47 replies to this topic

[Gerard Gamand]

No less than 4 projects became reality in 1969 : Cosworth, Lotus 63, Mc Laren M9A and Matra MS84.
My question is : Who was the first ?
Does it's Cosworth or Lotus ?

[f1steveuk]

Testing or racing?

[Gerard Gamand]

My question was on Testing.

Does Lotus gave the idea, or does it's Cosworth ?

[macoran]

I am not 100% sure, but I thought it was Lotus.
Colin Chapman/Maurice Phillippe borrowing heavily on Lotus 56 Turbine experience at Indy.

[Steve O'Brien]

Was it the Lotus 56B.

[Gerard Gamand]

No, Macoran speak of the Lotus 56 turbine for Indianapolis 1968.

The Lotus 56B turbine was a derivativ for F1, make in 1971.

[Leigh Trevail]

http://[IMG]http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/345/forumok5.th.jpg[/IMG]

For what it is worth I have this photo, I have no idea which car it is, but it is 4X4

[GIGLEUX]

Originally posted by Leigh Trevail
http://[IMG]http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/345/forumok5.th.jpg[/IMG]

For what it is worth I have this photo, I have no idea which car it is, but it is 4X4

The Cosworth

[Rob Ryder]

Cosworth at Silverstone. It looks like Chapman and Rindt chatting in front of the car, and Duckworth in the white shirt?
Rob

[Gary C]

what about the Lotus 64, when was that tested first time?

[sterling49]

Originally posted by Gary C
what about the Lotus 64, when was that tested first time?

Didn't John Miles drive that in '69??

[Gerard Gamand]

Very interresting pic Leigh !

Chapman and Rindt seems to be very interrested by the Cosworth 4WD...

But : wat's the date of this practise ??

[MCS]

The F1 Lotus was designated the 63, but I think the question is which car tested first in 1969 - which rules out the likes of the Ferguson P99 and BRM P67 which obviously appeared earlier.

My guess is the Cosworth. Didn't it test with Trevor Taylor at the wheel during the Spring?

Somebody here will know as ever...

[dretceterini]

Almost but not absolutely certain it was the Cosworth

[Gerard Gamand]

The Lotus 64 was the Indianapolis 4WD car for Mario Andretti with the turbocharged 2.6 Ford V8

[Gerard Gamand]

The question is exactly : who initialised the concept for F1 3.0 ?
was it Cosworth ( because Keith Duckworth had think about it after 67 boared German GP) or was Lotus (because the Indianapolis experience of the 1968 56) ??
So I'm searching who was the firts on the track for testing ?

[Gary C]

63 or 64??? Sorry, I was always terrible at maths.

[Gerard Gamand]

Leigh,

Much better like this

[Leigh Trevail]

That’s much better, I had been told that it was the Cosworth, but with Chapman and Rint in the picture I was never sure, thank you for confirming this. The photographer is unknown to me so I cannot credit him for his work.

[Ted Walker]

Looks like J Stewart on the far right in cap ?????

[Pedro 917]

Looks more like Pedro to me ??

[GIGLEUX]

Originally posted by Gerard Gamand
The Lotus 64 was the Indianapolis 4WD car for Mario Andretti with the turbocharged 2.6 Ford V8

Four cars: Andretti, G.Hill, Rindt and a spare one.

[Gerard Gamand]

I believe it's Cosworth 4WD who was the first on track in the begining of 1969 at Silverstone???

It was tested by Mike Costin, Brian Redman and Trevor Taylor (Even Jackie Stewart tryed for some laps, one day where he was testing his own conventional Matra MS80)

Where are this 4WD chassis now ?

Donington have :

Cosworth 4WD#01
Lotus 63#01
Mc Laren M9A#01

In Australia ?

Cosworth 4WD#02 unfinished chassis

But what about the two other ??

Lotus 63#02 ??

Matra MS84#01 ??

[Roger Clark]

The Lotus and the Matra were both at the Dutch Grand Prix on 21st June. Is there evidence that the Cosworth was tested before that?

However, I don't think that first on track provides much of a guide to who initiated the concept. These things took some time to design and build with the resources the teams had at the time and it's likely that they all came up with the concept independently.

[Sharman]

Do I remember the Lotus at Oulton? I'm sure it (or the Cosworth?) was tested in practice for one of the F1 events there.

[GIGLEUX]

Originally posted by Gerard Gamand
No less than 4 projects became reality in 1969 : Cosworth, Lotus 63, Mc Laren M9A and Matra MS84.
My question is : Who was the first ?
Does it's Cosworth or Lotus ?

In fact I think that the first on the track was Matra but not with the MS84! During the winter 1968-1969 they conceived a MS11 with a FWD hydraulic transmission. The car was finished in the first weeks of 1969 and tried at Velizy. This kind of transmission was too fragile and the hydraulic ducts were always breaking. So they but the project on the side and realized the MS84 with a Ferguson transmission system.

[bschenker]

I think its difficult to say, but the person on the rear of the car, have something that’s remember my a Robin Herd.

[Gerard Gamand]

You are absolutly right Jean-Maurice !

Because of the delay proposed by Ferguson (no pieces before april 1969), Matra want to do his own system.

It's Bernard Boyer himself who designed an very original hydraulic 4WD Matra MS10 during winter 68-69 and the first test began in January 69. Not on a racing track, but at Velizy...in small street !!

But, very early, Boyer had to leave this way. The whole system was too heavy and the transmission broked immediatly because of too much pression of oil.

The patron, Jean-Luc Lagardère was not very happy with this adventure...

So Boyer go back and designed the tubular chassis of the Matra MS84 FWD with Ferguson parts.

[Gerard Gamand]

An interresting pic of the construction of the 4WD Matra MS84, take during Spring 1969 at Velizy.

[Gerard Gamand]

And the thing !

Matra MS11 4WD with hydraulic system on test in January 1969

[macoran]

Originally posted by bschenker
I think its difficult to say, but the person on the rear of the car, have something that’s remember my a Robin Herd.

Yes Beat, I thought I recognized something Robin Herd-ish about the guy peeking into the rear suspension.

[Rob Ryder]

Originally posted by Sharman
Do I remember the Lotus at Oulton? I'm sure it (or the Cosworth?) was tested in practice for one of the F1 events there.

Lotus had one of their 63s at the 1969 International Gold Cup.
Hill tried it in practice, and Rindt raced it to 2nd place.
Rob

[paulhooft]

I saw both Lotus 63 versions in the paddock at the Dutch Grand Prix in 1969...
Fantastic machines!!
I remember the Matra and the Mc Laren where there too
Paul

[Gerard Gamand]

Are you sure for the Mc Laren ?

[paulhooft]

In fact, when writing this,
I am totaly sure of seeing the 2 Lotus 63 versions...
my main focus was on those two!
And I know saw Piers Courage, he was a typical English Gentleman...,
never saw someone like that before..
I think I have seen the 4WD Matra, may be, and I think I have seen it, but are not totaly sure,
I saw the 4WD Mc Laren...
Does that help you?
It was the first time I ever was in the paddock at Grand Prix time...,
and there was a lot to see...
Paul

[Gerard Gamand]

Paul,

I understand your feeling

But, I think the first outing of Mc Laren M9A was at Silverstone

I was there, and remenber very well the last rows with the two Lotus 63 of Miles and Jo Bo, the Derek Bell M9A and the MS84 drived by Beltoise (after the crash of Stewart, he took the car of JPB for the race)

[bschenker]

Lotus had one of their 63s at the 1969 International Gold Cup.

After the race, in discussion with Silvio Moser, Jochen Rindt say in German “Scheiss Auto, das letzte mal das ich es im Rennen fahre!”.
I think to remember that’s the Lotus 63 was never better classified.

Hope somewhere with a better English make the translation!

.

[Sharman]

paulhooft; how did you know he was a typical English gentleman if you had never seen one before? There were a great number of the Beerage involved in Motor Sport. The Threlfalls, Eddie Greenall were some of them. Any more that come to mind?

[alansart]

Originally posted by Gerard Gamand
I believe it's Cosworth 4WD who was the first on track in the begining of 1969 at Silverstone???

It was tested by Mike Costin, Brian Redman and Trevor Taylor (Even Jackie Stewart tryed for some laps, one day where he was testing his own conventional Matra MS80)

Where are this 4WD chassis now ?

Donington have :

Cosworth 4WD#01
Lotus 63#01
Mc Laren M9A#01

In Australia ?

Cosworth 4WD#02 unfinished chassis

But what about the two other ??

Lotus 63#02 ??

Matra MS84#01 ??

I had the pleasure of visiting the Donington Collection yesterday where the Lotus, Mclaren and Cosworth are on display. They also have the earlier BRM.





According to the info on the Lotus 63. Rindt didn't like it as it had peculiar handling and he was concerned that the propshaft was too close to his feet. The other 63 was the car John Dawson-Damer sadly crashed at Goodwood.

[Gerard Gamand]

Thanks for the pics.
We can see how big was the Cosworth in comparaison with the Mc Laren and the Lotus !

[BrianWatson]

This is John Miles testing the Lotus 63 during practice for the British Grand Prix at Silverstone 1969.

Grandprix.com quotes this car as appearing for the first time in practice for the Dutch GP 1969, and as racing in the French GP.

Brian


http://www.bgw.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

[alansart]

Originally posted by BrianWatson
This is John Miles testing the Lotus 63 during practice for the British Grand Prix at Silverstone 1969.

Grandprix.com quotes this car as appearing for the first time in practice for the Dutch GP 1969, and as racing in the French GP.

Brian


http://www.bgw.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

Looks like a 49?

[Rob Ryder]

Originally posted by alansart

Looks like a 49?

And Jochen Rindt at the wheel

[BrianWatson]

Oh dear, senility rules yet again. Quite right. I was thinking of this one with Graham Hill driving. Thanks,

Brian


http://www.bgw.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

[Michael Clark]

Originally posted by Gerard Gamand
Leigh,

Could the chap without the shirt be ESY?

[Michael Clark]

The sitting down one, not the tall darker one...

[Michael Clark]

Howden Ganley suggests the semi naked man sitting down is Innes Ireland

[MCS]

Originally posted by Michael Clark
Howden Ganley suggests the semi naked man sitting down is Innes Ireland

Talking to Peter Scott-Russell ?