the changes to reflect what we know. As ever, another top flight project of the sort we have come to expect from Allen.

I think there is already much good that has come out of this, particularly the contributions being made by Michael and Jean-Maurice, as well as the others Allen has mentioned.

Great stuff.

I have to admit that I am in agreement with Allen on the "Black Books" that Sheldon et. al. produced -- much of it as withstood the test of time, an amazingly high percentage of the content considering that there was not much really to go on until they stepped forward and blazed the path for the rest of us.

Thank you, Allen.

#22 Michael Müller

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Posted 10 October 2007 - 17:13

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Is that certain? I have just been working through Michael's information and he told me that Ascari had a 1.5-litre Colombo engine and Villoresi had a tipo 275 Lampredi engine.

r/n 18 - Ascari:

Posted Image

r/n 16- Villoresi:

Posted Image

#23 GIGLEUX

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Posted 10 October 2007 - 18:03

The problem is that I have two pictures of Ascari at the wheel of car n°16.

#24 Michael Müller

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Posted 10 October 2007 - 20:07

Another one of #18 - the 1.5 ltr s/c car - where the driver clearly is Ascari.
(I cutted the surroundings).

If I remember correctly the photo originates even from you, Jean-Maurice.

Posted Image

#25 GIGLEUX

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 06:55

During a long time, historians ignored that the 125/275 was at Albi. Now quite a lot of sources give Villoresi as the driver of the car. I haven't your accurate eyes to distinghish if it is Villoresi or Ascari on the last picture you posted. It seems to me Ascari had a rounder face. I don't remember when and where I posted this picture but I surely indicated Villoresi as it was the caption of it. My source is Serge Pozzoli. The other photos I have, always from Pozzoli, show Ascari with the 125/275. Maybe were they taken during practice and that Ascari tried the car. In the doubt I admit that Villoresi drove the car during the race.

#26 GIGLEUX

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 07:26

Allen, GP de Paris n°10 Jean Estager Talbot. It is a T150C with a 4 liter-engine. In the Talbot designations T26 is 4500cc engine. The owner was Louis Rosier who loaned it to his great friend Estager.
About the appelation Talbot or Talbot-Lago, may be you read my opinion in another thread of TNF. The chassis plates of the cars always indicate "Talbot" and not "Talbot-Lago" or "Lago-Talbot". A cat is always a cat and a dog a dog. If you make the confusion after some time you are always surprised to hear that what you call your cat is in fact barking.
And now, plase, be a good boy, and give me a little pleasure: what you call the French GP was in fact the Grand Prix de l'ACF. Remember the barking cat!....

#27 Michael Müller

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 08:29

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
During a long time, historians ignored that the 125/275 was at Albi. Now quite a lot of sources give Villoresi as the driver of the car.

So we are back to the "Black Books" again. Sheldon based his work mainly on the entry and result lists, and for sure both cars there are listed as "tipo 125". Probably because when filling in the entry form Ferrari didn't know that some weeks or months later they will put a Lampredi development engine in one of the cars, and the typical engine capacity designation used by them for their "tipos" adds even more confusion. What exactly was it? A tipo 125 with tipo 275 engine? Or a tipo 275? Most probably Ferrari even didn't know by theirself....

The word "ignore" may be somewhat misplaced. The question is always "what do we have?", and as long as this is only Sheldon or the sources he used it's simply a tipo 125. Only photos can tell the truth, very often more than period press reports. A reporter with limited knowledge possibly describes car #16 as 1.5 litre supercharged Ferrari, because that's how it is listed in the programme.

Sometimes it is necessary to identify driver's faces, especially when no race numbers are known. But in this case I believe it is - in first instance - secondary, because #16 was fixed for Villoresi, and #18 for Ascari. But if there are photos with Ascari in #16 then there are various possible options:
- he drove the car in training,
- the race number distribution is wrong as such,
- a shared drive,
- change of cars between heat 1/2 and the final.

So a typical topic for the TNF "detectives", one of those we solved more than once in the past. But also one which most probably will remain unsolved because of the copyright rules for photos.

#28 David McKinney

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 17:15

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
And now, plase, be a good boy, and give me a little pleasure: what you call the French GP was in fact the Grand Prix de l'ACF.

Yes it was, but it's an English-language site, and you'll notice all the races are given the titles by which they are familiarly known in English. There's no Grote Prijs van Nederland or anything else with a non-English title.
OK, there are exceptions on the list. Grand Prix des Nations doesn't really translate - English-language reports at the time generally left it in French. I don't know why there isn't a Pau Grand Prix though :)
And I'd personally be happier to see Rheims given its correct period English spelling :cool:

#29 Allen Brown

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 17:25

I have been pondering this very issue recently. The site is in English but it is a .com not a .co.uk and I do have a responsibility to my non-English-as-a-first-language readers. As of a few moments ago, visitors are 7% French residents, 5% German, 5% Italian, 3% Dutch, 3% Belgian, 3% Czech and so on. The English-speaking nations only add up to 55-60%.

Should I change the event names to their local language? So Gran Premio San Remo, Grand Prix de Bordeaux, Grote Prijs van Nederland, Preis von Ostschweiz-Erlen and so on? I think I probably should.

I'd need some help though :)

#30 Michael Müller

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 17:29

Originally posted by David McKinney

Yes it was, but it's an English-language site, and you'll notice all the races are given the titles by which they are familiarly known in English.

Generally I think this is wrong, but even if strictly English terms are used, then it shoud be the "Grand Prix of the ACF" or at least "Grand Prix of the French Automobile Club".
If we are screwing ants with regards to chassis numbers, then the correct designation of the event is much more important.

#31 macoran

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 17:35

I have always held the rule that a name is, and should be treated as unique.
A name should not be bastardized by translation,local acceptance or ease of reference by other languages.
I couldn't care less if it is an English language site or not, THERE NEVER WAS a Grand Prix of the French Automobile Club.

So call it by it's name...please.
Anybody try and bastardize my name gets his chops done.
My name is Dutch and thats the way it is spelled.

#32 GIGLEUX

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 19:01

Originally posted by David McKinney

Yes it was, but it's an English-language site, and you'll notice all the races are given the titles by which they are familiarly known in English. There's no Grote Prijs van Nederland or anything else with a non-English title.
OK, there are exceptions on the list. Grand Prix des Nations doesn't really translate - English-language reports at the time generally left it in French. I don't know why there isn't a Pau Grand Prix though :)
And I'd personally be happier to see Rheims given its correct period English spelling :cool:


It isn't because it is a site in english language that you have to alter the original names or appelations. You can write the original name and put into bracets your english translation if you think your readers, who all are passionate by racing cars history, are so stupid that they cannot translate or understand by themselves!
I remind you, I wrote it in another thread in TNF, that the official language of the FIA in 1950 and after was French. And it was french until golden Bernie and Max the terror grasped the governing body!
I also remind you that the first title of the 1950 British GP was GP d'Europe and in minor letters "incorporating British GP".

#33 David McKinney

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 19:05

Originally posted by macoran
I couldn't care less if it is an English language site or not, THERE NEVER WAS a Grand Prix of the French Automobile Club.

It was sometimes referred to as the ACF Grand Prix (but far more often as the French Grand Prix)

In spite of my earlier post, I don't really care either way - I was really just talking about consistency
If such a small percentage of people using the site is English-speaking, then I guess the official titles of the race-hosting country have to be used
On the other hand, how many of the 40-45% of visitors are reasonably proficient in English?
And should words for laps, time, speed, reasons for retirement etc also be in the language of the race-hosting country?



#34 Allen Brown

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 19:09

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
... if you think your readers, who all are passionate by racing cars history, are so stupid that they cannot translate or understand by themselves!

I don't think that's a helpful comment. You've already seen my response to your original point.

#35 GIGLEUX

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 19:11

Originally posted by Allen Brown
I don't think that's a helpful comment. You've already seen my response to your original point.


My response was to David comments and not yours, Allen.

#36 Allen Brown

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 19:32

Having been delving in the database, the situation regarding race titles on ORC is very mixed at the moment, depending largely on who has been compiling the race data. Here is a full list of the F1 and F2 (and equivalent libre races) currently on the site, excluding races in the UK.

I'd be very happy to change any that are inappropriately anglicised.

Argentina

Argentine Grand Prix
Buenos Aires Grand Prix

Austria

Austrian Grand Prix
Flugplatzrennen
Flugplatzrennen Tulln-Langenlebarn
Preis von Tirol
Preis von Wien

Australia

Australian Grand Prix
Tasmanian International
Victorian Trophy

Belgium

Belgian Grand Prix
Brussels Grand Prix
Grand Prix de Bruxelles
Grote Prijs van Limborg

Bahrain

Bahrain Grand Prix

Brazil

Brazilian Grand Prix
Grand Prix Presidente Medici
Torneio Brasiliero

Canada

Canadian Grand Prix

Switzerland

Grand Prix des Nations
Swiss Grand Prix

China

Chinese Grand Prix

Colombia

Bogotá Grand Prix
Colombia Grand Prix

Germany

ADAC Eifelrennen
Eifelrennen
European Grand Prix
German Grand Prix
Grosser Preis der Solitude
Grosser Preis von Berlin
Grosser Preis von Deutschland
Jim-Clark-Gedächtnis-Rennen
Jochen Rindt Trophy
Luxembourg Grand Prix

Spain

European Grand Prix
Gran Premio de Barcelona
Gran Premio de Madrid
Grand Prix de Madrid
Penya Rhin Grand Prix
Spanish Grand Prix

Finland

Suomen Grand Prix

France

Albi Grand Prix
Bordeaux Grand Prix
Caen Grand Prix
Coupe du Salon
Coupe Internationale de Vitesse
French Grand Prix
Grand Prix d'Albi
Grand Prix de I'lle de France
Grand Prix de L'ile de France
Grand Prix de Pau
Grand Prix de Reims
Grand Prix de Rouen
Grand Prix des Frontieres
Paris Grand Prix
Prix de Paris
Prix du Président de la Republique Française
Reims Grand Prix
Trophae Craven A
Trophee d'Auvergne

Hungary

Hungarian Grand Prix

Italy

Bari Grand Prix
Coppa d'Oro di Sicilia
Coppa Italia
Gran Premio di Modena
Gran Premio di Pergusa
Gran Premio di Roma
Gran Premio di Siracusa
Gran Premio Madunina
Grand Prix di Dino Ferrari
Grand Prix Republica Italiana
Imola Grand Prix
Italian Grand Prix
Mediterranean Grand Prix
Modena Grand Prix
Naples Grand Prix
Pescara Grand Prix
Rome Grand Prix
San Marino Grand Prix
San Remo Grand Prix
Syracuse Grand Prix

Japan

Japanese Grand Prix
Pacific Grand Prix

Morocco

Moroccan Grand Prix

Monaco

Monaco Grand Prix

Mexico

Mexican Grand Prix

Malaysia

Malaysian Grand Prix

Netherlands

Dutch Grand Prix

Portugal

Portuguese Grand Prix

Sweden

Kanonloppet
Mantorp Park Grand Prix
Swedish Grand Prix

Turkey

Turkish Grand Prix

United States of America

Caesars Palace Grand Prix
Dallas Grand Prix
Indianapolis 500
Questor Grand Prix
USA Detroit Grand Prix
USA Grand Prix
USA West Grand Prix

South Africa

Border "100"
Cape Grand Prix
Natal Grand Prix
Rand Grand Prix
South African Grand Prix

#37 brickyard

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 19:35

Originally posted by GIGLEUX


My response was to David comments and not yours, Allen.



OK fellows, let's cool down please...

In my databases I use the original language race name and circuit and a GP code column with the race name in portuguese but just to remind me of what that means (such is the case of the Hungarian GP), but the original name is very important to me.

For instance in 1952 we had 2 French GP's: the "Grand Prix de l'ACF" at Rouen-les-Essarts counting to the World Championship and at Reims-les-Gueux the "Grand Prix de France" as an extra-championship race.
Some years ago I've steped on an article that give the Reims winner Jean Behra as the winner of the French GP counting for the WC, and I've taked that for granted for some years until I discover the real "French GP" was until 1971 the GP de l'ACF.

#38 VDP

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 19:36

Grote Prijs van Limburg

Robert

#39 brickyard

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 19:40

To Allen,

Portugal

Portuguese Grand Prix = Grande Prémio de Portugal

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#40 GIGLEUX

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 20:00

Brickyard: just let me correct you about little things. Reims-Gueux (and not les Gueux is the name of the circuit). Usually the ACF GPs were raced at Reims, but when it was not the case the races on circuit were named Grand de la Marne (Marne is the name of the district around Reims). Exception, 1949 were the race was called officially GP de France.
In 1952 there was a serie of Grands Prix named Grands Prix de France: Pau, Marseille, Paris, Reims (Marne GP), Rouen (ACF GP), Les Sables d'Olonne, Saint Gaudens (Comminges GP), La Baule.

Allen: it is evident I'll help you with the french names.

#41 conjohn

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 20:13

Sweden

According to the official programs:

1973: Hitachi Grand Prix of Sweden
1974: Texaco Grand Prix of Sweden
1975: Polar Grand Prix of Sweden
1976: Can't find my program....
1977: Gislaved Grand Prix of Sweden
1978: Grand Prix of Sweden

...so rather Grand Prix of Sweden than Swedish Grand Prix.


/Conny

#42 brickyard

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 20:22

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
Brickyard: just let me correct you about little things. Reims-Gueux (and not les Gueux is the name of the circuit). Usually the ACF GPs were raced at Reims, but when it was not the case the races on circuit were named Grand de la Marne (Marne is the name of the district around Reims). Exception, 1949 were the race was called officially GP de France.
In 1952 there was a serie of Grands Prix named Grands Prix de France: Pau, Marseille, Paris, Reims (Marne GP), Rouen (ACF GP), Les Sables d'Olonne, Saint Gaudens (Comminges GP), La Baule.

Allen: it is evident I'll help you with the french names.


:up: Thanks for the infos. (which in any case I already knew)

Les Gueux was what we here in Portugal call a simpaty error, as I was thinking in Les Essarts :blush:

BTW, it's GP des Comminges or de Comminges?

#43 D-Type

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 20:30

I think the only case where the name matters is the GP de l'ACF because of its historical significance.

Having said that, I would like to see the race names in their native language. However, being virtually mono-lingual like most native English speakers I would appreciate a translation when it isn't bleedingly obvious.

Which leads to a further question: in bilingual countries like Belgium and South Africa did the GP have two names?

#44 macoran

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 20:38

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Having been delving in the database, the situation regarding race titles on ORC is very mixed at the moment, depending largely on who has been compiling the race data. Here is a full list of the F1 and F2 (and equivalent libre races) currently on the site, excluding races in the UK.

I'd be very happy to change any that are inappropriately anglicised.


Netherlands

Dutch Grand Prix


Just an example, here we go again....

When was this race run ? I don't know of any Dutch Grand Prix

The term Dutch doesn't exist in Holland/Nederland

But I'll refrain from further comments, probably useless anyway.

#45 Vitesse2

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 20:40

I've seen the Belgian GP rendered in both French and Flemish, although I think it depended on where it was held: French for Spa and Nivelles, Flemish for Zolder.

I've never seen the Swiss GP named in Italian or Romansch though. In the 30s, the preferred language for it appears to have been German rather than French.

#46 GIGLEUX

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 21:09

Originally posted by brickyard


:up: Thanks for the infos. (which in any case I already knew)

Les Gueux was what we here in Portugal call a simpaty error, as I was thinking in Les Essarts :blush:

BTW, it's GP des Comminges or de Comminges?


It is GP du Comminges.

#47 brickyard

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 21:24

Originally posted by GIGLEUX


It is GP du Comminges.



Merci! :wave:

#48 Rob Ryder

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 21:30

Originally posted by conjohn
Sweden

According to the official programs:

1973: Hitachi Grand Prix of Sweden
1974: Texaco Grand Prix of Sweden
1975: Polar Grand Prix of Sweden
1976: Can't find my program....
1977: Gislaved Grand Prix of Sweden
1978: Grand Prix of Sweden
...so rather Grand Prix of Sweden than Swedish Grand Prix.
/Conny

This throws another interesting one into the pot.

If it is decided to be totally accurate with the race names, should all of the later Grand Prix have the full 'sponsored' name? Woolmark, John Player, Hitachi, Marlboro and many others?
Just asking :cool:
Rob

#49 brickyard

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 21:42

Originally posted by Rob Ryder

This throws another interesting one into the pot.

If it is decided to be totally accurate with the race names, should all of the later Grand Prix have the full 'sponsored' name? Woolmark, John Player, Hitachi, Marlboro and many others?
Just asking :cool:
Rob


I would say... yes. That's how I have them on my database.

#50 GIGLEUX

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Posted 11 October 2007 - 21:53

Originally posted by Vitesse2
I've seen the Belgian GP rendered in both French and Flemish, although I think it depended on where it was held: French for Spa and Nivelles, Flemish for Zolder.

I've never seen the Swiss GP named in Italian or Romansch though. In the 30s, the preferred language for it appears to have been German rather than French.


I have the 1973 Belgian GP programme at Zolder, which was also the Grand Prix d'Europe. All is in French AND in Flemish: Grote Prijs van Europa and Grand Prix d'Europe. They indicate the winners of all the Grote Prijs van Belgie. All the advertising are in Flemish and to put all people on same level it is writen on the front cover: Grand Prix of Europe!
I have all the programmes of the Swiss GP: every time it is Grosser Preis der Schweiz. Bern is in the German language area of Switzerland. In 1948 it was Grosser Preis von Europa.