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The 1950 Formula 1 season


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#101 Hugo Boecker

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 14:56

Originally posted by GIGLEUX

-n°5 G.Abecassis entered by J.Heath and not by H.W.Motors.


But is there anydiffernce besides the name if the entrant is the owner of the garage like Heath and H.W.Motors. Is Heath only a shortform.
The difference between Ambrosiana - Parnell or Plate - Graffenried is clear. But in case of Heath I don't know.

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#102 Allen Brown

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 14:58

In the next update, we have revised histories for the two Delages that we still running in 1950, based on the detailed research that Alan Burnard did into these six cars. The car that Alan originally numbered '5' turned out to be the second Chula car (theoretically WMG102) and the car he numbered '6' turned out to be WMG101. Because of that, we're abandoning Alan's '5' and '6' notation and using the numbers WMG101 and WMG102 instead.

These two cars were effectively 1937 cars as they were nearly all new at that point. They were then rebuilt again after the war.

Allen

#103 Allen Brown

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 15:04

Originally posted by Hugo Boecker


But is there anydiffernce besides the name if the entrant is the owner of the garage like Heath and H.W.Motors. Is Heath only a shortform.
The difference between Ambrosiana - Parnell or Plate - Graffenried is clear. But in case of Heath I don't know.

This is a continual issue with entrants - who the entrant really was versus what they wrote on the entry form. So Elf Tyrrell or Team Tyrrell? Sugaripe Prune or Jerry O'Connell? Heath or HW Motors? On the Indy cars, I adopted the policy of putting the real entrant in square brackets - so "Sugaripe Prune [Jerry O'Connell]". So I think here it would be "J Heath [HW Motors]".

Allen

#104 uechtel

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 15:27

I think this would make everybody content.

And then I see I have a lack of knowledge about these Delages. Always thought Bira´s Delage was one of the original GP cars of 1927 improved by Ramponi redesigned by Lory...

So did they actually bulild new chassis of that design at the Delage works in the late thirties? :eek:

#105 GIGLEUX

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 16:23

Originally posted by Hugo Boecker


But is there anydiffernce besides the name if the entrant is the owner of the garage like Heath and H.W.Motors. Is Heath only a shortform.
The difference between Ambrosiana - Parnell or Plate - Graffenried is clear. But in case of Heath I don't know.


Hugo: on the morning of the Swiss GP, there was a F2 race with three HWM, all entered (official programme) by:
John Heath, Walton-on Thames. The same for the Grand Prix de Genève which occured prior the Grand Prix des Nations.
In 1951 only, (and after) the HWMs were entered by H.W.Motors Ltd

#106 Allen Brown

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 16:23

Chula ordered replacement chassis for the car he'd bought (plus a spare chassis) and Delage built two for him to an upgraded spec. Bira didn't like the car and stuck to his ERAs. Those new chassis were WMG101 and WMG102, one of which later became Rowley's car and other became the ERA-Delage. The parts of all Chula's four cars became significantly mixed up during this process but Alan Burnard did a pretty solid job of figuring it all out.

#107 David McKinney

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 16:30

I don't want to get into an argument about this - especially as I have several Alan Bunard articles and am too lazy (let's make that too busy) to check - but surely the 1937 WMG chassis were sufficiently different from the 1926/27 design for the term 'replacement' to be rather misleading?

#108 Allen Brown

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Posted 19 October 2007 - 16:40

I share your laziness at this particular moment. I'm supposed to be building a website for a high-street bank!

I think it is true to say that Chula ordered replacements. However, what he received was quite significantly improved machinery such that 'replacement' is indeed a misleading term. I get the impression that Delage went to town somewhat on his order and WMG101 can be regarded as virtually a whole new car while the spare chassis that we're calling WMG102 later formed the basis of a second car to that spec. Fortunately, there was enough left over for the donor 1926/27 cars to survive as distinct entities.

Allen

#109 Allen Brown

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Posted 21 October 2007 - 18:52

Originally posted by D-Type
Daily Express International Trophy – Heat 2 results are missing?

Duncan

You do mean this race don't you? The Heat 2 results are right next to the Heat 1 results. :confused:

Allen

#110 D-Type

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Posted 21 October 2007 - 19:40

:o Sorry - I didn't think to look alongside - I saw that Heat 1 results were there, looked underneath forheat 2 and ....

sorry if I have had you searching for a non-existent error

#111 Allen Brown

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Posted 21 October 2007 - 19:42

Originally posted by D-Type
sorry if I have had you searching for a non-existent error

Only very briefly indeed. And you've told me that the layout of the results can be confusing, which is useful to know. I'll add that to my list of things to fix.

Allen

#112 Allen Brown

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Posted 23 October 2007 - 16:31

A third 'edition' of 1950 now available

The main changes are:

* Footnote histories of the BRM V16
* Footnote histories of all the Gordinis
* Footnote histories of some of the prewar Maseratis
* Footnote histories of the Delage D6s
* Footnote histories of the prewar Delage 15S8s
* Footnote history of the RRA
* A rethink on the Biondetti Ferrari-Jaguar thing
* Revised histories of cars such as the CDL and the Platé-Talbot thing
* More work on the Maserati identities based on yet more photogaphs
* uechtel's changes to the Goodwood results (from the F1R addenda)
* Numerous other minor changes

As before, the bulk of the new knowledge has come from Adam Ferrington and David McKinney.

Things I still have to do:
* Sort out shared drives
* Jean-Maurice's entry list changes from post 99
* Sorting out the artificial 'not classified' results in some F1R race results

Also, a first 'edition' of 1951 now available

All input is most welcome.

Allen

#113 Hugo Boecker

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Posted 23 October 2007 - 18:42

For 1951and 52 there were two Belgian Talbot teams.
Ecurie Belge with Jonny Claes and the Ecurie Belgique (or Francorchamps) raced a Talbot (110006) for Swaters, Laurent, Pilette and de Tornaco.

#114 David McKinney

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Posted 23 October 2007 - 18:48

Does the oldracing cars site say otherwise?

#115 Hugo Boecker

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Posted 23 October 2007 - 20:38

In the remarks for the Richmond Trophy they say that Claes and Pilette started for Ecurie Belgique in 52. Pilette started for Claes' Ecurie Belge at Albi while the Swaters outfit was Ecurie Belgiquie. My first thought was that Pilette started for Ec.Belgique in Albi as well as he did in 1951 races. But ORC is right saying Claes and Pilette were in the same team.

#116 David McKinney

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Posted 23 October 2007 - 21:57

Thanks for the clarification, Hugo
I only checked one 1951 race before my post, and the info in that was correct

#117 GIGLEUX

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Posted 23 October 2007 - 22:12

I'm just at the beginning of my remarks about the 1950 season, and there is quite a lot! About 1951, and for the moment, only one: Italian GP Tcar n)12 Chico Landi. The car was painted in brazilian colours, green and yellow as at first it was to be driven by Landi in the race. In fact nearly all the drivers of Scuderia turned with it during practice and Landi at last, prefered to buy a 375 with which he raced. About the T car it was not a 500-2000cc but it still had the 2500cc engine used precedently at Bari!

#118 uechtel

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Posted 23 October 2007 - 22:34

My first remark points of course to the one thing that is the main interest for me, Peter Hirt´s Veritas Meteor in the Swiss GP. This may have been chassis number '4202', as this is the number of the red and white car that was restored by Bruno Kühnis and of which it is reported, that it is the former car of Hirt and also the only car of the Ecurie Suisse, that is known to have survived (source: Brochure "50 Jahre Nachkriegsrennsport", documentation for the Veritas meeting at Meßkirch in 1997). But this does of course not exclude the possibility, that perhaps there may have also been some chassis-swapping of over the years.

#119 Allen Brown

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Posted 24 October 2007 - 10:51

Originally posted by GIGLEUX
I'm just at the beginning of my remarks about the 1950 season, and there is quite a lot! About 1951, and for the moment, only one: Italian GP Tcar n)12 Chico Landi. The car was painted in brazilian colours, green and yellow as at first it was to be driven by Landi in the race. In fact nearly all the drivers of Scuderia turned with it during practice and Landi at last, prefered to buy a 375 with which he raced. About the T car it was not a 500-2000cc but it still had the 2500cc engine used precedently at Bari!

Thanks Jean-Maurice. This correction will be in the next 'edition'.

Allen

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#120 Allen Brown

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Posted 24 October 2007 - 10:54

Originally posted by uechtel
My first remark points of course to the one thing that is the main interest for me, Peter Hirt´s Veritas Meteor in the Swiss GP. This may have been chassis number '4202', as this is the number of the red and white car that was restored by Bruno Kühnis and of which it is reported, that it is the former car of Hirt and also the only car of the Ecurie Suisse, that is known to have survived (source: Brochure "50 Jahre Nachkriegsrennsport", documentation for the Veritas meeting at Meßkirch in 1997). But this does of course not exclude the possibility, that perhaps there may have also been some chassis-swapping of over the years.

Would this be the car you have numbered '3' in your excellent marque history on 8W?

Allen

#121 uechtel

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Posted 24 October 2007 - 11:37

Oh, this old thing...

Yes, it would be that car. But Hirt was the one from Ecurie Suisse, who remained the longest time with Veritas and it is not finally clear, what happened to all the other cars. At least two of them seem to have been exported to Belgium, so while there is no need to assume, that Hirt changed to another car, it also can not be absolutely excluded. Anyway, if there had been indeed a change I would strongly assume, that this had happened before the 1951 season.

#122 fw07c

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 14:35

Hi Allen
Whilst in 3rd Edition of 1950 season you have changed the description of Biondetti's car in Italian GP to Ferrari Jaguar. it remains unknown in 1950 Pescara GP along with Aldolfo Schwelm' car. Was it the same car as at the Italian GP? And is there any idea what was Aldolfo Schwelm's car?

Cheers

#123 Allen Brown

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 16:43

That's a good question. I was under the impression that both Biondetti and Aldolfo Schwelm drove standard XK120s at Pescara and that Biondetti's special raced for the first time at Monza.

I know who could answer this but my main PC broke down yesterday and I don't have access to his email just at the moment. He's been very helpful recently with some additional details on the older Maseratis. If he's reading this, could he email me again please? If not, my PC should be fixed by Monday or Tuesday and I'll ask him then.

Allen

#124 Allen Brown

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 19:07

The experts have put their heads together. (I'm just a glove puppet really you know :) )

Evidence on which car Bondetti drove at Pescara is thin but Andrea Curami's book says it was the Ferrari-Jaguar, not the XK120 (JWK 650) that he'd raced earlier in the season. So I need to correct that.

Aldolfo Schwelm's car was a normal XK120. The reason '(unknown)' appears in front of it is because I don't know what formula or category it would have been running in that day. A 3.4-litre sports car in a F1 race?!? I guess it was running to F1 regs that day.

Allen

#125 GIGLEUX

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 20:46

No problem, Allen, it was a F1 race, but the rules were not so strict as they are now. It was only in 1961 that streamlined cars were forbidden. So, mainly in F2 races you found sports racing cars like the Ferrari 166 Inter (SC), the Veritas or AFM. In 1950 you found Talbots T26GS without sports cars trims. A Jaguar XK120 is a GT car of course, but it had an u/s engine of 3.4 liters, so not over 4.5 liters and a streamlined body! In 1952, for example, Claes raced a racing sports Gordini in the Belgian GP, and it was a WC event.. Return to Pescara: Auto Italiana named the cars of Biondetti and Schwelm Jaguars. It seems that Biondetti had serious problems: on a flying kilometer Fangio was at 310,344 km/h, Schwelm 214,285 km/h and Biondetti 139,534 km/h.

#126 GIGLEUX

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Posted 27 October 2007 - 21:19

Allen about the Talbots of Gigi Platé, may this can help.
From official programme of the Dunlop Jubilee which occured at Brooklands Sept 24th 1938. It consisted of 10 short races 9 on handicap and the tenth on scratch.
Gigi Platé took an entry (though I doubt he went):
-race n°9 The fourth Dunlop Road handicap: n°6 entrant Gigi Platé; Car Talbot Platé; Supercharged 8 cyl 56*74 1495 cc; driver: entrant. Colour of car and wheels not indicated. He was to stat 14 sec before the scratchman, Earl Howe, ERA.
-race n°10 scratch race. Platé had n°19 and the car was named Talbot-Platé with an hyphen !

#127 fw07c

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Posted 04 November 2007 - 10:43

Jean
Whilst you were investigating the entrants and drivers for the 1950 Monaco Grand Prix did you find any of the driver's practice times?.In particular I would like to know what was Alfredo Pian's time, in the first session before he crashed, as according to various sources his was 18th on the grid. This means his time was some where between 2 m 4.5 sec and 2m 12.0 sec or does it?.

Many Thanks

#128 GIGLEUX

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Posted 04 November 2007 - 11:54

First session times:

Fangio 1.50.2
Farina 1.52.8
Gonzalez 1.53.7
Etancelin 1.54.1
Fagioli 1.54.2
Pian 1.56.6
Sommer 1.56.6
Chiron 1.59.0
Rosier 1.59.5
Harrison 2.01.6
Gerard 2.03.4
Whitehead 2.05.4
Roll no time as he only did some laps at reduced speed.

Note that as the AC of Monaco wanted to have a maximum of drivers for the first session, it was that one which was to determine the two first rows of the starting grid.

#129 fw07c

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Posted 04 November 2007 - 12:27

Jean
You are a STAR!!!! great stuff.

Merci

#130 GIGLEUX

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Posted 05 November 2007 - 15:37

About the starting grid of the 1950 GP de Monaco, there is still a little mystery with the 7th row. This would have had three cars but all the sources are in contradiction. In fact the third car on this row would have been the Ferrari of Whitehead, but he didn't practice the second day (engine matters) and didn't started.
-The Motor 24th of May 1950: Gerard and Rol
-The Autocar 26th of May 1950: Gerard Rol and Claes
-Automobil Revue (Swiss) 25th of May 1950: Gerard Rol and Claes
Now what was published some years later:
-The Monaco GP D.Hodges: Gerard Rol
-Autosprint annual 1976: Gerard Rol
-Autosprint 1980-81: Gerard Rol
-25 Anni di Formula Uno Casucci-Tommasi: Gerard Rol Claes
-Grand Prix Vol.1 Mike Lang Gerard Rol
-Grand Prix de Monaco (four volumes) Gerard Rol Claes
-1950 JP Delsaux Gerard Rol

Does somebody have or know a picture of the 1950 GP de Monaco starting grid showing clearly the last rows?

#131 ERault

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Posted 11 November 2007 - 20:48

Hi Allen (and all)

I just starded reading your great work. Well, i am down to the 1950 Richmond Trophy... I have a couple of questions :

1) 1542, the 6CM of Murray, is given by the usual source as Cortese's car in 1937. Any idea when and how it ended up in the UK ?

2) I am confused with Bira's 4CLT/48. He owned 1598 in 1948 and is said to used 1607 in 1950. I assumed 1598 was the one which was "gifted" with the OSCA V12. The Official Australia GP book says the same about Alf Harvey entry in the 1958 GP. You seem to think it was 1607. In that case, what became of 1598 ? And what is the second F2 Maserati Platé ?

#132 Adam F

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 00:13

ERault,

6CM 1542 passed via Scuderia Torino (raced by Ghersi) to the Swiss Ecurie Auto-Sport team who ran it briefly in 1946 for de Graffenried and Balsa. In 1947 it was imported into the UK and raced by Sam Gilbey for two seasons (1947 and 48) before he sold it to Colin Murray.

Regarding the identity of the 4CLT chassis to which the OSCA engine was fitted for Bira, many pepole have assumed that the chassis used was Bira's own car 1598,. However recent evidence points to a later chassis (1607) being used for the OSCA, with 1598 becoming Plate's second car for 1951, and eventually one of the two Plate-Maseratis.

I hope that answers your questions.

#133 uechtel

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 11:52

So there is a discrepancy in the 1951 stats:

Richmond Trophy, San Remo: Bira - Maserati-OSCA #1607
Syracuse, Pau, San Remo: Schell - Maserati-Maserati #1607

If I understand right then Schell´s car should have been #1598. Or were there two #1607? (after all it is Maserati...)

#134 Allen Brown

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 12:03

Originally posted by uechtel
So there is a discrepancy in the 1951 stats:

Richmond Trophy, San Remo: Bira - Maserati-OSCA #1607
Syracuse, Pau, San Remo: Schell - Maserati-Maserati #1607

If I understand right then Schell´s car should have been #1598. Or were there two #1607? (after all it is Maserati...)

Argh! You are quite right - Schell appears in 1607 through 1951 instead of 1598. It looks like I was half way through swapping round 1598 and 1607 and got distracted. That happens. I have two small children (and like to blame them for as much as I can!)

#135 uechtel

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 12:16

Swiss GP 1951. Again, in the Addenda Sheldon has the following updates:
"Delete BRM entries; Delete Simon Gordini; #34 Bira (Ecurie Royale Siam) OSCA; #36 Branca Maserati; #50 Staechelin (Ecurie Espadon) Ferrari"

#136 uechtel

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 12:20

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Argh! You are quite right - Schell appears in 1607 through 1951 instead of 1598. It looks like I was half way through swapping round 1598 and 1607 and got distracted. That happens. I have two small children (and like to blame them for as much as I can!)


Thought you were testing the readers... :cat:

#137 uechtel

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 12:44

Pescara: Mairesse in the Ecurie Belgique car? The rest of the season you have him in Giraud-Cabantous´ car.

#138 uechtel

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 12:47

Bari:
Again from Sheldon´s addenda he gives the engine of Taruffi´s car as model "640/F1", indicating a capacity of about 2560 cc!

#139 GIGLEUX

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 12:49

Originally posted by uechtel
Pescara: Mairesse in the Ecurie Belgique car? The rest of the season you have him in Giraud-Cabantous´ car.


And in fact he was with T26C-110002, his own car. G.Cab had 110009, the ex-Trillaud then Sommer car.

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#140 uechtel

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 12:52

And for the Italian GP: "#12 Landi - car: Ferrari 640; delete footnote"

#141 uechtel

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 12:58

Spanish GP: "Delete BRM entries and Branca; #40 Landi; #42 Jover"

#142 uechtel

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 12:59

Originally posted by GIGLEUX


And in fact he was with T26C-110002, his own car. G.Cab had 110009, the ex-Trillaud then Sommer car.


Yes, but Allen has him always entered by Giraud-Cabantous?

#143 GIGLEUX

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 13:16

Originally posted by uechtel


Yes, but Allen has him always entered by Giraud-Cabantous?


The story is that Mairesse and G.Cab associated. Mairesse was too occupied with his transport business and delegated to G.Cab all the administrative job. So G.Cab had the task to take the entries, assumed the transport and maintenance of the cars.

#144 GIGLEUX

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 13:34

Originally posted by uechtel
Swiss GP 1951. Again, in the Addenda Sheldon has the following updates:
"Delete BRM entries; Delete Simon Gordini; #34 Bira (Ecurie Royale Siam) OSCA; #36 Branca Maserati; #50 Staechelin (Ecurie Espadon) Ferrari"


From official programme:
-34 Ecurie Royale Siam, (Mandelieu, Alpes Maritimes); "B.Bira"; Osca 4500
-36 Branca Toni, Sierre; Branca Toni; Maserati 1500
-50 Ecurie Espadon, Zürich; Staechelin Peter; Ferrari 2000; reserve entry
-52 Ecurie Suisse, Zürich; Hirt Peter; Veritas-Meteor 2000; reserve entry.

No entries for BRM and Simon.

#145 ERault

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 19:33

Thanks Adam for the reply.

First, the easy stuff : At Pau 1950, the Gordini were not supercharged, they ran as F2. Christian Huet don't give chassis number for this race but states the engines gave around 86 hp @ 5500 rpm.

Now San Remo 1950. I must say I am confused, again. This time with the Maserati Milan of Bonetto. Are you sure it was 1610 ?

This car was Taruffi's and as far as I know he raced it in the Temporada races early 1950, as a standard 4CLT/48. Scuderia Milan, on the other hand, raced two modified 4CLT/48 at the 1949 Italian GP (chassis given as 1594 and 1602 by Felix Muelas in his article on 8W). Bonetto had one of these cars at the Temporada. It would seems logical that Bonetto again used one of these at San Remo rather than Taruffi's 1610, that wasn't "Milanised".

As an aside, that would "liberate" 1610 which might be a candidate for the third Scuderia Varzi car as Taruffi could have come with such a deal while in Argentina earlier in the season.

Another trail : Orsini / Zagari states that at San Remo Pian and Gonzales used the new 4CLT/50 chassis 1611 and 1612. Is it possible they were lent by the works to Scuderia Varzi before being delivred to Scuderia Milan ?

#146 Allen Brown

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 09:06

Thanks for all these comments everyone. We're looking again at the whole 1610/1611/1612 Maserati Milan business again to see how solid that looks. I defer to the Maserati experts on issues like this.

I will also make the 1951 Swiss GP entry list corrections, fix those Gordinis and work through the other changes uechtel has raised.

I am grateful for everyone quoting their sources. I'm looking at the Ferrari 375s at the moment and the degree to which published sources differ from each other has surprised me. If anyone has done their own study of the 375s and would like to help out, please let me know.

Allen

#147 David McKinney

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 13:31

Originally posted by Allen Brown
If anyone has done their own study of the 375s and would like to help out, please let me know.

To save duplication of effort...
I have already volunteered data from Motor Sport, Autocourse, the annual Racing Car Review books and Stanley Nowak's independent research, while Allen already has data from the Tanner/Nye Ferrari book (6th edition) and of course the relevant F1R Black Book

#148 Allen Brown

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 17:17

Originally posted by David McKinney

To save duplication of effort...
I have already volunteered data from Motor Sport, Autocourse, the annual Racing Car Review books and Stanley Nowak's independent research, while Allen already has data from the Tanner/Nye Ferrari book (6th edition) and of course the relevant F1R Black Book

And, thanks to Marc, I have data from the Rancati book on the 375s.

#149 ERault

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 19:03

Bordeaux Grand Prix 1951 : I have a note stating that Chiron's HMW had a 2500 cc engine for this race. As I don't remember where I read it in the first place, I don't know how reliable that is. Maybe someone could double-check this one.

#150 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 19:24

Originally posted by David McKinney

To save duplication of effort...


Allen, David, et al

This is exciting stuff!

Darren Galpin and Quintin Cloud have already provided tremendous resources in this area:

http://www.silhouet....e/f1/title.html

http://members.fortu.../quintin_cloud/

Are you collaborating with them? Are they involved in what you are doing?

Vince Howlett, Victoria, B.C., Canada