38 replies to this topic

[Lotus11Register]

An article in the November 26, 1965 issue of Autosport makes reference to an experimental Matra Djet fitted with a Lotus twin-cam engine. Was this the Matra 610, the beginning of the series of Matra 6xx sports/racers? Did this car ever compete and how successful was it?

[Gerard Gamand]

Bernard Boyer, a former formula Junior french champion in 1961, worked on the little Alpine for le Mans during 63 and 64. He was engaged by Matra of Jean-Luc Lagardère in autumn 1965.

On the Claude Le Guézec demand, his first work for Matra was to study a Djet prototype to run the "Tour de Corse 1965". Jacques Hubert designed a new tubular chassis, Matra bought a Ford-Lotus Twin Cam and a Hewland gearbox, and they put a modified Djet body on it.

They call it the car a Matra 610.

The car was not ready for the "Tour de Corse", but for the "Criterium des Cevennes". It was drived by Philippe Farjon and Johnny Servoz Gavin. It was a disastrous and they was out immediatly.

Soon after, Jean-Luc Lagardère would'nt hear of this "Super Djet" and go to BRM for a deal with their V8 2 liters to prepare the "24 H du Mans race". Bernard Boyer built a brand new Matra 620 for the 1966 season. It was the begening of an other story...

[Frank de Jong]

You can see the car here

[dretceterini]

There was also a one-off factory Matra Jet 6 (NOT D-jet 6) that had a 1600 Renault (still pushrod) rather than a 1300 Renault (and more flaired fenders). The car was in Los Angeles (actually Glendale) about 20 years ago. Tried to buy it but it wasn't for sale. I had a Matra Jet 6 1300 (chassis # RB8 SS 30079...interesting that it had a Rene Bonnet rather than a Matra Bonnet or Matra chassis number) at the time. Joe Smith (the race car photographer from the 1950s) in LA bought the car from me and restored it to Pebble Beach standards circa 1993, with Mike Regalia's help.

I have no idea where the Jet 6 with the 1600, or the Tipo 610 Matra are today.

My car was up for auction in 2005 as per:

Grande Marques 2005
An Important Auction of British and Continental Sports & Touring Cars, Toys, Models and Automobilia
Saturday 15th January 2005

Lot 215a 1966 Matra D Jet 6

(The 6 is simply JET 6, and NOT D-jet 6!!!!)


Registration no:
Chassis no: 30079
Estimate: €0-0

The Jet 6 was the very first mid-engined road cars; it has sometimes erroneously been compared to the Alpine-Renault. Features include a tubular backbone chassis with independent suspension all round by coil springs and double wishbones and disc brakes on all four wheels. It was clothed in a very pretty, and slippery, fibreglass body and kerb weight was just 1,350 lb. To keep down weight, frills such as sound absorption material were absent and that explains why more cars were used for competition than everyday motoring.


Matra went on to make some superb formula and sports cars and its successes include the 1969 F1 World Championship and victory at Le Mans in 1972/¾.

The Jet 6 offered is finished in blue with black interior and is described by the owner to be in "mint" condition; it under went a complete restoration in 1994 and has since been rarely driven. The car was originally exported to The United States (by me, circa 1986, from France) and currently has US and Belgian (??) registration papers.

[Lotus11Register]

Very interesting. Somewhere it is written that Len Terry designed the chassis for the original Bonnet Djet, but it wasn't an authoritative source.

The Jet was a stunning little thing, light & quick in the manner of a Lotus. It seems strange that Matra would replace it with one of the homeliest sports cars of the decade.

[Phil Frog]

Here's the Matra 610

[Gerard Gamand]

The very strong chassis designed by Jacques Hubert for the prototype Matra 610 Lotus TC

[dretceterini]

The car that was for sale in post #4 was I can that I owned. It was a Rene Bonnet and NOT a Matra-Bonnet or a Matra! It had a 1300cc motor, and it was the original motor! I sold the car to Joe Smith in Los Angeles in the late 1980s. The full S/N was RB8-SS-30079 (Rene Bonnet 8 Super Sports)

[T54]

The Jet was a stunning little thing, light & quick in the manner of a Lotus.

But the Alpine-Renault A110's with a variety of engines cleaned their clocks just about anywhere they raced. As Porsche has clearly shown, mid-engine is not always the best thing to do.

[AMICALEMANS]

Rene Bonnet was bought by Matra, but they change the name, some months after...

[Gerard Gamand]

I believe that the true problem was the lack of finance of René Bonnet.

I've alway thought that a Djet (or Jet) was a best package than the A110. But they were so badly built !

When Matra bought René Bonnet, they were not interrested by the Jet. It was a pity and Alpine take the market of berlinette.

I remember the young Jimmy Mieusset drove wonderfully a Works Jet, with a 1600 engine, (I don't know if it was the 610 ???) and beat every body in some french events on circuits and hillclimbs...

[Gerard Gamand]

Trying to promote the Djet, Matra created the "Coupe Matra Djet" for the 1965 french circuits.

Here the start of the Montlhéry heat.

But, as Jean-Luc lagardère could'nt deal with Renault (because of the mariage between Renault and Alpine), he quickly change his mind and leave the Djet on the board of the road...

[T54]

Gerard,
I am one of the guys watching this race from above the pits. Those things were SLOW! I mean it looked like the R8 Gordini class was faster...
But it was fun to watch those guys bang fenders at the "Faye" corner...

I drove a couple of well prepped MATRA Djet cars fitted with the 1600cc Renault, similar to that fitted in an Alpine 1600S. No comparison between the two, the Alpine was heads and shoulders above the MATRA with a common characteristic for both: lack of decent brakes. Peugeot parts never cut it!
I raced two Alpines in the US quite successfully in vintage races in the late 1980's to mid 1990's, and there were a couple of Djets in those races. Same engines. You would lap them before the end of a 12-lap race... the Alpine simply handled so much better and could corner faster with no sweat.

[dretceterini]

Originally posted by T54
Gerard,
I am one of the guys watching this race from above the pits. Those things were SLOW! I mean it looked like the R8 Gordini class was faster...
But it was fun to watch those guys bang fenders at the "Faye" corner...

I drove a couple of well prepped MATRA Djet cars fitted with the 1600cc Renault, similar to that fitted in an Alpine 1600S. No comparison between the two, the Alpine was heads and shoulders above the MATRA with a common characteristic for both: lack of decent brakes. Peugeot parts never cut it!
I raced two Alpines in the US quite successfully in vintage races in the late 1980's to mid 1990's, and there were a couple of Djets in those races. Same engines. You would lap them before the end of a 12-lap race... the Alpine simply handled so much better and could corner faster with no sweat.

The only one I remember vintage racing at that time was a yellow Jet 6/1300, driven by Don Ernst, who also occasionally ran one of those "turtle-bodied" Mini Cooper based cars. I think the quality of the drivers had something to do with lapping the D-Jet inside of 12 laps...

[Tarpon]

the ALPINE berlinette and Matra jet are completely different ,the difference is that the ALPINE 1600 s is a car developped and sold by the factory and that the mATRA jet 1600 is a car that had never existed.You can put a bigger engine in a car but if you don't work on the frame,the brakes,the suspension we have a sort of Corvair turbocharged which need all the road ,Matra has never worked on such a car. The 610 was wider that the jet and was stopped after the corse experience.We can say that Matra knew how to make cars ,winner of three Le Mans ,and formula one too with STEWART .No doubt if they had decided to sell Jet 1600 ,the cars would be very different from a private preparation .

[T54]

Tarpon,
No doubt. I was merely pointing out that the Alpine was a vastly superior car, regardless of who/what made it superior. For years I heard people arguing that the MATRA/Rene Bonnet Djet was such a good car, and for years I have shown them that Alpine used the same basic engines in a vastly superior chassis to make a much better machine. No doubt that MATRA made good racing cars and some of the experiments they made in their early days with the Djet, then Jet chassis were good, but never to the point of being good enough.
Regards,

T54

[Tarpon]

You cannot compare a car developped by a factory and sold for competition and a car that has never existed like a 1600 Jet.I consider to have put this engine in a car that has never been done for that is an heresy.You destroy all the qualities of the genuine car.It is no more a Matra but a "bricolage" .

[Bonde]

Although I've never tried either, I've often heard it said that the Alpines handled really well. It always surprised me at bit, since they were definitely rear-engined, and not centre-engined, unlike the Djet. By rough theory, the Djet should have handled better, like a Lotus Europa, but obviously it didn't. But it was, IMO, such a pretty little car.

[T54]

Tarpon,
With all due respect, Alpine used the same 1100cc and 1300cc motors as sold in the Djet and were always better cars. The Alpine 1600c and 1800cc were rally's giant killers of the early 1970's able to beat the works Porsche 911 2.2 and 2.4-liter "ST" cars. They simply had much better chassis engineering and were able to do things that the Rene-Bonnet then the MATRA were simply unable to match. The same applies to the Porsche that are also REAR-engine and so far, no MID-engine road Porsche (including the Cayman) is able to approach the performance of a 996 with the same motorization.
The Djets simply were NOT to the level of the Alpines even with equal motors. Their suspension design was a bit antiquated especially at the front, compared to the simple but very effective design of the Alpine. It is that simple. One can be in love with the Djet basic design and body shape and all that but at the end of the day, a simple drive in a stock Djet and a stock Alpine fitted with the same motor based on the R8 is eye-opening. I like both but know which one to have.
The "610", an interesting exercise, was but a comma in an otherwise great racing era that delivered superb cars from the weapon manufacturer. It is too bad that Renault torpedoed MATRA's car business with the failed bizarre designs of the egocentric Patric Le Quement, and it is too bad that Renault also killed the Alpine company after committing management blunder after blunder in what to do with Dieppe.
The great days are definitely in the past...

[dretceterini]

Having owned both a Matra-Bonnet Jet with the 1300 and a Renault Alpine with a 1300, I think the Renault, as T54 states, is a much better all around car.

I believe that the Rene Bonnet/Matra-Bonnet/Matra D-Jets and Jets could have been better than the Renault, with proper development and influx of money however. The Rene Bonnet Jets and Aerojets did pretty well at Le Mans in the early 60s.

Another factor was the very small number of Rene Bonnet/Matra-Bonnet/Mata D-Jet, Jet and Aerojet cars made; a total of around 1500 cars including all variations....or less that 1/10th the number of Renault Alpines and "Spanish" Alpines.

As far as I am aware, only 7 Matra Jets were built with the 1600 Renault motor, plus the one-off 610 with the Lotus 1600 motor...

[AMICALEMANS]

Alpine vs matra-bonnet on a saxon website ! Great

[dretceterini]

Originally posted by AMICALEMANS
Alpine vs matra-bonnet on a saxon website ! Great

link please...

[starlet]

Here

[T54]

[bradbury west]

Originally posted by Lotus11Register
Very interesting. Somewhere it is written that Len Terry designed the chassis for the original Bonnet Djet, but it wasn't an authoritative source.

The design to which you perhaps refer is Len's design for Alpine during 1962, intended as a small capacity le Mans car. At the time Len was freelance and was commissioned to draw up the chassis only, and was directed to use as many proprietary Renault components dictated by Alpine. For convenience and suitability it was based very much on Len's mk 6 car, with horizontal crossover springs, along with a lay-flat radiator. It was a chassis only commission, almost done entirely by post and telephone, as the body was to be done by Alpine's own aerodynamicist.

The car was not built as designed, as Bernard Boyer reworked it substantially, clearly lacking Len's delicacy of touch and engineering prowess. Until reworked again back to something like LT's basic design, the car had shown little success. In conversations with Len Terry , I get the impression that Alpine were trying to get an insight into Lotus/Chapman/Terry designs etc. perhaps on the cheap.

Slightlt O/T, The whole thing was almost done by post, as Alpine did their own development, and shortly after that LT was invited by ACBC back to Lotus as chief designer which saw LT produce the Indy 38, once he had made the best of a bad job rectifying the flaws of the original 30, which ACBC admitted was not a success, as he had conceded with LT's views about the need to re-engineer the suspension of the 17 3 or 4 years before.
At least Len got paid for the Alpine design which had come at a particularly fortuitous time for him.
Roger Lund.

[Gerard Gamand]

Amicalemans,

This sort of things sound pretty well for french ears...

[Todd]

Originally posted by T54
The same applies to the Porsche that are also REAR-engine and so far, no MID-engine road Porsche (including the Cayman) is able to approach the performance of a 996 with the same motorization.

On the other hand, 914/6s had to be fitted with much lower tune engines than their contemporary 911s to keep them from ending the competitive careers of the more expensive rear engined cars.

[Lotus11Register]

Originally posted by bradbury west

The design to which you perhaps refer is Len's design for Alpine during 1962

Yes, this must have been it. Thanks for the correction. This chassis design apparently grew into the A210.

(Glad our French friends are enjoying this. Thirty-five years ago if an American bank had been able to find either a Matra or an Alpine in their car value guide and had loaned me money for one of these Batmobiles I wouldn't have switched to a Lotus .)

Perhaps someday when the world can afford to resurface the Nurburgring, fill the zoos with cloned mammoths, and mass-produce series-1 Elites that run on cooking oil, it can also bring back some of these French beauties for any extra space in the garage.

[Bonde]

FWIW, there'a an Aerodjet for sale here

[T54]

Nice car, crazy price...

[dretceterini]

Originally posted by Bonde
FWIW, there'a an Aerodjet for sale here

Price is way too high. I would say it's a $100,000 US car...

[Tarpon]

Matra Jets were built with the 1600 Renault motor,


Never :the last JET 6 was built with 1300 G ,production stopped during 1967 when the 530 appeared.The last stock was sold in 1968 .The first Alpine 1600 appeared end 1971 ,the last jEt was yet in the memories . I have nothing again vintage races nor vintage drivers but you must consider the performances of each car at the moment they were built and sold ,not forty years ago .The development of each cars was made with the material that existed at that moment .

It is always possible to put a more powerful Renault engine in these cars;we have a lot of Renault4cv today with R5 alpine turbo and some 2 liters ,but nobody will call this a 4 cv!For that reason we cannot say A Matra JET 1600 is not a Matra,just a "preparation" work .

[T54]

Matra Jets were built with the 1600 Renault motor...

I believe that no one here said they had been... However put a 1300 A110 VS a 1300 Djet on any terrain and see what will happen. And add a little rain to make it more interesting.

[fausto]

I saw a Djet only once, still have the impression that, compared to the Alpine A110, it has a narrower track. Can anyone confirm this? If it's so could it be that the narrow track is one of the reasons why the mid-engined Djet is lacking in the handling department compared to the rear-engined A110...

[T54]

We used to call the Djets "girls cars". They were narrow and high-strung. Frankly and compared to the DB-Panhard berlinettes, the Djet was quite a disappointment from Rene Bonnet, especially when one looked at the A108 and A110 of Jean Redele who appeared so much the business.
And history shows that they were.

[Tarpon]

No,it was Ford GT 40 called "girls cars" ,Cobra were "monkey cars" .But as you know,at Le mans we have a lot of imagination.

[Todd]

Good heavens. Today, we have complete pansies complaining that the stability control of their 'sports sedans' doesn't reassure them enough.

[T54]

I guess the girls drive the SUV's with "AMG" plastered all over the rear deck nowadays...

No,it was Ford GT 40 called "girls cars"

???? That's the first I heard of that, and I was there the whole time the GT40's and later MKII's and MKIV's ran, this since the very first April practice session in 1964.

[dretceterini]

Originally posted by T54

I believe that no one here said they had been... However put a 1300 A110 VS a 1300 Djet on any terrain and see what will happen. And add a little rain to make it more interesting.

The information I have says that Matra DID build 7 cars with the 1600cc Renault motor (don't know WHICH version of the 1600cc motor). There was one in Glendale, California about 20 years ago, at the shop of a Frenchman who sold DB and Renault parts, and still had some D-jet and Jet parts, on San Fernando Road.