30 replies to this topic

[HUY]

I'm sure you have noticed that the on-screen telemetry that comes up during F1 coverage shows that the driver is turning with full braking. Sometimes you can see the driver has full lock on the wheel and it still shows full braking. Is that possible on an F1 car or is it a glitch of the way FOM receives or calculates their telemetry data?

[Dudley]

So long as the grip is available there's no physical reason why you can't turn under full braking.

[Ben]

Originally posted by Dudley
So long as the grip is available there's no physical reason why you can't turn under full braking.

Really? If you're using all the grip you have to brake you won't be able to turn.

Ben

[djellison]

Well- the on screen graphics seem to lag slightly - they're not 100% accurate and nor are they 100% in sync with the on screen footage.

HOWEVER - steering and braking at the same time is all about using the friction circle.

http://forums.autosp...?threadid=92891 discusses it

Essentially - yes - if you're braking flat out then the tyre is giving you all the grip that it can longitudinally - but it can still provide some laterally as well.

Doug

[karlth]

Originally posted by HUY
I'm sure you have noticed that the on-screen telemetry that comes up during F1 coverage shows that the driver is turning with full braking. Sometimes you can see the driver has full lock on the wheel and it still shows full braking. Is that possible on an F1 car or is it a glitch of the way FOM receives or calculates their telemetry data?

It is called Trail braking.

Instead of releasing the brakes before turning the driver released the brakes slowly into the turn, all the way to the apex of the corner. Nigel Mansell was one of the better known trail brakers.

Another reason for using the brakes in turns is to stabilize the car in high speed corners.

[wingwalker]

i noticed that sometimes the break bias changes when the drivers are obviously busy with turning the car so i guess this delayed.

[karlth]

Originally posted by wingwalker
i noticed that sometimes the break bias changes when the drivers are obviously busy with turning the car so i guess this delayed.

Where is brake bias displayed somewhere?

I thought it was only Throttle, Brakes and TC?

[HUY]

Sometimes they show the brake bias as well, but not on the screen I'm referring to.

I know all about trail braking and how essential it is to go fast, but I was wondering how feasible is it to turn full-lock with full braking at the same time. It seems impossible to me, I think if you tried to do that the wheels would lock and you would still turn but your time would be screwed.

[karlth]

Originally posted by HUY
Sometimes they show the brake bias as well, but not on the screen I'm referring to.

Ok, I've never seen it in the TV broadcast.

I know all about trail braking and how essential it is to go fast, but I was wondering how feasible is it to turn full-lock with full braking at the same time. It seems impossible to me, I think if you tried to do that the wheels would lock and you would still turn but your time would be screwed.

Full lock with full braking would probably cause a spin.

Full lock with partial braking is normal, as is partial lock with full braking.

[D A]

I think the graphics only can tell if the driver is braking or not, it doesn't know how hard the driver brakes, or how far the pedal is pressed.

[karlth]

Originally posted by D A
I think the graphics only can tell if the driver is braking or not, it doesn't know how hard the driver brakes, or how far the pedal is pressed.

I think it does show the amount of braking done. At least in the past it has.

[RTX]

It shows the braking correctly, people just underestimate the grip the cars have and how hard you can use the brakes.

[jb_128]

Originally posted by D A
I think the graphics only can tell if the driver is braking or not, it doesn't know how hard the driver brakes, or how far the pedal is pressed.

Correct, the TV overlay is on/off. In reality the driver is of course releasing some pressure when he turns.

[RTX]

Originally posted by jb_128


Correct, the TV overlay is on/off. In reality the driver is of course releasing some pressure when he turns.

its not and off, the throttle is clearly not so I dont see why the brakes would be.

[karlth]

Originally posted by jb_128


Correct, the TV overlay is on/off. In reality the driver is of course releasing some pressure when he turns.

Correct. The overlay is just on/off for the Brakes. Gradual for the throttle.

[pingu666]

the cars have massive grip, this isnt grand prix legends . modern f1 cars arent actully a whole lot faster in a straight line than those of 67 surprisingly

[HUY]

How do we know the brakes are just on/off?

[Henrik B]

This thread is worhtless without screenshots.

But yes, from memory I think that the brake graphic is gradual. But I wouldn't trust that at all, it frequently shows the revs overstepping the rev limit.

But added to that, theoretically if there is enough grip it's no problem braking fully and turning at the same time.

[simpson]

Originally posted by djellison
Well- the on screen graphics seem to lag slightly - they're not 100% accurate and nor are they 100% in sync with the on screen footage.

I don't know how out of sync the telemetry is but it's all suspect, I'd say.

It's always bothered me that the on-board video is very much out of sync with the sound. It's quite obvious when the engine is at full throttle to about 10 meters before the apex, then doesn't accelerate until about half a second after the apex. When I first saw that, I wondered how the drivers could be so bad, but it's the out of sync sound.

How could they be showing this footage with sound when it's so off? Surely the people putting those things together have the technical savvy to do it better.

[karlth]

Originally posted by HUY
How do we know the brakes are just on/off?

The TV telemetry shown is obviously just on off. I watched a whole lap of De la Rosa vs Schumacher at the Hungaroring and the Brake display was never partial.

[RSNS]

I thought the 'telemetry' is based on sound coming from the car? Am I wrong? Surely it does not come from the teams themselves?

[HUY]

Originally posted by karlth


The TV telemetry shown is obviously just on off. I watched a whole lap of De la Rosa vs Schumacher at the Hungaroring and the Brake display was never partial.

That's pretty old, the current overlay shows partial braking, too.

[karlth]

Originally posted by HUY


That's pretty old, the current overlay shows partial braking, too.

Ok. That video was from 2006.

So it is partial this season?

[djellison]

On the plus side, at least we usually get the right sound with an onboard camera nowadays. So many times in the past you'd have car A's onboard visuals, and car B's onboard sound- very off putting.

Doug

[Ben]

Originally posted by pingu666
the cars have massive grip, this isnt grand prix legends . modern f1 cars arent actully a whole lot faster in a straight line than those of 67 surprisingly

It's only surprising if you don't understand the physics. You gain that much from adding downforce to improve corner speeds that a huge amount of drag is accepted at most tracks.

Whatever the graphics say, if you're braking at the friction limit you won't be able to turn. Any significant cornering will be accompanied by a drop in braking.

Ben

[Dudley]

Originally posted by Ben


Really? If you're using all the grip you have to brake you won't be able to turn.

Ben

That assumes your brakes are powerful enough to use all the grip you have under those circumstances.

It would be equally valid to suggest any significent turning would involve a drop in acceleration too but often that's not true either.

[HUY]

Originally posted by karlth


Ok. That video was from 2006.

So it is partial this season?

Yes it is partial this season, I was searching youtube to find some examples but FOM keeps pulling the videos. I hope someone can find a video with the telemetry overlay.

So the telemetry overlay is inferred from the sound? Are we certain about that?

What about the brake bias then? I don't think you can get that from the sound, too. One could think that information like the brake bias should be kept confidential within the team as the effect it has on the car is similar to the weight balance, which was a central point of the espionage scandal.

[almart]

Originally posted by HUY
I'm sure you have noticed that the on-screen telemetry that comes up during F1 coverage shows that the driver is turning with full braking. Sometimes you can see the driver has full lock on the wheel and it still shows full braking. Is that possible on an F1 car or is it a glitch of the way FOM receives or calculates their telemetry data?

marvels of left foot braking.

[pingu666]

think sound that was used for engine revs- was fairly acurate too aprently

[Frozen]

This year's live telemetry does not work correctly for brakes!

Never ever this season I saw any partial braking in that braking representation, it's all or nothing, which is definately not true in racing not even in F1.
I think the problem is that if that software detects a small brake input it shows on screen a 100% braking, that's why you see full braking even when they are close to or in the apex. While the throttle has no problems and show the bar increasing or decreasing smoothly which already shows that TC it's not at full config because drivers need a little bit of powerslide to help turn the car from apex to post-apex, and that's why they cannot floor the throttle in some corners because they spin too.


See ya.

[HUY]

I'm sure I have seen less than 100% braking on the telemetry this season.