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Bob Jane's cars - where are they?


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#101 David Shaw

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Posted 03 November 2007 - 11:40

Thanks to my friend Scott who mailed me some photocopies of RCN which came out very clear, I have this photo of Harvey from the second round at Oran Park. I'm not 100% sure that it is Oran Park as I wasn't familiar with it back then and it looks very rural. Hopefully somebody more familiar with the track back then can confirm.
This appears to be the 'Jane' chassis again as it looks exactly like the Warwick Farm car.
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Unfortunately, the photo of Harvey in the Lakeside review was actually an M10B McLaren at what appears to be Peters Corner at Sandown!

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#102 Ray Bell

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Posted 03 November 2007 - 18:51

Originally posted by David Shaw
Thanks to my friend Scott who mailed me some photocopies of RCN which came out very clear, I have this photo of Harvey from the second round at Oran Park. I'm not 100% sure that it is Oran Park as I wasn't familiar with it back then and it looks very rural. Hopefully somebody more familiar with the track back then can confirm.
This appears to be the 'Jane' chassis again as it looks exactly like the Warwick Farm car.
Posted Image
Unfortunately, the photo of Harvey in the Lakeside review was actually an M10B McLaren at what appears to be Peters Corner at Sandown!


Yes, that is Oran Park... telephoto lens brings that shed right up, you never see it when you're there!

As to the transposition of the Niel Allen Peters Corner photo, this happened twice... later in the year another pic got the same treatment.

#103 David Shaw

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Posted 03 November 2007 - 21:15

Also of note from the Racing Car News article on the Jane, it mentions:

"...but unlike the Brabham, the oil cooler is at the back mounted above the rear crossmember."

This is clearly the case in the Oran Park photo.

#104 David Shaw

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Posted 04 November 2007 - 05:35

I wonder if I went to the Mustang Extravaganza at Sandown on Friday, would I bump into John Harvey?

#105 jcurran

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Posted 04 November 2007 - 11:50

Originally posted by Allen Brown
Great work David. I thought the lid had finally been rammed closed on this particular can of worms. The article in RCN seemed to have sorted it all out but now we're back to the drawing board.

James - delighted to have you here too. Do you or your father have any pictures of the BT23E as you received it or shortly afterwards?


G'day Allan,

I should have some photos of the car as raced as an F2, but would need to dig them up and scan. Let me know what you had in mind.

James.

#106 Allen Brown

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Posted 04 November 2007 - 12:03

James

Anything that would let us see the specification of the car at the time your father bought it. So the earlier the better. The rollover hoop seems to be the most significant feature - we need to know what supports were fitted to it.

Many thanks

Allen

#107 Andrew Fellowes

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Posted 04 November 2007 - 22:58

Originally posted by Allen Brown
The rollover hoop seems to be the most significant feature - we need to know what supports were fitted to it.

Apparently similar to those on the Jane which may explain the confusion. I understand they were still on the car after Bob Curran sold it. James if you do find a photo it will be very interesting to see.
Andrew

#108 giffo

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Posted 05 November 2007 - 02:51

Here are two cropped images of the Jane car when purchaced by Neil & before restoration
You can see one of the 2 rear supports in question

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Posted Image

#109 David Shaw

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Posted 05 November 2007 - 03:35

Good photos, thanks. Those rear supports look more Jane than BT23E. Obviously the front supports had been removed at some stage.

As seen in this photo of the BT23E from the 1970 Symmons Plains round, the roll hoop appears to me to be of a larger radius, and where the rear supports attach to the main hoop appears to be lower down.

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It is very hard to pinpoint when Harvey started running the Jane, as you are looking at tiny details as it is more a slow transformation from the Brabham, with even the bodywork on the Jane looking all the world like a BT23.

#110 giffo

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Posted 05 November 2007 - 03:59

I have found & uploaded these images of the Jane car prior to resto
They show (for BT23 experts) some of the Britten chassis differences at the rear & the shape of the fuel tanks that the Jane car used.
Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

#111 David Shaw

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Posted 05 November 2007 - 05:52

In The Age article They Aim to Beat the World , they mention that the engine was to be a stressed member, which it obviously isn't in these photos.

Would this have changed with the change from the Repco V8?

#112 giffo

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Posted 05 November 2007 - 06:36

In The Age article They Aim to Beat the World , they mention that the engine was to be a stressed member, which it obviously isn't in these photos.



Agreed but this is a Fiat Twin cam & as you can see there is almost enough space in there for another engine. (not really but you get the drift) With out knowing how the new engine was supposed to look & it would be impossible to tell and if there have been structural changes made to the chassis. Without Denis digging around thru some of his image collections to compare it's only guess work but as it is shown in those images I posted I do agree you

#113 David Shaw

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 04:02

I received this photocopy in the mail today thanks to Scott Mackay, from the 1971 Competition Yearbook.
This looks very much Jane to me as well, roll hoop, oil cooler et all.

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#114 giffo

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 22:11

Great find David
I would now hypothesize to suggest that you are indeed correct when earlier you mentioned that you believed that the Britton built chassis actually debuted earlier that Sandown. A pretty big call to win in a new car in its first race with out testing anyway.
Other than the rear roll hoop stays, notice the lines taken by the engine cover. The lower edge follows the chassis shape which is clearly seen in the images that I posted earlier of the chassis. In one of the earlier article it also mentions the F1 Tyrrell style of body work. I wounded what this was about, but this image you posted clearly shows this styling. Only if we can see a few images that were taken immediately after the BT23E-1 chassis went to Tasmania will this be able to be confirmed.
Good detective work!

#115 jcurran

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Posted 11 November 2007 - 09:12

Originally posted by giffo
Great find David
I would now hypothesize to suggest that you are indeed correct when earlier you mentioned that you believed that the Britton built chassis actually debuted earlier that Sandown. A pretty big call to win in a new car in its first race with out testing anyway.
Other than the rear roll hoop stays, notice the lines taken by the engine cover. The lower edge follows the chassis shape which is clearly seen in the images that I posted earlier of the chassis. In one of the earlier article it also mentions the F1 Tyrrell style of body work. I wounded what this was about, but this image you posted clearly shows this styling. Only if we can see a few images that were taken immediately after the BT23E-1 chassis went to Tasmania will this be able to be confirmed.
Good detective work!


Giffo,

Sorry for not posting any pics of the car in Tas, but they are all with my Father (Bob) and its a few hours drive to his place, so will do when I can next get down that way. I have spoken to him regarding the roll hoop stays, and the Bt 23 had a single stay when he brought the car, which needed modifying to suit the twim cam engine as fitted. He has no recolection of any other brackets on the hoop for twin stays. The car still had the large side tanks and rear wing incorporated into the engine cover / body work with two sections either side adjustable at the rear, while the very centre non adjustable, when he bought and raced the car, very different to any other car at that time. When he sold teh car in 1980 (approx) it still had the original body work as per Harvey.

Hope this helps.

James.

#116 giffo

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Posted 11 November 2007 - 22:43

Hi James
No worries & it can wait with regards to you getting hold of some images. I know it make bugger all difference after near 40 years but it is interesting picking up on these things & working out what actually was done, which could be quite different to what was reported. Neil (owner) unfortunatly has no images of the car (other than what has been published) from when it left the Jane organisation.
Thanks for your help

#117 jcurran

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Posted 29 November 2007 - 06:25

Originally posted by giffo
Hi James
No worries & it can wait with regards to you getting hold of some images. I know it make bugger all difference after near 40 years but it is interesting picking up on these things & working out what actually was done, which could be quite different to what was reported. Neil (owner) unfortunatly has no images of the car (other than what has been published) from when it left the Jane organisation.
Thanks for your help


Giffo,

Finally managed to get down to the farm and look a various photos of Bt23e, when my dad ran it. I haven't managed to scan a photo (having a few problems!), but will fix soon hopefully. On close inspection of the photos brackets for twin roll bar braces were still in place, even though a single stay was utilised.

Car is the same as shown in the 1970 Symmons Plains phots with Harvey.

Hope this helps.

#118 giffo

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Posted 29 November 2007 - 06:46

Hi James
So the twin rear stays was a mod done to the BT23e chassis and also the moving to the oil cooler to the rear by the Jane Corp & then incorperated into the new Jane Repco chassis.
Posted Image
http://www.autopics....c.html?cache=no
The pic being shown here is the BT23e with modified chassis & bodywork
Also refer to Lakeside image above.

#119 jcurran

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Posted 30 November 2007 - 02:04

Originally posted by giffo
Hi James
So the twin rear stays was a mod done to the BT23e chassis and also the moving to the oil cooler to the rear by the Jane Corp & then incorperated into the new Jane Repco chassis.
Posted Image
http://www.autopics....c.html?cache=no
The pic being shown here is the BT23e with modified chassis & bodywork
Also refer to Lakeside image above.


Giffo,

My thoughts would be that the Lakeside pic is of the Jane, not bt23e. The body work in teh photos I have are all the same as the earlier Symmons pic posted.

Cheers,

James.

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#120 giffo

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Posted 30 November 2007 - 02:37

Thanks James
That brings a different light onto it now. It will be good to see a pic or 2 when you can scan them of BT23e.
Body work aside it's the rear stays that are the main point in question
I'd be also interested in Mr Fellowes & Mr Browns thoughts here now that you suggest the Jane car ran from Lakeside

#121 David Shaw

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Posted 30 November 2007 - 02:58

Thanks for your valuable input James. Comparing the Lakeside/Oran Park photos with the Symmons Plains photo, the roll hoop is a different shape. On the Symmons photo, it appears to have parallel uprights with a larger diameter radius of the top bend, whereas on the Lakeside photo there is a smaller radius top bend and the uprights then diverge on an angle.

The sides of the cockpit in the later photos are much higher too, I suspect that they hid the forward roll hoop supports.

There is also the side tanks and the large rear wing. A lot of these items could have been alterations to the BT23E, but if you were developing a new car for a debut later in the year why would you put so much time, money and effort into what was soon to be a superseded car?

My money is still on a Lakeside Gold Star debut for the Jane. I'm just surprised that the specialist motor racing press didn't pick up on it.

#122 Allen Brown

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Posted 30 November 2007 - 09:08

I agree with David. If this is right, it has important implications for the way the Jane-Repco has to be viewed. Rather than being an all-new car called a Jane, it was first raced as a Brabham - seemingly just a continuation of the BT23E - and was only rebranded a few races later.

Describing this in race results during 1970 will be fun! I'm glad I now have the option of footnotes for every car.

#123 David McKinney

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Posted 30 November 2007 - 10:57

But you need to be a bit careful ;)
The (nearly) "all-new" Jane exists in WA, and the BT23E (chassis plus) in the US...

#124 David Shaw

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Posted 30 November 2007 - 15:17

We are well aware David. It is understood that the value of a commodity varies according to what it can do or what it has done. The problem is that you can't expect to the value of each to be increased because of a race that each has claimed to have run in.

We are all seeing the same evidence. Let each party draw their own conclusion.

#125 Ray Bell

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Posted 30 November 2007 - 15:28

Do you want me to ask John Sawyer when I catch up with him?

I have to track him down to talk to him about Janey's racing exploits...

#126 David McKinney

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Posted 30 November 2007 - 18:43

Originally posted by David Shaw
We are well aware David

Sorry. I should have made clear I was directing my comments to Allen, who seemed in danger of turning two cars into one

#127 Allen Brown

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Posted 30 November 2007 - 19:23

Don't worry David, I'm clear on the existence of two cars. There has been a question over the way the Jane should be described on its papers and David S's detective work has a significant impact on that.

#128 David Shaw

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Posted 01 December 2007 - 02:27

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Do you want me to ask John Sawyer when I catch up with him?

I have to track him down to talk to him about Janey's racing exploits...


That would be great if you could please Ray. It would help greatly to have the input of somebody that was there.

#129 Allen Brown

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Posted 01 December 2007 - 10:23

Originally posted by David Shaw
It would help greatly to have the input of somebody that was there.

Exactly what I was thinking. :)

#130 giffo

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Posted 02 December 2007 - 08:47

A close up view of the Jane Recpo
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Posted Image

#131 Ray Bell

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Posted 06 December 2007 - 12:20

Those tapered fuel tanks tell a story...

"The idea was to get the weight down lower," John Harvey told me today. And he told me about the ones with the extreme shape:

Posted Image
Thanks, David... good of you to provide this pic

"This was the cause of a huge dispute between myself and the mechanics, in particular John Sawyer," John said. "We had these huge tanks, and there was also a scuttle tank with plastic lines feeding down into them, the thing must have held 40 gallons, I was driving a potential bomb!"

After trying to get them to see reason on it, he was forced to watch as they came out onto the grid after the Oran Park warm-up lap and topped it up, ignoring him as he pointed to the front wheels cambered in.

"The car was just terrible in that race. I don't remember where I finished, but I know I ran the distance, it was a long race too, it must have been a Gold Star event." he continued. "The thing wouldn't turn, it wouldn't stop, it just wouldn't do anything right because of the weight. So after the race I had them pump out the unused fuel - and there was twenty gallons!"

So that's why the tanks were simplified to the triangular shape of the later races.

On the subject of it being called a 'Jane-Repco Brabham' he told me that it was supposed to be called that most of the year. Bob was trying to promote the idea but 'the journos took no notice until Sandown.'

And on Art Valdez... "Art's a friend of mine. I knew the Brabham had been sold overseas, but I didn't know where it went. Then one day Art was out here and told me he had a BT23E."

John pricked up his ears... "'There was only ever one BT23E,' I said to him, 'and I used to drive that car!'" The ensuing discussion revealed that it was obviously a nicely repaired chassis, but that there were signs on the lower tubes of scraping on the road as in a crash.

He also confirmed that the easy way of identifying the two chassis was the roll bar braces as pointed out above. And I'm sorry, guys, I forgot to mention this to John Sawyer when I spoke to him today.

#132 David Shaw

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Posted 06 December 2007 - 21:01

Thanks very much for that Ray, it now confirms in my mind that Round 1 at Symmons was the last Gold Star appearance for the BT23E.

Interesting that they fitted the huge tanks and filled them up, not realising that he was going to be carrying so much extra weight. That may explain why the Warwick Farm report mentions Harvey driving "what now looks an old, heavy car", when actually it was a new, heavy car!

#133 Ray Bell

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Posted 06 December 2007 - 22:49

I think it boils down to them miscalculating the size of the tank... literally not getting the cubic feet to gallons conversion right...

6.5 isn't it? Tricks a lot of people, that one!

When I get a chance I'll see if Symmons ties in with their recollections. I would say it's right, though, a new car not quite ready, get the old one out for the first round. Used to happen all the time.

#134 giffo

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Posted 06 December 2007 - 23:40

Does someone have the list of dates & placings for the complete Gold Star series of that year?
In order of how the events were conducted.

Also currently the Jane car has fibreglass sides inplace of the original tanks & smaller tanks are fitted inside of these. The original big tanks are somewhere inside a shipping container being stored.
If you think about it you could imagine how John Harvey would have felt 'Sitting within a Bomb' so to speak with the first set of side tanks.


#135 Ray Bell

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Posted 07 December 2007 - 01:10

I've got them, but I can't post them right now...

Maybe later? Or does David have them?

#136 giffo

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Posted 07 December 2007 - 01:15

Cheers Ray

Also - originally posted by David Shaw

Actually, it says "Harvey had his hands full of what now looks an old heavy car."
Could it be that he was driving it with a greater degree of care because it was a new car with great hopes riding on it? It certainly didn't look an old heavy car in Round 1 at the start of the year.


Posted Image

When read inconjuction with Ray's post above when John comments on fuel load you can understand how the journo got the impression of "Harvey had his hands full of what now looks an old heavy car."

#137 Ray Bell

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Posted 07 December 2007 - 01:56

Originally posted by giffo
Posted Image


By the way, for the pic of Harvey that's showing Allen's M10B, go to P 22 of RCN July 1970.

Symmons Plains (66 laps - 99 miles)

1. John Harvey (Brabham Repco) 1h 02:34.9
2. Leo Geoghegan (Lotus 39 Repco) 1h 02:39.1
3. Kevin Bartlett (Mildren Waggott) 1h 02:41.8
4. Max Stewart (Mildren Waggott) 1h 03:21.9
5. Len Goodwin (McLaren M4a FVA) 62 laps
6. Glynn Scott (Bowin P3 FVA) 62 laps
Fastest Lap: Harvey, Bartlett, 55.0

Lakeside (69 laps - 103.5 miles)

1. Max Stewart (Mildren Waggott) 1h 03:18.5
2. John Harvey (Brabham Repco) 67 laps
3. Glynn Scott (Elfin 600 Waggott 1600) 65 laps
4. John McCormack (Elfin 600D Climax) 63 laps
5. Jack Bono (Brabham BT6 1600TC) 60 laps
6. Len Goodwin (McLaren M4a FVA) 60 laps
Fastest Lap: Stewart, 52.8 (lap record)
* In the report it mentions that Harvey crashed at Surfers during the week. In which car?

Oran Park (85 laps - 88.4 miles)

1. Max Stewart (Mildren Waggott) 1h 032:05.5
2. Leo Geoghegan (Lotus 59 Waggott) 1h 02:22.5
3. Garrie Cooper (Elfin 600D Repco) 82 laps
4. Malcolm Ramsay (Elfin 600D Repco) 81 laps
5. John McCormack (Elfin 600D Climax) 80 laps
6. John Harvey (Brabham Repco) 80 laps
Fastest Lap: Geoghegan, 42.7 (lap record)

Warwick Farm (45 laps - 101.25 miles)

1. Leo Geoghegan (Lotus 59 Waggott) 1h 05:42.2
2. Garrie Cooper (Elfin 600D Repco) 1h 07:01.1
3. Bob Muir (Rennmax Waggott) 1h 07:01.4
4. Malcolm Ramsay (Elfin 600D Repco) 43 laps
5. Jack Bono (Brabham BT6 1600TC) 43 laps
6. Ian Fergusson (Powin P3a 1600TC) 41 laps
Fastest Lap: Geoghegan, 1:26.7

Sandown Park (56 laps - 108.9 miles)

1. John Harvey (Jane Repco) 1h 04:39.5
2. Garrie Cooper (Elfin 600D Repco) 1h 04:48.2
3. Bob Muir (Rennmax Waggott) 1h 04:48.4
4. Leo Geoghegan (Lotus 59 Waggott) 1h 04:50.2
5. Tony Stewart (Elfin 600B 1600TC) 52 laps
6. Maurie Quincey (Elfin 600B 1600TC) 51 laps
Fastest Lap: Harvey, Cooper, 1:07.4*

Mallala (50 laps - 80 miles)

1. Leo Geoghegan (Lotus 59 Waggott) 58:55.4
2. Max Stewart (Mildren Waggott) 59:00.4
3. Barry Kirk (Elfin 600B 1600TC) 42 laps
4. Malcolm Ramsay (Elfin 600D Repco) 42 laps
5. Helene Bittner (Rebelle Ford 1.5) 40 laps
Fastest Lap: John McCormack (Elfin 600D Repco) 1:09.1 (lap record)

* The results give Harvey this lap time in the 'Fastest Lap' section, but not in the time alongside his first place (68.2 there)

There may be some discrepancies in the car descriptions. For instance, I'm not sure about all the Elfin 600s and in one case their engines either. '1600TC' means a Ford/Lotus twin cam (125E-based) engine.

#138 David Shaw

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Posted 07 December 2007 - 02:00

Ray beat me to it. FWIW, here's what I have compiled:
Posted Image

#139 Ray Bell

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Posted 07 December 2007 - 02:09

To read what David has posted there, open the file, right click, left click on 'copy image'...

The paste it to a graphics window, like Irfanview for preference, it comes up large enough to read.

And it reveals:

McCormack's car and Ramsay's were Elfin 600Cs, McCormack's changed from a Climax to a Repco between Oran Park and Warwick Farm.

The fastest lap at Sandown was shared by Geoghegan and Cooper, not Harvey and Cooper (!)

It also gives grid positions and reasons for retirements, along with the whole list of runners and DNSs.

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#140 David Shaw

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Posted 07 December 2007 - 02:28

Or you can click on it, where it will open at a reduced size in a window, click on it again and it will be full size.

#141 giffo

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Posted 07 December 2007 - 02:36

Cheers
I knew I had seen David's spread sheet but for the life of me I couldn't remember where
Thanks to both of you

So after reading Davids spread sheet it would be agreed based on whats now come to light that post Havey's win at Symmons Plains the chassis used at Lakeside & from then on was the new Jane and not the as thought BT23E-1

#142 David Shaw

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Posted 07 December 2007 - 02:50

That will hopefully be onto my Gold Star website within a fortnight along with a couple of other updates.

#143 jcurran

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 01:43

Originally posted by giffo
Cheers
I knew I had seen David's spread sheet but for the life of me I couldn't remember where
Thanks to both of you

So after reading Davids spread sheet it would be agreed based on whats now come to light that post Havey's win at Symmons Plains the chassis used at Lakeside & from then on was the new Jane and not the as thought BT23E-1


Image as prommised:-
Posted Image[/URL][/IMG]

Brabham BT23-e in Tas driven by Bob Curran around 1976/77 in F2 specs with twin cam. Note you can still see the brackets for the two rear roll hoop stays.

James Curran.

#144 David Shaw

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 02:26

Thanks James, great picture. Yes, it looks just like the BT23-1 from Symmons. Case closed I think.

#145 giffo

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 03:15

Case Closed - Agreed on the that part & thanks for the image

Could someone please explain to me Allen's statement tho?

I agree with David. If this is right, it has important implications for the way the Jane-Repco has to be viewed. Rather than being an all-new car called a Jane, it was first raced as a Brabham - seemingly just a continuation of the BT23E - and was only rebranded a few races later.


This has turned out far different to what I ever thought it would.

...before coments come this way..... Yes they are different cars!....

#146 Ray Bell

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 03:19

I'm not so sure...

I still think he ran the BT23E at Lakeside... did you check that pic in RCN, David. And let's not forget that's not all that this thread is about.

#147 timbo

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 05:02

The upcoming historic race meeting at Pukekohe NZ on January 27 2008 lists Lance Carwardine entered in a Jane Brabham BT23.
Also, Octane (UK) magazine lists an ex Bob Jane Lotus 26 (elan) in the classified section (UK owned, I think).
It is white with a red/yellow/red stripe down the middle.
The ex Pancho Carter pole position winning Indycar (1986 March?) was on display at the Bathurst Motor racing Museum last time I visited at easter 2007. The Jaguar Mk2 was also there (same colours as the Lotus 26).

#148 David Shaw

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 05:14

Originally posted by Ray Bell
I still think he ran the BT23E at Lakeside... did you check that pic in RCN, David.

Which pic was that Ray, as the RCN photo of Harvey in the Lakeside review was acually a McLaren F5000? The photo in post 113 definitely shows the Jane, but coming from an annual it is possible that it is not necessarily from the meeting so captioned. Unfortunately, photos of Harvey's car at that meeting are few and far between. The fact that it was 3 months from Symmons to Lakeside, and then only 3 weeks to Oran Park, plus this:

Originally posted by jcurran
G'day All, I can confirm that Bt23-e was in pieces in Melbourne waiting to be re-assembled in very early 1970, by late 1970 it was sitting in a shed in Hobart waiting for a twin cam engine install ready for F2. in Tas. It was purchased from Bob Jane by my father (Bob Curran).

James.

indicate to me that Lakeside was very likely its debut, and it would require some unknown photos to be unearthed from Lakeside to convince me otherwise.

Originally posted by Ray Bell
And let's not forget that's not all that this thread is about.

Oh, of course not. I was just saying that I believe the case is closed that Harvey drove the Jane from Lakeside on, it definitely doesn't mean thread closed.

#149 giffo

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Posted 18 December 2007 - 05:46

The upcoming historic race meeting at Pukekohe NZ on January 27 2008 lists Lance Carwardine entered in a Jane Brabham BT23


Neil & Lance are taking 4 cars to NZ & then on to Victoria for the Formula Junior events.
Lotus 20/22 & McEntee FJ's & the Jane & Macon F2's. Since they will be driving 2 cars each both will be very busy over the 4 events in both countries.

#150 Allen Brown

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Posted 20 December 2007 - 12:23

From Denis Lupton: Fred Wheelhouse and the Jane some time later:

Posted Image

Edited by Allen Brown, 11 January 2010 - 12:45.