26 replies to this topic

[speedy]

As there have been many guessing the hp numbers of different F1 engines, I decided to share the info I noticed from this week's Finnish Veikkaaja magazine (betting magazine). Of course this is not any absolute truth, but still interesting. The measurements were done by an Italian engineer, Enrico Benzing with "a special computer program" whatever it stands for. Benetton/Arrows Supertec and Prost Peugeot could not be traced in a reliable manner. The numbers are Qualifying/Race.

1. Mercedes 832/817
2. Ferrari 814/810
3. Honda 812/805
4. Mugen-Honda 810/796
5. BMW 804/785
6. Ford-Cosworth 791/786
7. Petronas 783/780
8. Fondmetal 722/715

Interesting that Honda is almost at Ferrari level - It's a miracle that Minardis don't fall outside 107% rule

[Dougal]

Also interesting that the difference between Honda and Mugen-Honda is pretty minimal, certainly in qualifying

[arcwulf7]

BMW's power looks a little short. The Fondmetal is down 110hp from the McLaren!! ouch!. Or at least yah! for keeping within the 107% standard. Down 13% on power and usually within 3% of pole in qualifying. Gustav Brunner deserves equal billing with Adrian Newey for his work at Minardi. I'm sure Peugeot after its years of futility and frustration are thankful their hp figures cannot be reliably measured in their last year of f1.

[Nikolas Garth]

Schuey got pole with that kind of HP disadvantage, on a track like Monza???????

[baddog]

the hp difference from mclaren to ferrari sounds very suspect to me.. hard to really believe ms and rb are THAT quick

Shaun

[Yelnats]

Note the range of values supplied. This could put the McLaren at 817 HP and the Ferrari at 810, a more reasonable estimate I would guess. Particularly when you consider Rubens and Davids relative grid positions.

[baddog]

stanley, those figures arent a range, they are qualifying and race figures..

117/110 I would be happy to beleive

Shaun

[Oho]

Ave !!!!

Perhaps I am merely underlining my lack of intellect, but I just find it very difficult to comprehend how the exact down to single horse power figures without any estimate of uncertainty can even be obtained. Could somebody explain (measuring on track performance wont get you there because factoring out aerodynamic efficency and loses in powetrain for example among a few other factors are most difficult if not impossible, measuring r.p.m figures wont get you there because torque is not linear let alone constant and I doubt that the torque curves of the engines are exactly available). Not that I dont doubt the figures. In fact I am just about certain they are at best an educated guess and more likely just complete bollocks.

- Oho -[p][Edited by Oho on 09-19-2000]

[Jecko]

Oho beat me to it. I don't see how you can get such precise figures unless you plug your computer into the respective cars.

[pa]

Exactly. HP figres are, by themselves, not very informative without torque @ rpm figures. Some engines are capable of generating high HP numbers while being totally gutless in the torque department.

[DangerMouse]

There is no way (without running the car in a wind tunnel yourself) of determining the efficiency of a cars aerodynamics and therefore it's horsepower output - this article is pure supposition based on a static aerodynamic model or best guesses at relevant aerodynamic efficiencies and therefore is quite frankly not even worth wiping with!

The efficiency refers to how much drag you produce to make a given amount of down-force – you could probably guess it 10 years ago but with the way the cars are today – impossible.

I should image the Petronas is nearer the top of the list and the BMW and Peugeot somewhere near the bottom along with the Fondmetal - behind the Supertecs.

PS as far as I'm aware Minardi do not have any form of qualifying engine which poses a question mark over all the figures, the differance in speeds (affecting the HP calcultion) is more to do with optimising the car for low fuel loads thus carrying more corner speed.

So going by Minardi running the same engines in qualifying and race trim the differance in setups is worth a calculated 7 BHP - so does the Ferrari qualifying engine produce 3 BHP less than the race item after taking the normalised 7 BHP loss from Minardi into account? - of course not.

Damn lies and statistics!

[RaggedEdge]

I suspect they have just tried to calculate the horsepower from the maximum revs of the engine. Maximum revs can be estimated from the sound of the engine, I believe?

[Sudsbouy]

My understanding is that the Honda and Mugen engines are significantly different. Given the HP figures listed, I'll assume they are for the newer Honda mill.

Thank you.

[Ellen2]

Benzing has been involved in F1 for more than 25 years and worked for F1 teams before (I think Ferrari was one). He is not an idiot for sure. But you also have to understand that these are intended to be estimates. As such, they have margin for errors and only give an indication of who has more power. No surprise at all to see Ilmor and Ferrari ahead and Fondmetal at the bottom. With an Ilmor engine, Gene would be competing for pole!!!!

[FordFan]

Surely they couldn't be RACE estimates, as the Cosworths and Mugens were out before the race was under way for any significant amount of time. If they were based on testing, this presupposes the author was aware of which engines were in the cars at the appropriate times. Not sure how he could know this.

[karlth]

Originally posted by speedy

6. Ford-Cosworth 791/786

This number looks very suspicious as I remember Stewart saying a few months ago, after Toby Scheckter tested the Jaguar, that he had driven a car with 800+ hp.

[speedy]

Nice to see comments from so many aspectcs, this BB really works and raises questions. .

I think the numbers are an educated guess, still maximum number in hp isn't necessarily the best engine. Driveability and the shape of torque graph can not be found out without access to the engine itself and driving the car.

[Pascal]

About 10 years ago, I remember reading that some engineers (originally from Renault, I believe) had come up with a sound analysis software that could calculate a rough HP figure based on the maximum rev figure of the engine, taken from a recording of it. Pretty soon, all teams were spying each other with hi-fi microphones in order to know what their competitors were doing in that field.

I suppose that this kind of equipment is now more widely available, and that these figures are based on such a technology. But as already pointed out, they only tell one part of the story. They don't give any figure for torque nor for usable engine range. Therefore, I don't doubt them in themselves, but I would not pay too much attention to them either...

[Alena]

Originally posted by speedy
The measurements were done by an Italian engineer, Enrico Benzing with "a special computer program" whatever it stands for.

I would like to see the specs for this "special computer program". Sounds bit doubtful. The value of the "computer program" results is quite low if it isn't documented or explained anyhow.

Estimations of horsepowers can be made without "special computer programs" if you have suitable measurements.

[speedy]

Alena,

I think the very first thing I wrote was that this is not any absolute truth, just a piece of news from a magazine. I put the "special computer program" between "" for obvious reasons. I think Pascal is in right direction suggesting that the results have been achieved by sound analysis. (How else ??)

[Alena]

I was not blaming you, Speedy. But usually I'd like to hear on what the results are based on. "Special computer program" sounds bit like he's using dice and his own opinions.

I don't know much about physics but in ideal situation engine power can be calculated using objects (car+engine) physical properties and speed (acceleration) measurements. Formula may be (==is) although much more complicated.

[DangerMouse]

Working out maximum HP from the revs was reasonably accurate a few years back (and still is in most cases outside F1) now we've got to the point (in F1) where power isn't increasing with revs in the same linear fashion - that's because the time duration at which the inlet valve is open isn't long enough for the 300CC cylinder to be completely filled with the fuel/air mixture (remember forced induction is banned) so VE is dropping off - That's why Ferrari and Toyota (and Brian Hart) was looking at building a 12 cylinder F1 engine before the FIA stepped in and limited engines to 10 cylinders, VE would have been maintained to higher revs as the then 250CC cylinder would have filled more quickly.

Therefore HP can no longer be accurately calculated based on peak revs, and yes, as long as you can guess how the crank is configured (in terms of how the cylinders fire in relation to each other) it's easy to work out max revs by sound analysis.


Also agreed, peak horsepower doesn't really matter it's the area under the usable band of horsepower that counts - that's why the Supertec is such a good engine it has a broad and strong spread of power as does the Ferrari/Petronas The Beemer is also rumoured to be good in this respect but is quite a bit behind with outright power.

[desmo]

Let's hear now from Ing. Benzing:

"If we now can reliably talk of 800hp outputs, it is exclusively due to the calculation of total drag that can be made preferably with the data relating to the fastest circuits or those with a straight of a certain length, at the end of which is a brief stabilising section in which the forces that oppose the advancement of the vehicle and the total forces available at the periphery of the driven wheels are balanced. It is at this point that Tag-Hueuer installed their speed trap, to record momentary speed. With this factor known, the rolling resistance of the tyres is calculated via an equation with coefficients varying according to the track surface characteristics and the main characteristics of the tyre itself. The calculation of aerodynamic drag, a quadratic function of speed, requires a relatively simple definition (via the acquisition of CAD images) of the frontal area and complex research into the nondimensional drag coefficient or Cx. This value is determined by means of a mathematical model that I have developed over decades of calculations and that permits innumerable comparisons between different bodies (and interference between them), some demonstrated in the wind tunnel, other simulated and still others such as wing profiles, perfectly calculable. Drag due to ground-effect is aproximated in an empirical-theoretical fashion according to the shape of the underbody and it's established ground clearance."

Obviously room for error exists in so complex a formula, but the relative numbers do ring true to me. In any case it's surely as close as we'll ever be to the truth in this matter.

[DangerMouse]

Yup we can all work on our own calcualtions until the result looks like what we'd expect - I'm still not convinced!

[speedy]

Just occured to me how good car Williams is in the light of the figures, they are down in hp, but ahead in points by a margin compared with Jordan and BAR. Once again it's not only engine power....

[arcwulf7]

Given the focus of most f1 constructors put on horsepower it seems they DO consider it a key element in determining performance. Horsepower is the ability to perform work and thus is the fundamental measurement in engine power. That work of course relates to producing torque and turning the wheels-- and moving the weight of the car through the air, against the resistance of the road. But once the power is produced its transference to motion through the drive train and wheels is probably fairly uniform among the teams, as is the rev range that it is maximized. Other key elements are of course the weight of engine, and its centre of gravity for handling considerations, but hp is of big interest to the competitors, and thus a closely guarded secret.

[DangerMouse]

speedy, I believe the Williams to be the best chassis on the grid today hampered by an average engine - like the Jordan of 97.

It's no coincidence either that this is the first Williams that has had significant design input from Patrick Head in a long while!