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The 1950 Formula 1 season


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#151 David McKinney

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 19:58

Originally posted by ERault
Bordeaux Grand Prix 1951 : I have a note stating that Chiron's HMW had a 2500 cc engine for this race. As I don't remember where I read it in the first place, I don't know how reliable that is. Maybe someone could double-check this one.

No need to double-check - there wouldn't be a 2.5 engine available for an HWM for several years

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#152 Allen Brown

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Posted 16 November 2007 - 20:13

Originally posted by raceannouncer2003
Darren Galpin and Quintin Cloud have already provided tremendous resources in this area:

Are you collaborating with them? Are they involved in what you are doing?

Vince

Those sites are what we would regard as secondary sources and we're trying to work from primary sources where we can. We have used the Black Books as the bedrock of our research and I suspect that is the same foundation as Darren's and Quentin's sites. We have then worked out from there using marque histories (e.g. ERA, Talbot and Gordini) and are then trying to take the whole subject forward by referring to photographs to identify individual Maseratis, HWMs and, thanks to Michael, Ferrari 125s. Ferrari 375s are next. One da, maybe, even Alfettas.

Allen

#153 ERault

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Posted 19 November 2007 - 20:55

Ok, this time it is less of a long shot than my 2.5 Alta engine dream.

1951 GP de Paris : again according to Huet, Aldo Gordini and Trintignant had Type 16 engines (1500 atmo), as opposed to the Type 15C (1500 supercharged) of Simon, Fangio and Manzon.

1951 Albi : Behra's Gordini was not supercharged (type 16 engine).

#154 ERault

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Posted 20 November 2007 - 20:30

1951 Italia GP
From Gerard Crombac's "Les années Fangio", roughly translated : "Trintignant, ill from food poisoning, let his car to Behra, who was about to run his first world championship grand prix. Gordini did not let the organizers know (his starting money would have been cut down) so all sources quoted Trintignant as the driver".

And what about Chico Landi in this race ? The 500 F2 Ferrari he tried in practice was a DNS, but I thought his 375 F1 managed to take the start before retiring. Did not the "too slow" reason apply to the 500 F2 rather than the 375 F1 ? The latter was after all 16 of 23 in practice (not to mention that the car was said to be the one that won the British Grand Prix...).

#155 Allen Brown

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Posted 20 November 2007 - 21:16

Originally posted by ERault
Ok, this time it is less of a long shot than my 2.5 Alta engine dream.

1951 GP de Paris : again according to Huet, Aldo Gordini and Trintignant had Type 16 engines (1500 atmo), as opposed to the Type 15C (1500 supercharged) of Simon, Fangio and Manzon.

1951 Albi : Behra's Gordini was not supercharged (type 16 engine).

Thanks for this. David has re-checked all the 1950-51 Gordini entries against both Gordini books and this will all be updated for the next 'edition', including your changes above.

#156 Allen Brown

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Posted 20 November 2007 - 21:33

Originally posted by ERault
1951 Italia GP
From Gerard Crombac's "Les années Fangio", roughly translated : "Trintignant, ill from food poisoning, let his car to Behra, who was about to run his first world championship grand prix. Gordini did not let the organizers know (his starting money would have been cut down) so all sources quoted Trintignant as the driver".

Fascinating!

Originally posted by ERault
1951 Italia GP
...
And what about Chico Landi in this race ? The 500 F2 Ferrari he tried in practice was a DNS, but I thought his 375 F1 managed to take the start before retiring. Did not the "too slow" reason apply to the 500 F2 rather than the 375 F1 ? The latter was after all 16 of 23 in practice (not to mention that the car was said to be the one that won the British Grand Prix...).

Doug has a photograph that shows Landi's car to be the muletto that Gonzales used to win the British GP and then Ascari used for the German GP. I'm still trying to get my head around the 375s but as far as I can tell, this car was '1950 No 2', apparantly a different car to '1951 No 2' and also different to a high-tail car that may have been called '1952 No 2' at the 1951 Italian GP. The numbering Ferrari used is somewhat opaque and contemporary reports don't make it clear whether they are talking about a new 1951 car or just a car with a 1951 engine (i.e. a 24-plug engine). So I'm unsure whether the two 'new cars' at Spa (chassis 3 and 4 according to Autocourse) are the third and fourth 375s in total or the third and fourth 375s built new for 1951. With the 375-like 340 still in the mix somewhere, it's not easy to figure out. What I really need is a couple of hundred 375 pictures to compare.

I don't know whether Landi started in the 375. Tanner Vol 6 implies he did, Sheldon says he didn't. Maybe someone can help us sort that out.

Allen

#157 GIGLEUX

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Posted 20 November 2007 - 21:48

Originally posted by ERault
1951 Italia GP
And what about Chico Landi in this race ? The 500 F2 Ferrari he tried in practice was a DNS, but I thought his 375 F1 managed to take the start before retiring. Did not the "too slow" reason apply to the 500 F2 rather than the 375 F1 ? The latter was after all 16 of 23 in practice (not to mention that the car was said to be the one that won the British Grand Prix...).


The car had a 2500-4 engine, so a 625 and not a 500. It was first entered for Landi who practiced with it, in fact nearly all the drivers of the Scuderia tried the car. Ferrari wanted to sell this car to Landi who changed his mind and prefered a 375. Not only it wa

#158 GIGLEUX

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Posted 20 November 2007 - 21:49

it was said it was the British GP winning car, but in fact it was (and also the German GP winner): 375/1

#159 Allen Brown

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Posted 20 November 2007 - 22:27

Why are you so sure it was 375-1 and not 375-2?

The 375 that Landi then bought was one of the late-1951 high-tail cars wasn't it?

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#160 GIGLEUX

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Posted 20 November 2007 - 23:04

What is sure is that at the Italian GP, Landi drove the car used by Gonzalez at the British GP and by Ascari for the German GP. I made a miwriting with 375/1, in fact it was 375/2 (given as such by DSJ in Motorsport report of the British GP), a 1950 car, 12 plugs with De Dion rear axle.

#161 GIGLEUX

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Posted 21 November 2007 - 00:35

Originally posted by ERault
1951 Italia GP
From Gerard Crombac's "Les années Fangio", roughly translated : "Trintignant, ill from food poisoning, let his car to Behra, who was about to run his first world championship grand prix. Gordini did not let the organizers know (his starting money would have been cut down) so all sources quoted Trintignant as the driver".


From Trintignant's Booknotes; I have it (never published) "race n°93 1951 GP d'Italie, Monza 16 septembre. Simca 1500 supercharged F1. Retired. Burst a tyre and after that broke the engine (rods through the crankcase).".

It seems to me it is a first hand information!

#162 ERault

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Posted 22 November 2007 - 19:46

Well, it's difficult to argue with that (unless Trintignant was like my boss who sometimes write meeting reports before the meeting actualy took place...). But how did Crombac got this story ?

#163 GIGLEUX

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Posted 22 November 2007 - 22:31

I think that Crombac found this story in the book of Christian Huet: Gordini, un sorcier, une équipe.

#164 ERault

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Posted 22 November 2007 - 22:38

I was guessing the other way around. Huet for sure was not there at Monza in 1951, but Crombac might have been. Anyway, strange story. (and what does it say in Behra's diary ?) :p

#165 Allen Brown

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Posted 26 November 2007 - 12:12

Hello!

Sorry I've been quiet recently but Adam and David are helping me work through a huge list of suggested alterations to the results. The list runs to 77 items! I'm very grateful to everyone for their contributions and to those helping making sense of all the contradictions.

Bear with me.

Allen

PS. Anyone have a picture of Aldolfo Schwelm's Jaguar at the 1950 Pescara GP?

#166 ERault

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Posted 29 November 2007 - 20:07

Hi Allen,

Are you considering adding the early season races in South America ? As you know, even if it was not "proper" formula 1, several cars you cover in 1950 and 1951 did the trip. It would take a brave man but you certainly are and this forum has been quite helpful on this matter in the past.

#167 Allen Brown

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Posted 29 November 2007 - 20:28

Hi ERault

There's a fine line between brave and stupid - I'm not sure which I am.

David and Adam are also keen to do the South American races over the 1947-1953 period but we'll finish off F1 1950-1953 first, then go back to do Europe 1945-1949 and then branch out to do South America. We only have two or three items left to sort out on the 1950 and 1951 races and then we can move on to some new stuff.

I agree TNF has been very knowledgeable and helpful. And patient.

Allen

#168 Allen Brown

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Posted 01 December 2007 - 00:28

A big set of changes for 1950 and 1951.

The following list is as complete as possible but I may have missed a few things.

General
* Talbot-Lagos are now called Talbots
* All Gordini histories checked and revised
* removed all "not classified" that had been picked up from F1 Register
* revisions to several Maserati 4CLT histories
* corrected Bira's and Harry Schell's use of Maserati 4CLTs 1598 and 1607
* added major VSCC racers to ERA footnotes
* revisions to Maserati 6CM 1542 history
* revisions to Maserati 4CL 1582 history
* correct denomination of the 3L Delages was D6-3LS
* more information on Delage D6-3LS 880005
* it's François Jolly not Joly

1950
* Jean Estager's Talbot at 1950 GP de Paris was a 4.5-litre Talbot Speciale based on a T150C.
* British GP shared drives: have sorted out the laps completed of the ERAs.
* Additional details added to Richmond Trophy entrants
* additional information on the SVA
* Pescara GP 1950: Bondetti had the 'Ferrari-Jaguar'
* added more 1950 Monaco Grand Prix practice times
* Pau GP Gordinis were F2s
* San Remo entry list revisions

1951
* Swiss GP entry list revisions
* Swiss GP: Peter Hirt's Veritas Meteor was '3' or 4202
* all RH and RHH Parnell entries should be R Parnell
* Pescara GP: Guy Mairesse's entrant should be Giraud-Cabantous
* Paris GP: two Gordinis were F2s
* Italian GP: Chico Landi's practice car now called a 500/625
* Italian GP: Landi started in the 375
* Italian GP: Behra raced Trintignant's entry

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this update, especially David and Adam who have worked through every single change checking and cross-checking.

Items that will be included in the next update
* Complete check of all 1951 Ferrari entries
* Review of the way shared drives are displayed
* Addition of major 1950/51 libre races

Allen

#169 fw07c

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Posted 01 December 2007 - 18:10

Allan

As you can see from Jean Gigleux first session times for the 1950 Monaco GP

"First session times:

Fangio 1.50.2
Farina 1.52.8
Gonzalez 1.53.7
Etancelin 1.54.1
Fagioli 1.54.2
Pian 1.56.6
Sommer 1.56.6
Chiron 1.59.0
Rosier 1.59.5
Harrison 2.01.6
Gerard 2.03.4
Whitehead 2.05.4
Roll no time as he only did some laps at reduced speed."

that A Pian time was 1m 56.6 before he crashed. With this time you may be able it to add to your qualifying page.

cheers it is a great site

#170 Allen Brown

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Posted 01 December 2007 - 18:26

I was tempted to add these as a first column but I already had a set of times and as Jean-Maurice hadn't give the second (and third?) session times, they weren't easy to integrate. I did add Whitehead's time but missed Pian's. It will be in the next update.

Allen

#171 John Elmgreen

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 12:32

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Aldolfo Schwelm's car was a normal XK120. The reason '(unknown)' appears in front of it is because I don't know what formula or category it would have been running in that day. A 3.4-litre sports car in a F1 race?!? I guess it was running to F1 regs that day.

Allen

Allen, I am in the process of writing a book about the histories of Jaguar XK120s in some (mostly southern) parts of the world, and have come across an identification for the Schwelm car as an XK120 OTS lhd chassis 670273. Schwelm bought it new in the UK earlier in 1950, took it to Pescara to race, then by the end of 1950 had the car back home in Argentina where he raced it as well. What was his result at Pescara? Are there any pics you know of? regards, John Elmgreen (Sydney, Australia)

#172 Allen Brown

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 13:03

Thanks John. All I know is that he retired at Pescara. I haven't seen any pictures of his car.

Allen

#173 sramoa

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Posted 23 April 2009 - 14:06

Hungarian Grand Prix is Magyar Nagydíj