Jump to content


Photo

The 1950 Formula 1 season


  • Please log in to reply
172 replies to this topic

#51 Allen Brown

Allen Brown
  • Member

  • 5,291 posts
  • Joined: December 00

Posted 11 October 2007 - 22:11

Originally posted by macoran


Just an example, here we go again....

When was this race run ? I don't know of any Dutch Grand Prix

The term Dutch doesn't exist in Holland/Nederland

But I'll refrain from further comments, probably useless anyway.

Marc

Can I please point out that the phrase 'Dutch Grand Prix' is taken from a list that I am suggesting are changed because the names may be inappropriately anglicised.

You raised this issue and I am trying to respond to it.

Perhaps you are right that you should refrain from further comment if you're not willing to be constructive.

Allen

Advertisement

#52 Allen Brown

Allen Brown
  • Member

  • 5,291 posts
  • Joined: December 00

Posted 11 October 2007 - 22:29

Originally posted by VDP
Grote Prijs van Limburg

Originally posted by brickyard
Portuguese Grand Prix = Grande Prémio de Portugal

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
Allen: it is evident I'll help you with the french names.

Originally posted by conjohn
...so rather Grand Prix of Sweden than Swedish Grand Prix.

Thanks all, and also to those of you who've explored the complex issue of the GP held in the country that I'm tentatively calling Belgium.

All of these corrections are most welcome and I appreciate that you've taken the time to post.

Originally posted by brickyard
OK fellows, let's cool down please...

Well said Luis. I will too.

Allen

#53 macoran

macoran
  • Member

  • 3,989 posts
  • Joined: August 05

Posted 11 October 2007 - 22:35

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Marc

Can I please point out that the phrase 'Dutch Grand Prix' is taken from a list that I am suggesting are changed because the names may be inappropriately anglicised.

You raised this issue and I am trying to respond to it.

Perhaps you are right that you should refrain from further comment if you're not willing to be constructive.

Allen


My apologies Allen, I re-read your post, and I am in error.
Afraid my fuse was a bit short there.

#54 Racer.Demon

Racer.Demon
  • Member

  • 1,709 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 11 October 2007 - 22:43

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Should I change the event names to their local language? So Gran Premio San Remo, Grand Prix de Bordeaux, Grote Prijs van Nederland, Preis von Ostschweiz-Erlen and so on? I think I probably should.


It's a tough choice, especially with the minor events that have no obvious anglicised version such as 'Dutch GP', but I didn't. See my list here:

http://8w.forix.com/...ear/gp-yby.html

I would even go as far to say that I strongly disagree with my countryman macoran. If you maintain an English-language site, then simple English titles instead of the official ones should be your first choice, simply with the aim of being clear.

For instance, how would you put the Japanese GP in its original name and at the same time make the majority of your readers understand? If you want to do it the 'proper' way, you would even have to use Japanese signs. Now that's what I call overshooting your mark.

If you want to be historically correct, then you could always add the original title between brackets, with the event sponsor (if any) and edition number with it, if you like.

#55 GIGLEUX

GIGLEUX
  • Member

  • 1,519 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 11 October 2007 - 23:19

Don't agree with you about GP of Japan. Have a look here:

http://www.progcover...tor/suzuka.html

#56 Hugo Boecker

Hugo Boecker
  • Member

  • 699 posts
  • Joined: May 04

Posted 12 October 2007 - 07:18

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
Don't agree with you about GP of Japan. Have a look here:

http://www.progcover...tor/suzuka.html

and compare with that
http://www.progcover...motor/fuji.html
surprising

#57 Rob29

Rob29
  • Member

  • 3,510 posts
  • Joined: January 01

Posted 12 October 2007 - 07:19

We seem to got way of subject here,but re.'JapaneseGP' The title of the 1976 race at Fuji was 'F1 race in Japan' acording to the podium.I believe the title 'Japanese Grand Prix' was at that time held by the F2 race at Suzuka.

#58 Racer.Demon

Racer.Demon
  • Member

  • 1,709 posts
  • Joined: November 99

Posted 12 October 2007 - 09:14

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
Don't agree with you about GP of Japan. Have a look here:

http://www.progcover...tor/suzuka.html


But Jean-Maurice, how would an English-language programme be proof of the fact that the official title of the race was in English? And the Japanese GP was simply an example. The same could apply to other exotic events, where the anglicised version is simply the smarter option.

It's besides the point anyway. If you're out to create a proper list of official race titles, by all means, use all the original-language titles. But if it's for an English-language website and the race names are simply needed to bring across other facts, then the anglicised versions - if possible - are much more preferable to me.

Here's another comparison: in an English report about, say, the 1975 German GP, you'd speak about Carlos Reutemann winning the German GP for Brabham instead of him winning the Grosser Preis von Deutschland in a Martini Racing Brabham-Ford Cosworth DFV BT44B for the sole purpose of trying to be accurate every time.

#59 Allen Brown

Allen Brown
  • Member

  • 5,291 posts
  • Joined: December 00

Posted 12 October 2007 - 14:00

Mattijs makes some good points. I have no desire to overshoot my mark.

I have made some straightforward changes and, where the title has changed significantly, I have added the English name in brackets. It is interesting that the Dutch language wikipedia has 'Dutch Grand Prix' in brackets after the title of its national race. Wikipedia is rubbish of course - the English version saying that the official name of the French GP changed from "ACF Grand Prix" to "French Grand Prix" in 1967.

Those changes are made and will be reflected on the site shortly. If anyone proposes further changes, I will be very happy to consider them.

Until then, I'd propose we get back to the original subject. And I have news on that - to follow shortly.

Advertisement

#60 Allen Brown

Allen Brown
  • Member

  • 5,291 posts
  • Joined: December 00

Posted 12 October 2007 - 14:15

Michael raised the point of not being able to use copyrighted pictures on this thread, even if we're using them for genuine research purposes - i.e claiming 'Fair Use'. I raised this with Bira and she has allowed me to post her reply:

Hi Allen,

I am not in any legal position to waive copyright for any material that is not owned by me (or, more correctly, Haymarket).

All I can do is tell you that I will not intervene in this thread and will only remove a photo if a specific complaint is received.

Moreover, it should be your (the poster's) responsibility to ensure he/she is not breaching copyright laws, and where possible, obtain permission from the copyright holder.

I will only assume that you are all adhering to that and, as I said, I will not get involved or remove images unless a copyright holder contacts us.

I hope this helps?

Cheers,

Bira

UK law - as autosport.com is published in the UK - says "for the purposes of research for a non-commercial purpose does not infringe any copyright in the work provided it is accompanied by a sufficient acknowledgement". We're doing reseach for a non-commercial purpose on this thread so we might be able to get away with it. It's here, section 29, if anyone wants to read it. So let's acknowledge the sources of our pictures, get permission where we can, and agree to remove them straight away if somebody objects.

Allen

#61 Michael Müller

Michael Müller
  • Member

  • 1,179 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 12 October 2007 - 16:02

Originally posted by Allen Brown
So let's acknowledge the sources of our pictures, get permission where we can, and agree to remove them straight away if somebody objects.

For most of the photos in my archive I have no sources, and to ask permission therefore is inpracticable.
Sporadically I post photos anyway - as I've done here in this thread -, but that's not the rule.

#62 D-Type

D-Type
  • Member

  • 8,991 posts
  • Joined: February 03

Posted 12 October 2007 - 16:21

I’ve had a second and third look at what you've done and it’s brilliant! :up: :up:

A couple of minor comments on layout, which may have been forced on you by the database logic

1. Race Title
As Don Cappswould say, I’m flogging a pallet of canned dog food here, but I suggest
On the index "French Grand Prix"
On the page “Grand Prix de l’ACF (French Grand Prix)”
or even “Grand Prix de l’Automobile Club de France (French Grand Prix)"

2. World Championship races
Why not do them in bold on the index
or say “World Championship Round 3 – French GP”
I see no need for anything on the page

3. Shared drives
I think this could be shown better, but appreciate the constraints imposee by the database. How about:
Alternative 1 – Charles Pozzi/Georges Grignard in the driver’s name. Or will this compromise searchability?
Alternative 2 – Do it as a ‘Note on the cars’. Conveys the information but compromises the purity of presentation.
Alternative 3 - Under "Place" put the placing in the box for the first-named and a blank or underscore [_] in the second. Or does this foul up the sort function and spoil searchability?
UnderTime/speed, put ‘Shared drive’ only for the second name allowing you to put the time for the first:
Like this
2	Alberto Ascari	Ferrari etc	80	2h 51' 49.7

_	Dorino Serafini	Ferrari etc	80	Shared drive


4. DNS, DNP, DNA
I like the different categories. Is it worth adding a reason if known, e.g.
DNS – Practice crash
DNS – engine failure in practice
DNA – Transporter hi-jacked by Bjorn ;)

5. Missing and ambiguous data
I didn't see any, but you can always say "Not known" put (tentative) after something


And finally, a couple of queries/omissions:

British GP – who shared which ERA E-Type with whom? There's something wrong with what's shown
Daily Express International Trophy – Heat 2 results are missing?
Jersey Road Race – Notes 5 and 8 are the same why not just say ‘See Note 5’ on both results. Or does that mess up database searchability?

#63 fw07c

fw07c
  • Member

  • 170 posts
  • Joined: January 06

Posted 13 October 2007 - 10:07

Hi Allan Brown
Whilst I accept your rationale for claiming that the car used by Clemente Biondetti in the 1950 Italian Grand Prix was a “Biondetti Special” the web page for the 1950 Italian GP show two versions namely on the results page its states:-

"R Clemente Biondetti (4.5 F1) 3.4-litre Biondetti Special - Jaguar XK120 s6 #22 C Biondetti 1Engine"

But on the qualifying page it states:-

"25 Clemente Biondetti (4.5 F1) 3.4-litre Ferrari Jaguar 166I-[07] - Jaguar XK120 s6 2' 30.6"

It seems that you are backing both possibilities?

#64 Michael Müller

Michael Müller
  • Member

  • 1,179 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 13 October 2007 - 10:16

Clemente Biondettis Special regularly is described as Ferrari-Jaguar.
This is wrong. The chassis was a mix out of Maserati, Jaguar, and "Biondetti" parts, the engine was a Jaguar XK 3.4 litre, and the bodywork came from the 166 Spyder Corsa #002C. After the Besanas stopped racing 002C in 1950 was fitted with a full roadster body by Motto, and the SC coachwork was obsolete.

#65 Hieronymus

Hieronymus
  • Member

  • 2,032 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 13 October 2007 - 11:54

Originally posted by D-Type
Which leads to a further question: in bilingual countries like Belgium and South Africa did the GP have two names?


In South Africa, being officially bilingual at the time we staged Grands Prix, we used the following:

English = SOUTH AFRICAN GRAND PRIX or GRAND PRIX of SOUTH AFRICA

Afrikaans = SUID-AFRIKAANSE GRAND PRIX or GRAND PRIX van SUID-AFRIKA

In "pure" Afrikaans, "GRAND PRIX" will actually be "GROOT PRYS", but it sounds a bit rudiculous. It was thus directly loaned from the French.

South Africa now has eleven official languages... :smoking:

#66 fw07c

fw07c
  • Member

  • 170 posts
  • Joined: January 06

Posted 13 October 2007 - 16:51

Allan
On re-checking Italian GP web page. It seems that the difference between qualifying and race results of the 1950 Italian Grend Prix are the same and it now reads

Clemente Biondetti (4.5 F1) 3.4-litre Biondetti Special - Jaguar XK120 s6 #22 C Biondetti 1Engine

so its a Biondetti Special now!

Cheers

#67 Allen Brown

Allen Brown
  • Member

  • 5,291 posts
  • Joined: December 00

Posted 14 October 2007 - 11:08

Originally posted by fw07c
Hi Allan Brown
Whilst I accept your rationale for claiming that the car used by Clemente Biondetti in the 1950 Italian Grand Prix was a “Biondetti Special” the web page for the 1950 Italian GP show two versions namely on the results page its states:-

"R Clemente Biondetti (4.5 F1) 3.4-litre Biondetti Special - Jaguar XK120 s6 #22 C Biondetti 1Engine"

But on the qualifying page it states:-

"25 Clemente Biondetti (4.5 F1) 3.4-litre Ferrari Jaguar 166I-[07] - Jaguar XK120 s6 2' 30.6"

It seems that you are backing both possibilities?

Originally posted by fw07c
Allan
On re-checking Italian GP web page. It seems that the difference between qualifying and race results of the 1950 Italian Grend Prix are the same and it now reads

Clemente Biondetti (4.5 F1) 3.4-litre Biondetti Special - Jaguar XK120 s6 #22 C Biondetti 1Engine

so its a Biondetti Special now!

Cheers

I'm mystified by this. I haven't (yet) done an update to these pages since they were published last week and I don't believe this car was at any stage identified as a "Ferrari Jaguar 166I". What you're seeing now should be what was there last week - i.e. Biondetti Special.

Allen

#68 Allen Brown

Allen Brown
  • Member

  • 5,291 posts
  • Joined: December 00

Posted 14 October 2007 - 11:22

Originally posted by D-Type
I’ve had a second and third look at what you've done and it’s brilliant! :up: :up:

Thank you.

Originally posted by D-Type
A couple of minor comments on layout, which may have been forced on you by the database logic

1. Race Title
As Don Cappswould say, I’m flogging a pallet of canned dog food here, but I suggest
On the index "French Grand Prix"
On the page “Grand Prix de l’ACF (French Grand Prix)”
or even “Grand Prix de l’Automobile Club de France (French Grand Prix)"

I'll do that.

Originally posted by D-Type
2. World Championship races
Why not do them in bold on the index
or say “World Championship Round 3 – French GP”
I see no need for anything on the page

Good idea. I'll do that too.

Originally posted by D-Type
3. Shared drives
I think this could be shown better, but appreciate the constraints imposee by the database. How about:
Alternative 1 – Charles Pozzi/Georges Grignard in the driver’s name. Or will this compromise searchability?
Alternative 2 – Do it as a ‘Note on the cars’. Conveys the information but compromises the purity of presentation.
Alternative 3 - Under "Place" put the placing in the box for the first-named and a blank or underscore [_] in the second. Or does this foul up the sort function and spoil searchability?
UnderTime/speed, put ‘Shared drive’ only for the second name allowing you to put the time for the first:
Like this

2	Alberto Ascari	Ferrari etc	80	2h 51' 49.7

_	Dorino Serafini	Ferrari etc	80	Shared drive

You are right that some limitations are placed on me by the current form of my database - which was designed for the 1966-1985 F1 period where there were no shared drives. Alternative 1 would therefore require a lot of work. Alternative 2 is a good compromise but the footnote follows the car everywhere it appears so that wouldn't work either. Alternative 3 should be possible and I think will work well. I'll investigate that.

Originally posted by D-Type
4. DNS, DNP, DNA
I like the different categories. Is it worth adding a reason if known, e.g.
DNS – Practice crash
DNS – engine failure in practice
DNA – Transporter hi-jacked by Bjorn ;)

The reason is there is it's known but I may need to do some more work recording those reasons. Non-starting because of a crash is its own category (DNSC) because that's always a useful thing when you're looking at a car's career. If it is never seen again after a DNSC, you have a clue where to look.

Originally posted by D-Type
5. Missing and ambiguous data
I didn't see any, but you can always say "Not known" put (tentative) after something.

If something is unknown, it will typically be blank. This will make a big difference when I do the (overdue) update as most of the 1950 Ferrari chassis numbers will disappear as Michael Müller believes a definitive identification is usually impossible on the evidence we have so far. The F1 Register data that I have incorporated contains too many assumptions. In place of the chassis numbers will be footnotes for each Ferrari appearance explaining what we do know about the car and, in some case, saying what it was likely to be. For example the early 1949 cars 08C and 12C cannot be tracked with confidence through 1950 from photographs as they had been rebodied, or renosed at least, this losing their distinctive features from 1949.

Originally posted by D-Type
And finally, a couple of queries/omissions:

British GP – who shared which ERA E-Type with whom? There's something wrong with what's shown
Daily Express International Trophy – Heat 2 results are missing?

Oops! I'll fix both of those.

Originally posted by D-Type
Jersey Road Race – Notes 5 and 8 are the same why not just say ‘See Note 5’ on both results. Or does that mess up database searchability?

No, it's just sloppy programming. I'll have another look at it.

Thanks very much for this input - it's all very helpful.

Allen

#69 ReWind

ReWind
  • Member

  • 2,745 posts
  • Joined: October 03

Posted 14 October 2007 - 14:56

@Allen: If you put the car in front of the drivers you should have less problems with the presentation of shared drives.

I’ll take the 1950 Italian GP as an example.

Your presentation is like this:
[u]Pos.[/u] [u]Driver		  [/u]  Car								   Result

					   [u]No.[/u] [u]Entrant		[/u]   [u]Engine	   [/u]   [u]laps[/u] [u]time[/u]

  2  Alberto Ascari	Ferrari 375 [375-1] - Ferrari V12† 

					   #48 Scuderia Ferrari				   80  Shared drive 

  2  Dorino Serafini   Ferrari 375 [375-1] - Ferrari V12† 

					   #48 Scuderia Ferrari				   80  Shared drive
You unneccessarily repeat the car info and the result but you have no room to show the time. That isn’t the best solution IMO.

I would suggest to present the result like this:
[u]Pos.[/u] Car													   Result

	 [u]Entrant		 [/u]	  [u]Engine	 [/u]   [u]No.[/u]  [u]Driver		[/u]   [u]laps[/u] [u]time	  [/u]

  2  Ferrari 375 [375-1] - Ferrari V12†  #48  Dorino Serafini   24

	 Scuderia Ferrari						 Alberto Ascari	[u]56[/u]  shared drive

																80  2:52.36,0
Please note that the numbers of laps per driver are only guesses for the sake of showing what I mean. Don’t take 24 and 56 as hard facts.

I hope the advantages of my presentation are visible. There is only one car in second place of the race and therefore the info on that appears only once. You have room to show how much laps each driver contributed to the shared drive. And you have room to insert the combined time.

BTW: Regardless of the way you present the dates I think you ALWAYS should show the driver first who started the race in a particular car. From your presentation one is led to believe Serafini took over Ascari’s car while in fact it was the other way round.

#70 Allen Brown

Allen Brown
  • Member

  • 5,291 posts
  • Joined: December 00

Posted 14 October 2007 - 15:10

Reinhard

That makes a lot of sense. I'll experiment.

Allen

#71 uechtel

uechtel
  • Member

  • 1,782 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 14 October 2007 - 16:25

Originally posted by ReWind
BTW: Regardless of the way you present the dates I think you ALWAYS should show the driver first who started the race in a particular car. From your presentation one is led to believe Serafini took over Ascari’s car while in fact it was the other way round. [/B]


But this works only as long as there is only one stint per driver. The best example is of course Argentina 1955. Why not doing it completely right, means listing all stints separately in correct order?

#72 Allen Brown

Allen Brown
  • Member

  • 5,291 posts
  • Joined: December 00

Posted 14 October 2007 - 17:52

New release of 1950 now available

The main changes are:

* HWM histories completely reevaluated using photographic evidence
* Ferrari histories completely re-done thanks to Michael Muller
* Footnote histories of all the Ferraris
* Footnote histories of all the ERAs
* Much improved Talbot-Lago footnote histories
* Much improved HWM footnote histories
* Race titles mostly de-anglicised
* J-MG’s changes to the Monaco entry list
* Further Maserati identities based on photogaphic evidence

The bulk of the knowledge has come from Adam Ferrington, David McKinney and Michael Müller who have amazing expertise on this period.

Nothing has been done on the Alfettas yet (I'm not sure anything can) and there are also some pre-war Maseratis and some Simca-Gordinis that don't have footnote histories yet. The changes to shared drives haven't been attempted yet, nor have some of D-Type's recent comments.

All input is most welcome.

Allen

#73 Allen Brown

Allen Brown
  • Member

  • 5,291 posts
  • Joined: December 00

Posted 16 October 2007 - 10:21

Does anyone have the entry list for the 1950 Italian GP? We're trying to sort out Gigi Plate's "Talbot".

Thanks

Allen

#74 uechtel

uechtel
  • Member

  • 1,782 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 16 October 2007 - 10:35

Some further remarks:

Richmond Trophy:
Your stats seem to be directly transcripted from Sheldon´s Black Book. As lucky owner of his "Addenda" he gives some corrections there. Because of Sheldon´s system I don´t know whether these represent the official results or not:
#24 dns
3rd Shawe-Taylor 11 21'00.5''
4th Harrison 10
5th Whitehead (G) 10
6th Abecassis 8
7th Murray 7
ret Bira 7
ret Fotheringham-Parker 4
ret Watson 1

San Remo
Rudi Fischer: The SVA was announced in two versions, a 1.1 litre for "normal" use (optional with or without supercharge) plus a 820 cc version specially for American midget racing. To me it is not clear whether this 820 cc version actually existed, but as all sources refer to Fischer testing the 1.1 litre version I strongly assume, that this was the version he used in the race.

The SVA was a design of Savonuzzi and built by Soc. Valdostani Automotori, hence "SVA".

Posted Image
(Automobil Revue from early 1950)

Also for certain reasons (http://forums.autosp...&threadid=51633 Post #33ff) as long as there is no original list of entries available I doubt the "Ecurie Espadon" entry.

Same again for the Swiss GP so perhaps with an official race programme anybody able to give Fischer´s entry there?

Spa
Sheldon corrects himself promoting Etancelin to 6th on the grid with a practise time of 4'48'' with Ascari and Rosier both on 4'49''.

Goodwood
From Sheldon´s addenda:
"Peter Whitehead drove ERA R10B; Graham Whitehead drove ERA R5B; delete "15 dns";
Results:
2. Bira 12 21'10.8
3. Gerard 12 21'39.4
4. de Graffendried 12 21'39.8
5. Shawe-Taylor 12 21'41.0
6. G Whitehead 12 21'52.0
7. Moss 12 22'15.0
8. Hampshire 12 22'24.4
9. Hamilton 12 22'48.0
10. Richardson 9
11. Claes 9
12. Watson 9
13. P Whitehead 9
ret Ashmore 6
ret Abecassis 2"

#75 Hugo Boecker

Hugo Boecker
  • Member

  • 699 posts
  • Joined: May 04

Posted 16 October 2007 - 12:26

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Does anyone have the entry list for the 1950 Italian GP? We're trying to sort out Gigi Plate's "Talbot".

Thanks
Allen

Plate's Talbot was one of the ex Materassi Talbot 700 s. In 1949 Plate fitted the original mechanic into a newly built tubular-chassis. There is a report in Classic Sportcar March 96.
So I think you have to call the car 'Plate-Talbot 700 Special' or some thing like that.

#76 Allen Brown

Allen Brown
  • Member

  • 5,291 posts
  • Joined: December 00

Posted 16 October 2007 - 13:29

Thanks Hugo

I just dug that article out of the garage and it's a very interesting read. Sean Danaher did a beautiful job returning the car to near-original condition.

Where does the "700" designation come from? I've only seen that in the Black Books. Mick Walsh doesn't mention it in his article. And would they have been regarded as Talbot-Darracqs rather than simply Talbots?

Also, is it my imagination or is there a grave accent over the e in Plate on the engine cam covers? Walsh spell Plate with an acute accent in the article.

The main reason for seeking the entry list is to see if Plate really did have two cars entered (#34 and #60 IIRC) or one of those is a typo.

Allen

#77 Allen Brown

Allen Brown
  • Member

  • 5,291 posts
  • Joined: December 00

Posted 16 October 2007 - 13:37

Originally posted by uechtel
Some further remarks:

Thanks Uechtel. I do have that addenda so I really have no excuse. Rob Ryder put together the original race results from a wide variety of sources but some whole races may have come from the Black Books - especially lesser known races. You will notice that a number of the races in the Black Books have been omitted as they were really only club races.

The SVA makes much more sense as a 1100cc. Quite a few cars appeared with 1100cc engines about that time although I don't really understand why that capacity was so popular. There wasn't any formula that was limited to 1100cc at that time was there?

Allen

#78 GIGLEUX

GIGLEUX
  • Member

  • 1,519 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 16 October 2007 - 15:31

XXI Gran Premio d'Italia. Auto Italiana, in its pre-race number, gave the entry list (communicated by the organizers, of course) and we have:
22 Biondetti X
34 X Platé
60 X Platé

In their race report: Biondetti Jaguar 3500. Always about Biondetti, he was at first announced with a Maserati.
The Autocar published two pictures of his car: "Biondetti in his special, Ferrari chassis and Jaguar XK120 engine and gearbox.". The Motor (27/9/1950 p.168): "Biondetti's plucky 3.5-litre Jaguar-engined two-seater sports Ferrari".

#79 Allen Brown

Allen Brown
  • Member

  • 5,291 posts
  • Joined: December 00

Posted 16 October 2007 - 16:06

Thanks Jean-Maurice.

Which is the driver column and which the car? Is it Biondetti driving an X and two Plates entered for X and X or is it a X driving a Biondetti and Plate driving two Xs? I guess it's the first.

(Did Auto Italiana give that accent on his name?)

That car might end up being called a Talbot-Plate or Plate-Talbot. Much like the later F2 Plate-Maseratis. It ran in 1949 so I'll have to address it sooner or later.

David and Adam have been working on the "Biondetti Special" and concluded that it was generally referred to as a "Ferrari-Jaguar" in period (The Motor, but also Whyte's book) but that the only major Ferrari component was the body. The chassis was mostly Maserati (according to Skilleter p233). Perhaps Michael knows whether the suspension was Maserati or Ferrari. Calling it a Biondetti Special probably isn't the right thing to do but it wasn't a Ferrari either.

Advertisement

#80 GIGLEUX

GIGLEUX
  • Member

  • 1,519 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 16 October 2007 - 16:55

Originally posted by uechtel
Some further remarks:
Also for certain reasons (http://forums.autosp...&threadid=51633 Post #33ff) as long as there is no original list of entries available I doubt the "Ecurie Espadon" entry.

Same again for the Swiss GP so perhaps with an official race programme anybody able to give Fischer´s entry there?


Markus, I wrote precedently, in this thread, I have all the Swiss GP (Grosser Preis der Schweiz) programmes so:
n°38 Entrant: Rudolf Fischer, Zürich Driver: Fischer Rudolf Car: SVA

#81 Michael Müller

Michael Müller
  • Member

  • 1,179 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 16 October 2007 - 17:36

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Perhaps Michael knows whether the suspension was Maserati or Ferrari. Calling it a Biondetti Special probably isn't the right thing to do but it wasn't a Ferrari either.

No idea about Maserati suspension, but based on the photos I have it is not Ferrari.
And even more important - all Ferrari chassis up to 1950 are rather good documented, and afaik none is missing which could be used for Biondetti's special.

#82 GIGLEUX

GIGLEUX
  • Member

  • 1,519 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 16 October 2007 - 18:44

Allen of course it is N°-Driver-Car.

Auto Italiana and other sources always wrote Platé.

Now about the cars: as far as I know three Talbot (Darracq) were built in 1926. Even in 1927 when bought by Materassi modifications began, front and rear suspensions. Luigi (Gigi) Platé bought them in the mid thirties. In 1936 one was sold to Mario Massacurati, South Africa and remained there. In 1937 a second one was sold in England to Powys-Lybbe and too remained there. Gigi Platé kept the third and modified it constantly: the ladder chassis was changed for a space frame, hydraulic brakes and bigger drums, different bodies too; but it remained an offset-single seater. About the engine no doubts it was modified: carbs, blower and certainly internals; even the camshaft covers were changed with writen on them GIGI PLATE MILANO. So how to call this car and what remained of the original 1926 one? In 1950 the car was entered as a Platé and I think it was, but it is only my opinion, that it must be called a Platé or a Platé Speciale.
After all some of british racing cars are in the same case: I immediately think to the OBM, fully BMW origins but named OBM. How to call the HAR: Riley, ERA?
Last point: three cars built, two sold in 1936 and 1937. Three less two= ONE; and Platé take two entries!

#83 Hugo Boecker

Hugo Boecker
  • Member

  • 699 posts
  • Joined: May 04

Posted 16 October 2007 - 20:06

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Thanks Hugo

I just dug that article out of the garage and it's a very interesting read. Sean Danaher did a beautiful job returning the car to near-original condition.

Where does the "700" designation come from? I've only seen that in the Black Books. Mick Walsh doesn't mention it in his article. And would they have been regarded as Talbot-Darracqs rather than simply Talbots?

Also, is it my imagination or is there a grave accent over the e in Plate on the engine cam covers? Walsh spell Plate with an acute accent in the article.

The main reason for seeking the entry list is to see if Plate really did have two cars entered (#34 and #60 IIRC) or one of those is a typo.

Allen


In the book "Talbot Des Talbot-Darracq aux Talbot-Lago" by Alain Spitz I found that the regulations for the 1927 GP de l'ACF was for car with a minimum weight of 700kg. I think it comes from that race Spitz named the cars La 8 Cylindres 1500-2 A.C.T.

#84 GIGLEUX

GIGLEUX
  • Member

  • 1,519 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 16 October 2007 - 20:18

Originally posted by Hugo Boecker


In the book "Talbot Des Talbot-Darracq aux Talbot-Lago" by Alain Spitz I found that the regulations for the 1927 GP de l'ACF was for car with a minimum weight of 700kg. I think it comes from that race Spitz named the cars La 8 Cylindres 1500-2 A.C.T.


??? But the car first appeared in 1926 and the minimum weight was 600 kg! and the preceding Talbots were known as type 70.

#85 Hugo Boecker

Hugo Boecker
  • Member

  • 699 posts
  • Joined: May 04

Posted 16 October 2007 - 21:06

Serge Bellu in "Blue Blood" gave the weight in 1926 as 715kg and in 1927 as 700kg. Materassi took over the cars in the 1927 form. So I think Sheldon, or the one he copied from, gave the cars the destignation 700 to show that they were in the 27 form.

#86 Vitesse2

Vitesse2
  • Administrator

  • 32,629 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 16 October 2007 - 21:25

Nice theory, Hugo, but I'm afraid it doesn't hold water. Sheldon's text for the RAC British GP on August 7th 1926 comments on the debut of the "new superb looking straight-8 Talbots" and that "they had sold one of their old Type 70 cars to Malcolm Campbell ..."

The 700s had also been entered at Miramas and San Sebastian but were DNAs.

#87 GIGLEUX

GIGLEUX
  • Member

  • 1,519 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 16 October 2007 - 21:44

Hugo, were are going straight on in a confusion between the rules and the weight of the Talbot! In 1926, firts year of the 8-cyl Talbot, the International Formula was for cars of no more than 1500cc, minimum weught 600kg, two-seater bodies, minimum width 80cm. 1927: International Formula (and not only for the ACF GP): 1500cc maxi, minimum weight 700kg, one or two seater body, minimum width 85 cm.As you refer to Spitz's book, at the end of page 196 he wrote, 1926 600kg minimum weight 600kg. Page 204 he wrote that in 1927 the weight of the Talbot was a little more than 800 kg. But we are going out of topic as the thread is on the 1950 season!

#88 uechtel

uechtel
  • Member

  • 1,782 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 16 October 2007 - 22:52

Originally posted by GIGLEUX


Markus, I wrote precedently, in this thread, I have all the Swiss GP (Grosser Preis der Schweiz) programmes so:
n°38 Entrant: Rudolf Fischer, Zürich Driver: Fischer Rudolf Car: SVA


:up:

So I wonder where Sheldon has got that from...

#89 GIGLEUX

GIGLEUX
  • Member

  • 1,519 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 16 October 2007 - 23:02

Originally posted by uechtel


:up:

So I wonder where Sheldon has got that from...


Markus, if you want to sleep quietly, haven' such questions at such an hour!

#90 uechtel

uechtel
  • Member

  • 1,782 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 16 October 2007 - 23:26

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Thanks Uechtel. I do have that addenda so I really have no excuse. Rob Ryder put together the original race results from a wide variety of sources but some whole races may have come from the Black Books - especially lesser known races.


And many of the other sources will be based on the Black Books...

They are really the foundation of almost all statistic efforts I know of. The only thing is that without reference to the sources you never know what of their content is facts and what is conclusion.

You will notice that a number of the races in the Black Books have been omitted as they were really only club races.


You´ll always have to draw a line somewhere.

The SVA makes much more sense as a 1100cc. Quite a few cars appeared with 1100cc engines about that time although I don't really understand why that capacity was so popular. There wasn't any formula that was limited to 1100cc at that time was there?
Allen [/B]


The 1100 cc limit had already quite a long tradition, not only for race cars but probably even more trend-setting for the sports cars. Seemingly it did not need too much effort to get the Fiat (Simca) 1100 engine competitive and it was freely available and comparatively cheap to get one. Certainly that was all it needed to make it a de-facto standard. Also around 1947 I think a 1100 cc capacity limit - whether supercharged or not - had been one of the options that were in discussion for the new "secondary formula".

#91 David McKinney

David McKinney
  • Member

  • 14,156 posts
  • Joined: November 00

Posted 17 October 2007 - 07:34

Further to uechtel's post:
Most major European motor-racing nations all ran 1100 races in the immediate postwar period, and some continued to do so after adopting the international Formula B (F2) in 1948.
France’s early postwar voiturette races were usually for cars with supercharged 1100cc engines or 2000cc unblown. Switzerland ran unblown 1100 races in 1947 and 1948. Britain allowed 1100 supercharged engines, 2500 unsupercharged in those same two years, but seem to have dropped the blown class by 1949. In Italy, races were for cars with unsupercharged 1500 engines, even though most competing cars were 1100s.
By 1948 however Continental organisers - but not those in Britain - had in the main switched to FB.
Belgium did not stage its own voiturette races until 1949, when it enthusiastically adopted F2

#92 Allen Brown

Allen Brown
  • Member

  • 5,291 posts
  • Joined: December 00

Posted 17 October 2007 - 07:56

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Rob Ryder put together the original race results from a wide variety of sources but some whole races may have come from the Black Books - especially lesser known races.

Originally posted by uechtel
And many of the other sources will be based on the Black Books...

I must pick up on this. Rob can speak for himself but my understanding is that he constructed his data from Autocourse, Autosport, Motor Sport and so on before the Black Books were published. He then augmented his data using the Black Books as they appeared. In the case of 1950, where original sources are harder to obtain, a substantial part of his data may well have come from the Black Books.

They are really the foundation of almost all statistic efforts I know of.

That may be true of the many "cut-and-paste" websites recycling F1 data but please bear in mind that ORC has published F1 data from 1966 to 1985; F5000; Can-Am; Formula Atlantic and now F2 all from original sources: magazines, organisers' results sheets, programs, annuals, newspaper reports etc.

The only thing is that without reference to the sources you never know what of their content is facts and what is conclusion.

You are absolutely right, which is why we've gone through 1950 car-by-car understanding exactly which car was at which race. The results data itself - laps completed, race times, speeds, etc - has received less attention as ORC's focus is on the cars themselves.

Allen

#93 Rob Ryder

Rob Ryder
  • Member

  • 2,333 posts
  • Joined: June 00

Posted 17 October 2007 - 08:11

Originally posted by Allen Brown
I must pick up on this. Rob can speak for himself but my understanding is that he constructed his data from Autocourse, Autosport, Motor Sport and so on before the Black Books were published. He then augmented his data using the Black Books as they appeared.
Allen

Hi Guys ;)

As Allen says, I used all sources available to me when compiling my (personal) database.
I wish Allen had started with the 1970s because this is 'my period' and I am pertty weak on the 1950s and 1960s :blush:

Originally..
Motorsport Magazine 1961 onwards
Autocourse 1968 onwards
Automobile Year 1967 onwards
Autosport (odd issues from the 1970s etc)
plus many other biographies, autobiographies and marque books.

Later..
I aquired the Black Books for 1950 onwards and used these to fill in the gaps/check data.
Joined TNF and searched the internet.

You will see that Sheldon is my only major source prior to 1961 (except for the internet), so many of the errors/omissions are from there. I have tried to continually update the information as it became available, but it is an ongoing task.

Rob

#94 uechtel

uechtel
  • Member

  • 1,782 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 17 October 2007 - 11:48

Originally posted by Rob Ryder

Hi Guys ;)

As Allen says, I used all sources available to me when compiling my (personal) database.
I wish Allen had started with the 1970s because this is 'my period' and I am pertty weak on the 1950s and 1960s :blush:

You will see that Sheldon is my only major source prior to 1961 (except for the internet), so many of the errors/omissions are from there. I have tried to continually update the information as it became available, but it is an ongoing task.

Rob


Originally posted by Allen Brown
In the case of 1950, where original sources are harder to obtain, a substantial part of his data may well have come from the Black Books.That may be true of the many "cut-and-paste" websites recycling F1 data but please bear in mind that ORC has published F1 data from 1966 to 1985


With my remark I never referred to anything else than your 1950 season overview neither was it meant as any bad criticism for your approach. In fact your website is always one of my first address when I look for some information about cars from the seventies.

And I fully agree, for a compilation like this I think Sheldon is the best point to start. All I wanted to say is that because so many others made the same approach there is danger, that any of Sheldon´s inaccuracies gets "common konwledge" simply because they live on in so many other compilations. And this danger is of course the greater the more obscure a particular bit of information is, especially as Sheldon does not make a difference between "hard facts" and his (necessary) assumptions. To me this "Ecurie Espadon" case is a good example. We still don´t know how Sheldon has come to this. Was it pure "extrapolation" from Fischer´s 1951 entries backwards (as I assume) or did he have some concrete information which we don´t have? How to cross-check his assumptions on something when we don´t have original sources?

; F5000; Can-Am; Formula Atlantic and now F2 all from original sources: magazines, organisers' results sheets, programs, annuals, newspaper reports etc. You are absolutely right, which is why we've gone through 1950 car-by-car understanding exactly which car was at which race. The results data itself - laps completed, race times, speeds, etc - has received less attention as ORC's focus is on the cars themselves.


Like you I am more interested in the cars itself than in the results, so I follow all this with great interest. Keep on with the good work...

Markus

#95 ReWind

ReWind
  • Member

  • 2,745 posts
  • Joined: October 03

Posted 17 October 2007 - 12:20

Originally posted by Allen Brown
The results data itself - laps completed, race times, speeds, etc - has received less attention as ORC's focus is on the cars themselves.

This should be another argument to follow my suggestion to put the cars first (instead of the drivers).

Looking at the results of the 1950 Italien Grand Prix among the retirements I found this:
R  Juan Manuel Fangio  Alfa Romeo 158 – Alfa Romeo s/c S8

					   #54 Alfa Romeo SpA						 34 Shared drive Engine

R  Pierre „Levegh“	 Talbot-Lago T26C [110005] – Talbot-Lago 6

					   #56 P „Levegh“							 29

R  Piero Taruffi	   Alfa Romeo 158 – Alfa Romeo s/c S8

					   #54 Alfa Romeo SpA						 25 Shared drive – Car to Fangio

R  Juan Manuel Fangio  Alfa Romeo 159 – Alfa Romeo s/c S8

					   #18 Alfa Romeo SpA						 23 Gearbox
First impression is: 4 retirements means 4 cars.

In fact there are only 3 cars that retired which is clear at first glance if presented like this:
R  Alfa Romeo 158 – Alfa Romeo s/c S8		 #54 Piero Taruffi	   25

	Alfa Romeo SpA								Juan Manuel Fangio  [u] 9[/u] shared drive

																	  34 Engine

R  Talbot-Lago T26C [110005] – Talbot-Lago 6  #56 Pierre „Levegh“	 29

	P „Levegh“

R  Alfa Romeo 159 – Alfa Romeo s/c S8		 #18 Juan Manuel Fangio  23 Gearbox

	Alfa Romeo SpA


#96 Allen Brown

Allen Brown
  • Member

  • 5,291 posts
  • Joined: December 00

Posted 17 October 2007 - 15:47

Markus, thanks for your comments. Sorry if I came across as a bit tetchy. I really shouldn't post before I have my second cup of coffee of the morning.

Reinhard, your suggestion is a good one and I intend to experiment with it to see if works across the other sorts of racing on the site. In the meantime, I intend to go through the shared drives cleaning them up.

#97 ReWind

ReWind
  • Member

  • 2,745 posts
  • Joined: October 03

Posted 17 October 2007 - 18:10

From Pino Allievi's book "Conoscere la Formula 1" vol.1 (p.38/39) I have this photo from the Italian GP:
Posted Image
©unknown

Unfortunately the cars were coloured to show their origins.

But you can see a car on row 7 of the grid on what has to be starting position 28 with 27th place left free (as is Bonetto's 23rd place).

This suggests 28 cars posted practice times (instead of the 27 we know of).

Also, to me it seems the last car is the Biondetti Special which one would expect in 25th place.

Maybe some TNF member from Italy has this photo in an untarnished version?

#98 starlet

starlet
  • Member

  • 327 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 17 October 2007 - 18:42

Not from an italian member, unfortunately ...

Posted Image

#99 GIGLEUX

GIGLEUX
  • Member

  • 1,519 posts
  • Joined: April 03

Posted 19 October 2007 - 13:52

Official programmes from England, Germany, Italy and Switzerland are always interesting as they provide quite a lot of information like entrant, driver, car and sometimes colour of the car; not the case with french programmes alas.

1950 Richmond Trophy, from official programme.
-n°20 Baron E.de Graffenried, entered by himself and not E.Platé
-n°22 R.Parnell, entrant R.Parnell and not Scuderia Ambrosiana, colour of the car: green
-n°23 D.Hampshire, entrant R.Parnell and not Scuderia Ambrosiana, colour of the car: green
This interesting to note. In the GP d'Europe D.Murray (as Parnell was incorporated to the Alfa-Roméo team) and D.Hampshire were entered under the Scuderia Ambrosiana name, colour of the cars: red. At Monaco too, Scuderia Ambrosiana for Parnell and Hampshire. In 1950 there was a clash (or a row if you prefer) between Parnell and the Ambrosiana, about the car of H.L.Brooke (Maserati 4CLT-1595) which was sent in Italy for an overhaul and retained there, it was said, by italian customs. The entries had certainly be sent early for these two races in the name of Scuderia Ambrosiana and this before the row occured. For the Swiss GP, Parnell DNA but he was allocated n°36 with no name for the entrant and no name for the nationality of it.
Return to the Richmond Trophy:
-n°30 A.Rolt, entrant R.R.C.Walker, car: Delage, colour: beige. You give for châssis number: GP.5. It is a relatively recent numerotation to distinguish the 15-S-8 Delages. Four of them were produced in 1926-1927 and two more chassis were ordered to Delage by Prince Chula in 1937 for Bira. These two cars were fitted with new chassis and independant front suspension. Parnell bought the cars from Chula. GP.5 then was raced by Habershon who sell it to R.R.C.Walker. The real chassis number is WMG 101. WMG for White Mouse Garage.
-n°5 G.Abecassis entered by J.Heath and not by H.W.Motors.

Advertisement

#100 uechtel

uechtel
  • Member

  • 1,782 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 19 October 2007 - 14:20

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
-n°30 A.Rolt, entrant R.R.C.Walker, car: Delage, colour: beige. You give for châssis number: GP.5. It is a relatively recent numerotation to distinguish the 15-S-8 Delages. Four of them were produced in 1926-1927 and two more chassis were ordered to Delage by Prince Chula in 1937 for Bira. These two cars were fitted with new chassis and independant front suspension. Parnell bought the cars from Chula. GP.5 then was raced by Habershon who sell it to R.R.C.Walker. The real chassis number is WMG 101. WMG for White Mouse Garage.


So was this the Seaman / Chula car? If so the car had sustained so many changes so like for Plate´s Talbots to me it is the question whether the name "Delage" is still correct or whether it did have already changed its identity into some kind of special?