2930 replies to this topic

[nikolaic]

Would Lewis really gain any satisfaction from winning the title at the court of appeal. Kimi has won the most races and had the most fastest laps and lets no forget 2 mechanical retirements to Lewis' none so deserves the title more.

I think it would be a very hollow victory and one that would be very hard to explain to the man down the pub. It is like Chelsea beating Arsenal 4-3 and then the week later they change the result to 3-4 in Arsenal's favour!

After the season we have had it would be commercial suicide for F1 if anything came of this. McLaren should wake up to this, lick their wounds and prove everyone wrong next season.

[LukeM]

Mclaren appealing after the race was no surprise, they are utter ****

[Rinehart]

Originally posted by nikolaic
Would Lewis really gain any satisfaction from winning the title at the court of appeal. Kimi has won the most races and had the most fastest laps and lets no forget 2 mechanical retirements to Lewis' none so deserves the title more.

I think it would be a very hollow victory and one that would be very hard to explain to the man down the pub. It is like Chelsea beating Arsenal 4-3 and then the week later they change the result to 3-4 in Arsenal's favour!

After the season we have had it would be commercial suicide for F1 if anything came of this. McLaren should wake up to this, lick their wounds and prove everyone wrong next season.

I doubt even Hamilton is bothered now, but he's not going to turn it down if other cars are disqualified. Why would he? Might as well not be a sportsman. 'Oh, I know I'll give up a deserving championship just to shut up a few forumers for 5 minutes...!'

[tidytracks]

I think this probably deserves to be merged with another thread, but to answer your question, nothing about this season surprises me anymore.

Seriously, they could give it to Scott Speed as recompense for being punched by his team-boss and I wouldn't even bat an eyelid.

[nikolaic]

Problem is a Hamilton title will now leave the country completely flat, I cant see them dancing in the streets over it.

I would not blame Kimi for quiting the sport if he looses his title and F1 would be much poorer for it.

He and Alonso are the real characters of the sport today. Hamilton is just a corporate clone.

[Tuxy]

Honestly, I don't want Lewis to win this year. He's such a great talent, he's better off if he avoids winning the title this way. Plus bringing the crown to McLaren would further taint the championship. Atleast this way, honour has been restored but Lewis can still walk with his head high. It's not like he won't be fighting for it next year.

[Apocalypse]

Useless speculation. Whatever happens to McLaren's appeal... it won't affect the WDC.

[Schumeister]

This just further goes to prove that Mclaren and there leader Ron Dennis do not have one shred of integrity left (If they ever had any in the first place)

You've lost the championships through sheer bad management of the team, be it through not knowing that key members of your team were helping themselves to Ferrari interlectual property or the fact that you let both your drivers behave like school children.

The list of rule breaches you have made must be one of the highest in the history of the sport over one season.

You have reeped what you have sown

[DEVO]

Ferrari who welcomed a court discission to settle the WCC are now faced with losing the WDC via the same system... the irony.

Anyway, let's hope the FIA can come up with something that doesn't take away the WDC from Kimi and at the same time doesn't insult the majority of F1 fans intelligence.

[GVera]

McLaren HAVE to appeal because it could mean a difference in the money earned by the team also.
With yesterdays results Ferrari tops the WCC also, 204 to 203 of McLaren (remember McL lost 15 points in Hungary).

Even if the Williams and BMW's drivers keep their points, if they take out the constructors points from those teams, McL would top Ferrari in the 'virtual' WCC championship.

As McLaren can deduce the 'virtual' TV earnings from the 100 mill. fine, the disqualification of the Williams and BMW means lots of money to McLaren.

[tidytracks]

Sorry to bring this to the attention of the ferrari fanboys, but I believe it was Luca di Montezemolo who first said this season that he had no qualms about winning the championship in the courts.

As far as I can see, this is simply McLaren playing the game upon the new pitch laid by the politicking of this season, and the "win at all costs" attitude of Ferrari.

[lukywill]

it´s a shame from the mclaren team. not only they lose on the track but will lose it also on press.

just let some time pass.

they did´nt complain the constructors points nullified after all.

[lukywill]

Originally posted by tidytracks
Sorry to bring this to the attention of the ferrari fanboys, but I believe it was Luca di Montezemolo who first said this season that he had no qualms about winning the championship in the courts.

As far as I can see, this is simply McLaren playing the game upon the new pitch laid by the politicking of this season, and the "win at all costs" attitude of Ferrari.

[pingu666]

just have 2 world champions

the bmw's and a williams where outside the rules, so macca have the right to question it, or any other team.

whats worse, a driver losing the wdc because of other cars being outside the rules, or a driver having the wdc because other cars where outside the rules?

pretty crappy either way, so just give them each a shiny pot and call them champions.

[tidytracks]

Originally posted by lukywill

An intelligent response as ever lukywill.

It's a simple enough conclusion to reach, born from simple strategic study. Read Sun Tsu, Clausewitz, it's simple, basic strategy. You fight a war with the weapons and techniques at your disposal, and if one of your enemies intends to use a certain method to win, you have to be ready to use the same tactics.

Ferrari can be in no position to complain about McLaren attempting to win through the courts, when Ferrari themselves have said they have no qualms in winning by the same means.

[silverado07]

Originally posted by DEVO
Ferrari who welcomed a court discission to settle the WCC are now faced with losing the WDC via the same system... the irony.

Exactly. Ferrari won the WCC in court and Macca will win the WDC in court!

[30ft penguin]

Originally posted by Apocalypse
Useless speculation. Whatever happens to McLaren's appeal... it won't affect the WDC.

Yup. Just have to point this out from the Di Montezemolo interview:

"The regulations say that even if some car gets disqualified, it doesn't mean that the points are automatically given to the others."

So even if McLaren manage to get these cars disqualified - it could very well mean that Hamilton stays on P7, and the points for P4,5,6 simply vanish.

[Ricardo F1]

I love how people still say bad management of the team cost them the titles . . . . and yet if we were here with Alonso or Hamilton winning because of them have a defacto number one in the team they'd be lynching them for being a one car team.

The appeal will fail, I can't for the life of me see why McLaren did it other than to appease sponsors.

[as65p]

The true, but still secret, plot is to now crown Lewis by disqualifying some cars, then after that present the FIA with evidence of Ferrari team orders (a local radio amateur shop accidentically decrypted Ferraris pit communications and then a caring employee phoned Woking immediately about it, in the interest of fair play and honesty). That, of course, makes Alonso champion. Almost everyone is happy, having been WDC in 2007.

Right now, they still have some difficulties with the last step - bringing poor Felipe into it. Most likely his Canada disqualification will be withdrawn and he'll be granted the necessary points from that.

A truly memorable season

[lukywill]

Originally posted by 30ft penguin


Yup. Just have to point this out from the Di Montezemolo interview:

"The regulations say that even if some car gets disqualified, it doesn't mean that the points are automatically given to the others."

So even if McLaren manage to get these cars disqualified - it could very well mean that Hamilton stays on P7, and the points for P4,5,6 simply vanish.

man you always post some crap when it favors ferrari.

[pUs]

Originally posted by tidytracks


Ferrari can be in no position to complain about McLaren attempting to win through the courts, when Ferrari themselves have said they have no qualms in winning by the same means.

Really? As far as I know, Ferrari haven't complained yet? Or have they?

Just because they have the right to appeal whatever they like, it doesn't mean I have to like it. I think it's disgusting and shameless, but that's just me.

[Dick_Dastardly]

Originally posted by LukeM
Mclaren appealing after the race was no surprise, they are utter ****

Grow up!! For FIA show some consistency in their inconsistent season, Williams and BMW should receive financial penalties and then let the matter rest. We all know what would happen on this BB by the Ferrari/Alonso fanatics if this had been the other way round and Mclaren had pulled a stunt like this. They'd all be screaming for dissolution of Mclaren, Hamilton & Ron Dennis banned from F1 forever and Anthony Hamilton taken out back and shot..........

[Cenotaph]

I'd really like to hear from Hamilton regarding this issue. I think it's important to know how he feels about it. I felt he put up with a lot of **** this year, to the point i would be happy if he won, provided Kimi couldn't do it. But if he felt okay about winning the title like this, that would certainly damage his reputation from my point of view.

[Josta]

Originally posted by 30ft penguin


Yup. Just have to point this out from the Di Montezemolo interview:

"The regulations say that even if some car gets disqualified, it doesn't mean that the points are automatically given to the others."

So even if McLaren manage to get these cars disqualified - it could very well mean that Hamilton stays on P7, and the points for P4,5,6 simply vanish.

He is wrong. That is the case in the WCC because if a team is DQ'd, they couldn't fairly distribute the points. In a race, however, if someone is DQ'd, the rest of the field move up and take the points. For instance, when Kubica got DQ'd for being underweight at Hungary, Massa got the 2 points and Michael got 1 point.

[tidytracks]

Originally posted by pUs


Really? As far as I know, Ferrari haven't complained yet? Or have they?

You're right, they haven't. Quite possibly because they realise the hypocrisy of doing so, having stated themselves that a win by any means is, apparently, OK.

Roll on 2008. I'm just sick of this season now.

[Mechanic]

How long might we have to wait before the FIA will act, either decide to reject McLaren's appeal outright or take the matter under consideration?

[freeloader]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
I love how people still say bad management of the team cost them the titles . . . . and yet if we were here with Alonso or Hamilton winning because of them have a defacto number one in the team they'd be lynching them for being a one car team.

The appeal will fail, I can't for the life of me see why McLaren did it other than to appease sponsors.

It's not the sponsors, it's the board.

RD is a minority shareholder, and as Chairman/CEO his is answerable to the board. If there is a possibility that another competitor(s) has broken the rules, and not been awarded a penalty that would improve the results of the company in some way, he will be duty bound to persue an appeal, if there are solid grounds to contest the decision.

The sporting factor will have been taken into consideration, just as it was after the WMSC ruling.

McLaren must feel they have a very stong case. However, the FIA are not likely to change their spots, and victory in this case is about as likely as Alonso driving a McLaren next season. Kimi's championship is safe.

[KLN]

hope its soon as my betting comp is sweating on adding up the points

[Red Rocket]

Mclaren appealing? Oh what a surprise. And what will they use? The 2 precedents one of which included Mika’s (Mclaren) fuel irregularity or how about David’s (Williams) and Michael’s (Benneton). What was the outcome? Drivers kept their points, teams lost theirs.

Having said this I am sure if tables were reversed Ferrari or another team would be doing the same.

[denthierry]

Originally posted by tidytracks


An intelligent response as ever lukywill.

It's a simple enough conclusion to reach, born from simple strategic study. Read Sun Tsu, Clausewitz, it's simple, basic strategy. You fight a war with the weapons and techniques at your disposal, and if one of your enemies intends to use a certain method to win, you have to be ready to use the same tactics.

Ferrari can be in no position to complain about McLaren attempting to win through the courts, when Ferrari themselves have said they have no qualms in winning by the same means.

Fully agree with you Tidy! So let's take away BMW & Williams' brazil points, or even take away all their constructor points, and punish the teams with heavy fines. But none of the drivers WDC points are taken away, and KR remains WDC, right?? I promise you no one at Ferrari will have any problems with your honest suggestion. Thanks & Goodbye !

[denthierry]

Originally posted by Mechanic
How long might we have to wait before the FIA will act, either decide to reject McLaren's appeal outright or take the matter under consideration?

till Max & Kimi are sober again i presume

[jamezp1]

It's interseting, i'm a Hamilton fan, but i dont want to see him win like this.

I hope nothing comes of this appeal and i dont think it will, but i cant help but get the impression that if there was another race after brazil the teams would have been penalised and raikonnen would still be behind hamilton in the championship going into the theoretical last race.

I can only think that McLaren believe that the temperature measurements are accurate which is why they are appealing. It's their own fault they lost the drivers title by keeping lewis out to long in china and not changing his gearbox in brazil even though they knew there may have been a problem.

[denthierry]

Originally posted by Cenotaph
I'd really like to hear from Hamilton regarding this issue. ... if he felt okay about winning the title like this, that would certainly damage his reputation from my point of view.

Only now?

[HansMoleman]

Originally posted by tidytracks
Sorry to bring this to the attention of the ferrari fanboys, but I believe it was Luca di Montezemolo who first said this season that he had no qualms about winning the championship in the courts.

As far as I can see, this is simply McLaren playing the game upon the new pitch laid by the politicking of this season, and the "win at all costs" attitude of Ferrari.

Even though your post was not addressed to me, I can't help it so here it goes: so do you really think that systematic corporate espionage and using a couple of degrees too cool fuel are comparable?

[denthierry]

Originally posted by silverado07


Exactly. Ferrari won the WCC in court and Macca will win the WDC in court!

er... may i point out to you that Ferrari won the WCC on the track as well!! Just add up the points like if the Maccas never got DQd, you'll see Ferrari still wins...

[denthierry]

Originally posted by DEVO
... Anyway, let's hope the FIA can come up with something that doesn't take away the WDC from Kimi and at the same time doesn't insult the majority of F1 fans intelligence.

... and at the same time doesn't insult the majority of F1 fans intelligence???

[tidytracks]

Originally posted by HansMoleman


Even though your post was not addressed to me, I can't help it so here it goes: so do you really think that systematic corporate espionage and using a couple of degrees too cool fuel are comparable?

That is by no means what I said.

I simply brought up a statement of fact, which is that Ferrari has said they see no problem with winning a championship through the courts.

For whatever reason, and I will agree that this whole thing is completely stupid, McLaren believe they have the possibility of taking the mandate laid down by Ferrari with their approval of a championship win by judiciary, and using it to their advantage.

I agree with almost every post here, that I can see of no way in which a positive result for McLaren is a just outcome for the championship.

However the lines have been drawn earlier in the season, such that to win a title in a court rather than on a track, is now seen as a noble manner by which to achieve "glory."

[Go_Scotty_Go!]

Originally posted by tidytracks
However the lines have been drawn earlier in the season, such that to win a title in a court rather than on a track, is now seen as a noble manner by which to achieve "glory."

Ferrari is the villain?

It's almost like Mclaren and its supporters think that Ronspeak is an accepted form of communication now...love the latest release from old Ron...

The "internet" caused problems for Mclaren and the "gearbox" didn't cause any pressure...

Nevermind that Mclaren were caught cheating and that Lewis beached his car in China - and ran it off the road in Brazil....

It was the "internet".

[Schumeister]

Originally posted by tidytracks


That is by no means what I said.

I simply brought up a statement of fact, which is that Ferrari has said they see no problem with winning a championship through the courts.

For whatever reason, and I will agree that this whole thing is completely stupid, McLaren believe they have the possibility of taking the mandate laid down by Ferrari with their approval of a championship win by judiciary, and using it to their advantage.

I agree with almost every post here, that I can see of no way in which a positive result for McLaren is a just outcome for the championship.

However the lines have been drawn earlier in the season, such that to win a title in a court rather than on a track, is now seen as a noble manner by which to achieve "glory."

I think you are puuting your own spin on the reason Ferrari (Luca) stated he would accept a win through the courts. It was beacause Mclaren had been found in breach of the regulations - 'Guilty' - and were not punished.

At present BMW and Williams have not been punished as the evidence is not substantial enough to prove they ran the fuel temp outside of the regulations, hence there has been no regulatory breach.
By appealing Mclaren are trying to overturn the 'innocent' verdict into a 'guilty' verdict. They then may not be happy with the punishment handed out and may well appeal that as well.

I think you will agree two different set of circumstances.

[tifosi]

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
I love how people still say bad management of the team cost them the titles . . . . and yet if we were here with Alonso or Hamilton winning because of them have a defacto number one in the team they'd be lynching them for being a one car team.

I think most people are talking about how the McLaren driver's seem to have the maturity level of your average 4th grader, not who gets favored. As the "responsible adult" in the situation, Ron was pretty pathetic in his dealing with these two kids.

[tifosi]

Originally posted by Mechanic
How long might we have to wait before the FIA will act, either decide to reject McLaren's appeal outright or take the matter under consideration?

I think they are still polling to see which decision would be most popular. F1 now sinks below profesional wrestling.

[Buttoneer]

Originally posted by Red Rocket
Mclaren appealing? Oh what a surprise. And what will they use? The 2 precedents one of which included Mika’s (Mclaren) fuel irregularity or how about David’s (Williams) and Michael’s (Benneton). What was the outcome? Drivers kept their points, teams lost theirs.

These fuel irregularities were not the same at all. All that happened is that they gave the FIA a legal fuel sample at the start which differed from the legal fuel sample they gave at the end. The fact that the two were different is what created the illegality not the intrinsic calorific value or properties of the fuel itself.

Or at least, the fuel experts could not agree that the different fuel sample was illegal.

Not that i disagree with your final conclusion - to my mind a constructor point ban would be the right result. What is most definitely a wrong result is for the stewards to do nothing. On the other hand, in 2004 Williams and Toyota were both disqualified for having brake ducts with a legal opening size, but placed 1 illegal centimetre out of line. No performance advantage claimed by any party, and yet the drivers and teams were banned.

There is no clear precedent on this point at all.

[David M. Kane]

I sure wouldn't want to "inherit" the title. To me it would be tainted and of little value. Having said that I think Moseley's remarks about Ferrari versus the World were utterely over the top.

[Buttoneer]

Originally posted by denthierry


er... may i point out to you that Ferrari won the WCC on the track as well!! Just add up the points like if the Maccas never got DQd, you'll see Ferrari still wins...

If this appeal is successful, they would 'win' both.

[Gilles4Ever]

Originally posted by Buttoneer

If this appeal is successful, they would 'win' both.

Not necessarily - there is no guarantee Hamilton will be promoted from 7th

"The stewards of the meeting shall declare the resulting amendment in the placings and awards, and they shall decide whether the next competitor should be moved up in the classification."

[tidytracks]

Originally posted by Buttoneer

These fuel irregularities were not the same at all. All that happened is that they gave the FIA a legal fuel sample at the start which differed from the legal fuel sample they gave at the end. The fact that the two were different is what created the illegality not the intrinsic calorific value or properties of the fuel itself.

Or at least, the fuel experts could not agree that the different fuel sample was illegal.

Not that i disagree with your final conclusion - to my mind a constructor point ban would be the right result. What is most definitely a wrong result is for the stewards to do nothing. On the other hand, in 2004 Williams and Toyota were both disqualified for having brake ducts with a legal opening size, but placed 1 illegal centimetre out of line. No performance advantage claimed by any party, and yet the drivers and teams were banned.

There is no clear precedent on this point at all.

Spot on

[peejay]

I see that the majority of opinion here is against McLaren appealing, but I really don't understand why.

Are people saying that if rules are broken, then drivers/teams shouldn't be found guilty, because that would be bad for the sport? But wouldn't it be bad for the sport if the rules WEREN'T enforced?

I can see there's a debate as to whether any rules were broken, and that if they were broken what the penalty should be - but some people seem to be saying that NOT enforcing rules would be intrinsically better than enforcing them.

How can that be right?

Similarly, how would any championship result be devalued if it was the result of rules being enforced? Isn't the opposite true? Any championship result that happened because rules were NOT enforced would be devalued, surely?

[Owen]

I would vote for some kind of penalty to Williams and BMW but no change to the WDC result. As I don't want Lewis to win it like that. I want him to win on the track. Which he will. Next year. Maybe.

[ademm]

If McLaren appeal and win and they touch WDC points, Ferrari would appeal the SpyGate decison , since in both occasions drivers gained advantages.

Kimi is the World Champion. Get used to it.

[Buttoneer]

Originally posted by Gilles4Ever


Not necessarily - there is no guarantee Hamilton will be promoted from 7th

"The stewards of the meeting shall declare the resulting amendment in the placings and awards, and they shall decide whether the next competitor should be moved up in the classification."

Then the appeal would not have been successful, would it?