3792 replies to this topic

[karlth]

The McLaren Mercedes racecar for the 2008 F1 season.

Ten years ago the Mp4-13 was unleashed onto the Formula 1 world as one of the more dominant cars in modern F1 history. Mika Hakkinen drove it to the 1998 WDC and the team won the WCC.

Hopefully history will be repeated.

[lukywill]

the fia will ensure that it is a flop.

[karlth]

Tim Goss is the Chief Engineer for the MP4-23. Unfortunately he was also the Chief engineer of the dead-slow MP4-21.

Predicted drivers: Lewis Hamilton and Pedro de la Rosa.

[Zoe]

Originally posted by karlth
The McLaren Mercedes racecar for the 2008 F1 season.

Ten years ago the Mp4-13 was unleashed onto the Formula 1 world as one of the more dominant cars in modern F1 history. Mika Hakkinen drove it to the 1998 WDC and the team won the WCC.

Hopefully history will be repeated.

I think it is unlikely that Mika Hakkinen will ever be an F1 world champion again ;)

Zoe

[fillern]

Originally posted by karlth
The McLaren Mercedes racecar for the 2008 F1 season.

Ten years ago the Mp4-13 was unleashed onto the Formula 1 world as one of the more dominant cars in modern F1 history. Mika Hakkinen drove it to the 1998 WDC and the team won the WCC.

Hopefully history will be repeated.

...I'm not sure if I want history to repeat a season with a dominant car like that (Think both Mp4-23's lapping the entire field - how exiting is that?). I'm more in for 3 or 4 backmarker teams getting competitive with the elite.

[vsubravet]

Originally posted by karlth
Tim Goss is the Chief Engineer for the MP4-23. Unfortunately he was also the Chief engineer of the dead-slow MP4-21.

Predicted drivers: Lewis Hamilton and Pedro de la Rosa.

Yes, Tim Goss hasn't had the success that Pat Fry has (2005 & 2007). Hopefully, he will deliver better results this time around. I'm pretty sure it is going to be an evolution of the MP4-22; they are not going to go down the MP4-18 revolutionary style. And I do believe that they have stepped up a gear on the reliability front. They just need to unlock a bit more pace from the car.
'karlth', nice of you to start the thread for the MP4-23

[Hacklerf]

Should Mclarens new car be called the F2008-23?

[lukywill]

Originally posted by Hacklerf
Should Mclarens new car be called the F2008-23?

and 24.

[Suntrek]

Considering the every-other-year trend McLaren has been following of lately (odd years - good car, even years - not so good car) the car ought to be a dog.

We'll see.

[vsubravet]

Originally posted by Hacklerf
Should Mclarens new car be called the F2008-23?

That's one reason why I would like the FIA to complete the verification of the MP4-23 right fom its DNA. Hopefully that should be sooner than later and Mac can concentrate on the car rather than trying to defend every accusation that comes across their way.

[karlth]

Originally posted by Hacklerf
Should Mclarens new car be called the F2008-23?

Well next year the F2008 will be running a McLaren component.

Hopefully they won't gain anything from it.

[Lifew12]

Originally posted by karlth


Well next year the F2008 will be running a McLaren component.

Hopefully they won't gain anything from it.

The f2007 runs Mclaren components - MES supplies every team with something already....

[karlth]

Originally posted by Lifew12


The f2007 runs Mclaren components - MES supplies every team with something already....

It does? I had no idea.

[Lifew12]

Originally posted by karlth


It does? I had no idea.

According to MES's 2007 publicity blurb in, among other things, 'Who Works in F1' it does - they say they supply 'every F1 team'.

What with, naturally, is not specified! MES produces all manner of sensors, electronic control units and stuff such as alternators and ignition coils, as well as data analysis systems.

[Red ITC]

The StepneyTronic® High Bandwidth Remote Data Acquisition Package.

Codenamed "Project Boomerang" this system is available to lease for just $100,000,000 per season.

Six Tenths Guaranteed.

Documentation also available in Spanish.

[DavidR]

Originally posted by karlth
[B]Ten years ago the Mp4-13 was unleashed onto the Formula 1 world as one of the more dominant cars in modern F1 history. Mika Hakkinen drove it to the 1998 WDC and the team won the WCC.[B]

Despite having "one of the more dominant cars in modern F1 history" he only just beat Michael Schumacher to the title. Michael Schumacher, phenomenal.

[Majarvis]

Originally posted by Lifew12


The f2007 runs Mclaren components - MES supplies every team with something already....

Dead wrong.

Ferrari uses Magnetti Marelli engine management software, not McLaren Electronic Systems.

[Jhope]

Only next season with the MES be incorporated into all the cars.

BTW, regardless of what Pat Head has said, I still think Nico is going to Macca.

[longhornx]

Originally posted by Majarvis

Dead wrong.

Ferrari uses Magnetti Marelli engine management software, not McLaren Electronic Systems.

Every team will use MES from 2008

[Tenmantaylor]

Whatever happens, the money lost in spygate and the resources sapped by the MP4-23 FIA inspection will ultimately make McLaren less competetive in 2008.

Job done Max Mosley.

[DavidR]

Originally posted by Tenmantaylor
Whatever happens, the money lost in spygate and the resources sapped by the MP4-23 FIA inspection will ultimately make McLaren less competetive in 2008.

Job done Max Mosley.

Not at all, Ron Dennis has already said so. So quit trying to prepare your excuses so soon.

[Red Rocket]

Originally posted by karlth
The McLaren Mercedes racecar for the 2008 F1 season.

Ten years ago the Mp4-13 was unleashed onto the Formula 1 world as one of the more dominant cars in modern F1 history. Mika Hakkinen drove it to the 1998 WDC and the team won the WCC.

Hopefully history will be repeated.

Why have Mclaren received more Ferrari plans?

[Lifew12]

Originally posted by Majarvis

Dead wrong.

Ferrari uses Magnetti Marelli engine management software, not McLaren Electronic Systems.

If you read the posts properly, you'll see that nowhere has anyone specified what MES components the F2007 uses, hence to assume it is engine management software is not the case; MES supply something, be it sensors, or whatever, to every Formula One team. They have done for a number of years.

[Owen]

Originally posted by vsubravet


That's one reason why I would like the FIA to complete the verification of the MP4-23 right fom its DNA. Hopefully that should be sooner than later and Mac can concentrate on the car rather than trying to defend every accusation that comes across their way.

Yes, let's get this IP issue sorted early on and get back to normal business (as well as confirming the driver situation soon). Next year is, in some ways, a rebuilding year for Mclaren. Rebuilding the integrity of the team and hopefully creating more stability after a year of unnecessary turmoil. I hope the sting of defeat has stirred yet more effort and commitment from the boys at Mclaren, good luck!!

[ingegnere]

Have they fired Coughlan yet? Or are they waiting for him to finish reading the 780 pages?

[karlth]

Spoke to a non F1 driver this weekend who's pretty close to Wurz and he quoted the former McLaren tester saying the McLaren simulator being leagues ahead of the competition.

Having watched the Williams simulator the McLaren one must be pretty impressive to top that one. It seems that one of the things which sets it apart is its ability to take external data(track work/engine testbenches/aerodynamic changes/suspension design/etc) and integrate it immediately into the simulated car.

[pUs]

Originally posted by karlth
The McLaren Mercedes racecar for the 2008 F1 season.

Ten years ago the Mp4-13 was unleashed onto the Formula 1 world as one of the more dominant cars in modern F1 history.

Nice one Karlth, you're finally making some sense after all these years. Perhaps it's time to rethink your Hungary 1998-revisited thread?;)

[karlth]

Originally posted by pUs
Nice one Karlth, you're finally making some sense after all these years. Perhaps it's time to rethink your Hungary 1998-revisited thread?;)

Hardly

The 13's dominance was during the start of the season, or until FIA banned the car's third pedal slashing its laptime by a second.

[HSJ]

I think most of it was down to Bstone really...

[karlth]

Originally posted by HSJ
I think most of it was down to Bstone really...

Considering the next Bridgestone team qualified almost 2 seconds behind and finished a lap behind it was not mostly down to the tyres.

[Big Block 8]

Originally posted by DavidR

Despite having "one of the more dominant cars in modern F1 history" he only just beat Michael Schumacher to the title. Michael Schumacher, phenomenal.

Well, before Suzuka, in comparison with Hakkinen, MS was credited worth something like 40-50 points due to reliability and other problems McLaren had, so the MP4-13's "dominance" was in the end more than a bit iffy.

[karlth]

I posted this several years ago about MP4-23's initial test:

Rui Pedro Mendes Salgueiro, 16th february 1998:

- McLaren: don't be mistaken by the ras.f1 slogan "test times don't
mean anything". Hakkinen did his very good time, straight out of the box
(before McLaren fiddled with setups), and with a reasonable amount of
fuel in the car. Autosport says that Hakkinen beat the best time for
1998 cars on the 2nd flying lap he did at Barcelona. By the 8th lap he
had beaten everyone by more than 1.2 seconds.

After that, (some of) the other teams panicked and started making
qualifying attempts to check how far was McLaren. Benetton and Tyrrel
got reasonable results (Fisico was only 0.07 slower than Hakkinen),
but the other teams were not very happy at the end of the tests.

Alas McLaren's massive superiority only lasted two races into the season.

[Big Block 8]

Originally posted by karlth

Alas McLaren's massive superiority only lasted two races into the season.

Cut the crap will you. That in the remaining races it broke down left and right and in the end wasn't even fast enough for poles does not mean a thing. It was dominant all the way, Schumacher always was and is head and shoulders above the rest, period. Why can't all people clearly remember such a simple baseline and just fit the facts into it in a proper, well-sorted-out fashion?

[Enkei]

Originally posted by karlth
I posted this several years ago about MP4-23's initial test:

Rui Pedro Mendes Salgueiro, 16th february 1998:

- McLaren: don't be mistaken by the ras.f1 slogan "test times don't
mean anything". Hakkinen did his very good time, straight out of the box
(before McLaren fiddled with setups), and with a reasonable amount of
fuel in the car. Autosport says that Hakkinen beat the best time for
1998 cars on the 2nd flying lap he did at Barcelona. By the 8th lap he
had beaten everyone by more than 1.2 seconds.

After that, (some of) the other teams panicked and started making
qualifying attempts to check how far was McLaren. Benetton and Tyrrel
got reasonable results (Fisico was only 0.07 slower than Hakkinen),
but the other teams were not very happy at the end of the tests.

Alas McLaren's massive superiority only lasted two races into the season.

Didn't certain things got banned by Ferrari/FIA demand?

[karlth]

Originally posted by Enkei


Didn't certain things got banned by Ferrari/FIA demand?

Yes.

[genespleen]

Hmmm...McLaren's M23 of 1973 took pole in its first race, and gave Hulme and Revson three wins that season. Next year, Emmo took it to the Driver's Championship. Twenty-threes are good for McLaren.

[Johny Bravo]

Originally posted by Enkei


Didn't certain things got banned by Ferrari/FIA demand?

Like spying, copying and redistributing stolen Ferrari IP? I can live with such a ban.

[Enkei]

Originally posted by Johny Bravo


Like spying, copying and redistributing stolen Ferrari IP? I can live with such a ban.

Why on earth are you bringing this up?
It has completely no relevance with the banning of McLaren's third pedal in 1998.

[Enkei]

Some extra information on the banning of the third pedal, which was officially declared legal by the FIA at the beginning of the season:

"Of the dozens of technologies banned by F1’s governing body through the years, McLaren’s rear brake pedal stands out as one of the most unjust bannings.

It was banned early in 1998 as McLaren made a stunningly dominant start to the year. Following a protest by Ferrari the system, that had previously been declared legal, was outlawed.

Many at the time suggested political motives were at work - and a desire to keep McLaren from getting too far ahead."

http://www.f1fanatic...ar-brake-pedal/

[HP]

Originally posted by Big Block 8


Cut the crap will you. That in the remaining races it broke down left and right and in the end wasn't even fast enough for poles does not mean a thing. It was dominant all the way, Schumacher always was and is head and shoulders above the rest, period. Why can't all people clearly remember such a simple baseline and just fit the facts into it in a proper, well-sorted-out fashion?

Naa, it's just that McLaren sucks. Since quite a few years they don't mange to build a championship winning car ;)

And for all the irony of the myth, it was Ron Dennis who said that they have to build a better car for their drivers than Ferrari does to be able to beat MS.

[HP]

Originally posted by Enkei
Some extra information on the banning of the third pedal, which was officially declared legal by the FIA at the beginning of the season:

"Of the dozens of technologies banned by F1’s governing body through the years, McLaren’s rear brake pedal stands out as one of the most unjust bannings.

It was banned early in 1998 as McLaren made a stunningly dominant start to the year. Following a protest by Ferrari the system, that had previously been declared legal, was outlawed.

Many at the time suggested political motives were at work - and a desire to keep McLaren from getting too far ahead."

http://www.f1fanatic...ar-brake-pedal/

Since when does Charlie Whiting approving a new development on a race car mean anything? He certainly doesn't have the last the word on this when a team protests. And as was pointed out above, without reliability problems, it should never have mattered at all.

[Owen]

Back to the topic: Excerpt from interview with Lewis:

Asked if he can clinch the title in 2008, Hamilton replied: "I believe I can, obviously, otherwise there's no point going into 2008.
"I think we're going to have a great car; we're pushing very, very hard. I'm going to be more experienced, I'm going to be pushing harder, making sure I'm fitter and even more determined than this year."

[Johny Bravo]

Originally posted by Owen
Back to the topic: Excerpt from interview with Lewis:

Asked if he can clinch the title in 2008, Hamilton replied: "I believe I can, obviously, otherwise there's no point going into 2008.
"I think we're going to have a great car; we're pushing very, very hard. I'm going to be more experienced, I'm going to be pushing harder, making sure I'm fitter and even more determined than this year."

Hopefully Lewis won't be pushing very, very hard the wrong buttons.;)

[Owen]

Originally posted by Johny Bravo


Hopefully Lewis won't be pushing very, very hard the wrong buttons.;)

Hilarious (not).

[Enkei]

Originally posted by HP
Since when does Charlie Whiting approving a new development on a race car mean anything? He certainly doesn't have the last the word on this when a team protests. And as was pointed out above, without reliability problems, it should never have mattered at all.

Well he is head of the FIA technical department isn't he? How can something which was declared fully legal be deemed illegal only 2 months later? Apparently Charlie Whiting approving developments doesn't mean anything indeed, but it should...

The reliability of the car wasn't all that good indeed, but if you loose speed you sacrifice some reliability in order to overcome the deficit.

[HP]

Originally posted by Enkei


Well he is head of the FIA technical department isn't he? How can something which was declared fully legal be deemed illegal only 2 months later? Apparently Charlie Whiting approving developments doesn't mean anything indeed, but it should...

It's seems his judgments are not fully binding. Which IMO can only be good. You don't want one person making all interpretations on new developments, when the rule books are not clear or even non existent on the matter.

And then it's good that rival teams can only appeal once they learn of a new development. If McLaren would have needed the FiA's and all teams approval to race that 3rd brake, then it would either have come down to nobody racing it at all, or rival teams would have stalled approval for so long until they were ready themselves.

I think we have to accept that new controversial developments might give an advantage for a few races only. Enjoy while it lasts!

[karlth]

I remember Newey saying that the 3rd pedal only worked in the hands (feet) of Hakkinen. His driving style complimented the extra pedal perfectly and was worth almost a second per lap.

[Big Block 8]

Originally posted by HP

And for all the irony of the myth, it was Ron Dennis who said that they have to build a better car for their drivers than Ferrari does to be able to beat MS.

Although good old Ron is known to be very adept in handling personal relationships with his drivers, IIRC for his credit he never said that - the essence of what he said was that (in a hypothetical situation) he would rather spend MS's salary into car development in order to achieve the same results of MS+car even with a lesser driver than MS (= MS's superiority, if any, was worth only a few million $ of extra development per year). Frank Williams often went along the same lines, although later on Frank openly joined the MS bandwagon, accompanied with also Damon Hill.

But Ron never said that he believed that MS in reality was a superior driver, although his statement could also be interpreted the way as you say, and was eagerly labelled as such by the press at the time. This or that, it was BS anyway, as soon after (or during, or before) that he was willing to hire MS regardless.

[ATM_Andy]

The Vodafone McLaren Mercedes MP4-23 car development will be well underway now. McLaren have several things to their advantage:

Firstly; The MES ECU, this is a reasonably simple system however 1 or 2 teams have had a few integration problems. McLaren is familiar with the coding involved with the ECU as they have been using a version of it for a while now. This means it will take them minimum time to introduce and thus they can concentrate on Mechanical and aero Development.

Secondly; The loss of TC will require the cars to put more of their efforts into mechanical grip, this is an area where McLaren has excelled at in the last few years. Loosing TC also means the centre of pressure of the car will have to move rearwards which plays to another of the teams strengths, their aero department. The McLaren Technology centre houses a undisclosed power of super computer similar to the BMW Sauber and AT&T Williams systems. This can run hugely complex CFD simulations and allows designers to hone there ideas before committing to wind tunnel testing.

Thirdly; Last year the former Michelin teams were behind in vital tyre knowledge in comparison to the Pre 2007 Bridgestone teams. It was decided that BS would not be obliged to provide setup data to the Michelin teams therefore they had to make sever premises and assumptions in their individual car designs. Some teams such as McLaren did very well at this where as others such as Renault did not do so well. This year however all of the ex Michelin teams have gained a significant working knowledge of the tyres. This give them more room to gain time compared to their pre 2007 Bridgestone team rivals.

The Vodafone McLaren Mercedes MP4-23 car development is being headed by Tim Goss, Tim has been working in Motorsport since 1986 after completing his post graduate studies at Imperial College, London. His first role within the sport was in the Motorsport section of Cosworth Engineering. In 1990 Tim, who was born 28th February 1963, joined McLaren Racing as a design engineer responsible for engine installation. During his time at McLaren Tim has taken on many roles including Project Leader for Systems, responsible for engine installation, Assistant Race Engineer to Mika Hakkinen, Chief Test Team Engineer; he was head of Vehicle Dynamics from 1998-2001 and became Chief Engineer – Powertrain in 2001. Tim's current role is Chief Engineer MP4-23 following on from his role these past two years as Chief Engineer MP4-21. He will now take on responsibility for the specification and development of the 2008 race car.

[karlth]

Nice list Andy but don't forget the simulator as another advantage.