55 replies to this topic

[Andre Acker]

Hi,

I went to Youtube to look for some Porsche 917 films.
I found something about a 917 (the # 25 long tail from the 1970 race) that was stollen a little after the "Le Mans" film was finished and hidden in France in a hut or something like that.
It remained desappeared for 30 or 35 years and it is considered the most original 917.
Now, is that true ?
Is it possible to hide a enormous car like that for so long time ?
That was a Porsche works car, how was it possible to steal it so easy ?
Didn't the owner look for it ?
Did Solar Production (the film maker) pay something to Porsche due to this ?
I do not remember to see any reference to these facts in the very detailed book "A French Kiss with Death".

Have a look at Youtube - Drive it ! Porsche 917 do filme Le Mans .

Any opinion about this ?

VBR.
André Acker.

[wsshores]

That story isn't true.
Here is the history of chassis 917-042:

http://962.com/regis...7-042/index.htm

[Andre Acker]

Hi wsshores,

Thanks for your help.

But did you see the Youtube film ?
Maybe an April fool ?

VBR.
André Acker.

[Andre Acker]

More, the page you mention talks about chassis 042 and the film shows chassis 024 !

André Acker.

[r.atlos]

Originally posted by Andre Acker
I found something about a 917 (the # 25 long tail from the 1970 race) that was stollen a little after the "Le Mans" film was finished and hidden in France in a hut or something like that. [...]

I cannot find any hint in this film that the car was stolen. At the beginning there is a phrase like "...was stored away ..." which may have led to this confusion.

Is 917-024 not the ex-Zitro car that was, indeed, in storage in France for quite some time ? I remember that there was also some confusion between 917-024 and 917-025 about their correct parentage.

[Andre Acker]

Well, my ears are not the same anymore, I must admit ...
And English sometimes is a little bit tricky to me .
Anyway, the film tells that the driver was Herbert Linge and according to "A French Kiss with Death" (page 284) "the Porsche factory agreed to let Solar use the #25 Porsche Salzburg long-tail 917LH for two weeks, free of charge, with the stipulation that the only person who would drive it was Herbert Linge".
And the Zitro car was sold to the Fittipaldis in 1972 (this, I remember very well), so it is not the same car.

I suspect it is really a false story ...

André Acker.

[f1steveuk]

While working as a researcher for Top Gear (in the good old days, Willie Woolard etc) Beki Adams was "writing" a book about stars and there cars. She made reference to Steve McQueen's 917.

Years later I was tlaking to Steve Wright, McQueen's mechanic and side kick (about an ex McQueen Excelsior board racer) and asked about the 917. He repeated the story Adam's had. McQueen had one, and after he died, when his car were brought out of storage, there was , and hasn't been since, any sign of the 917, but there was a space where it should have been.

[Gary C]

Perhaps Steve took it with him??

[sterling49]

Originally posted by Gary C
Perhaps Steve took it with him??

[figoni]

The story goes that 917K chassis #024 was put into storage post filming for the Le Mans movie and there it stayed, not forgetting they had little or no value in 1972/73 after 5 litre cars were banned

[CarlBauer]

This one?





The 917's only seem 'enormous'. They're actually quite small!

[mfd]

Originally posted by figoni The story goes that 917K chassis #024 was put into storage post filming for the Le Mans movie and there it stayed

You can find the story of Chassis #24 after Le Mans ( the movie ) here
http://www.porsche91...ranero.htm#BARN

[mfd]

Originally posted by Andre Acker and the Zitro car was sold to the Fittipaldis in 1972 (this, I remember very well), so it is not the same car

The Zitro car (#025) was sold at the end of 1971 to the Fittipaldi brothers. Then it changed hands & went to the Collier museum.
McQueen certainly loaned 917s for the film, with one car (#024) being leased to him by Siffert. I never heard of one being stolen.

[mfd]

Originally posted by Andre Acker
according to "A French Kiss with Death" (page 284) "the Porsche factory agreed to let Solar use the #25 Porsche Salzburg long-tail 917LH for two weeks, free of charge, with the stipulation that the only person who would drive it was Herbert Linge".

This car was then rebuilt for the 1971 race as the Silver Martini Longtail, #21 was driven by Elford & Larrouse.
So if you look at it this way the #25 1970 car has disappeared!

[Andre Acker]

Ok, I am reffering to what appears in that Youtube film.
It clearly gives the impression that the car is the 1970 # 25.

About the Fittipaldis car, it was shown in the Fittipaldi Motor Show, in Brasil, in the end of 1972, still painted as the Zitro car (white and blue). Then was raced, in December 72 or January 73, by Wilson Fittipaldi in 2 or 3 races in Interlagos (the car was painted yellow).

Maybe just the keys were from the # 25 car ...

And, yes, the 917 looks big but was not that enormous ...
The 917 LH looks much bigger !

VBR.
André Acker.

[Andre Acker]

According to "962.com" (or to the photos they show) chassis 004 AND 008 were both the #12 917L driven by Elford / Attwood in the 1969 Le Mans ...

[mfd]

Originally posted by Andre Acker
Ok, I am reffering to what appears in that Youtube film.
It clearly gives the impression that the car is the 1970 # 25.

Andre, regarding the Youtube clip, I can't get the sound, so I don't hear the words, but visually it does seem to feature the Gulf car, assumed to be 024 leased by Siffert to Solar & recently found in France. Added to this are the images from the workshop of Modena Motorsport (restoring 024) showing the frame of a K-tailed car...in the Wingrove book you can see the bare chassis of the longtail 042, which is different to a K.

It will always be difficult attributing numbers as they didn't seem as significant then as they do now. For example it's well known the factory re-chassied cars and then applied new numbers, as happened with many of the JWAE Gulf cars.

[Andre Acker]

Mike,

My opinion consider the fact that they show the car keys and a target with the inicials HL, saying that they refer to Herbert Linge, who, according to the mentionned book, was the only driver Porsche gave the permission to run the # 25 car.

But this is just my opinion.

VBR.
André Acker.

[Pedro 917]

According to my files, the Elford-Attwood Porsche 917 #12 was chassis 008. No mention of chassis 004.

[Andre Acker]

Thanks, Pedro !

VBR.
André Acker.

[Pedro 917]

About the 2001 barn find in the Paris suburbs of 917-024 : German magazine Motor Klassik (March 2002) had an article with pictures of the car as it was found. It carried number 65 and they still haven't found out where that came from. It was the home of the "Ratatouille" family that had eaten away most of the electrical wiring and more. It has some Jo Siffert Automobiles / Fribourg stickers on the rear body.
According to my files, chassis 024 ran only at the Le Mans preliminaries in 1970 by Redman and Hailwood when it was white. It has no race history and was used for the Le Mans movie with an engine loaned from Zuffenhausen. The engine returned after the filming, the car disappeared. Here are some pictures from the magazine, copyright Hardy Mutshler.

[mfd]

Originally posted by Andre Acker
Mike, my opinion consider the fact that they show the car keys and a target with the inicials HL, saying that they refer to Herbert Linge, who, according to the mentioned book, was the only driver Porsche gave the permission to run the # 25 car. But this is just my opinion.

Andre, I can see the point you're making, but if I can put it this way.
There is a saying attributed to some - "never let the truth get in the way of a good story"

[Andre Acker]

Pedro,

You are an encyclopaedia !!!!

Mike,

You are right and I think that the mistery (at least for me it was a mistery) is solved.

The only thing I can not understand is why Jo Siffert let this car in France ...
I can understand that the car value was not the same after FIA banned the 5L cars (as "figoni" pointed out)and this particular car had no motor. It was a rolling chassis.

Maybe he sold it to the farmer.
Or maybe the car was sold to Steve McQueen, who never took it home.

VBR.
André Acker.

[rhegra]

... could this be No. 24 on a very sad day?
http://www.josiffert...rie_open_12.php

[Pedro 917]

No, 024 disappeared after the filming of "Le Mans", Seppi's funeral was a year later.

[rhegra]

..yes I know, Pedro, but if you look at the paint scheme around the headlights and the plexi-cover of the headlights with it´s black edges (and especially the angular course at the outside corner of the left cover), there are some close similarities. And not all the paintings are the same at these spots at the Gulf-cars if you take a closer look. I don´t think also that the as very clever known businessman Siffert "forgot" his car in France. Otherwise: what car they used at the funeral in Fribourg? Let´s try to find an answer...
Best regards, Christian

[Rob Semmeling]

A 917 tucked away in a French barn for some 30 years...you couldn't make this stuff up, could you!?

This vaguely reminds me of one time I went for a drive through the Ardennes on a hot summer day, about two or three years ago. I passed through this quiet little village somewhere off in the country, when suddenly I saw a Porsche 906 parked on a little porch - no pun intended! So I turned around and went to take a look.

Indeed it was a genuine Carrera 6, neatly parked next to another Porsche - a 2.8 RSR I later found out - just outside a small garage. You know, the kind of garage sometimes seen on old photo's: wooden doors, racing posters on the walls, some tools lying around, that kind of stuff.

Then I looked a bit closer, and there it was: in that unmistakable blue & orange livery...a 917! Quietly sitting there in this small, picturesque garage in some tiny Belgium country village - you just don't expect to find such a car there! Maybe 30 years ago when they raced at nearby Spa, but not anymore! The best thing was the doors were open and nobody was around...

Anyway, turned out it was the workshop of MEC Auto, a company that restores and maintains racing cars for many customers. They are regulars at historic events.

Not quite as sensational as the '24' in a French barn, but that doesn't matter: it made a good day even better.

[AMICALEMANS]

i dont think that the barn where pictures are taken are genuine.
There is no barn in the suburb of Paris ! (could you please give us the name of the town where is located this barn ?

I think they brought the chassis to the place just to take picture....

[barrykm]

Originally posted by AMICALEMANS
i dont think that the barn where pictures are taken are genuine.
There is no barn in the suburb of Paris ! (could you please give us the name of the town where is located this barn ?

I think they brought the chassis to the place just to take picture....

Maybe yes.....one might have expected a bit more dust on the car...?!

Nonetheless, just imagine having one of these legends just sitting somewhere doing nothing...

[scags]

All you'ld have to do is find a motor on E- Bay.....

[Pedro 917]

I have this picture of Seppi, taken in 1971 (check the 1971 Buenos Aires 1000kms Porsche victory poster) in front of his Fribourg showroom where you can see a similar 917 (probably without the engine). Maybe it was sold later (after his death?) to an enthusiast who kept it as a relic of the golden era? Your guess is as good as mine....


Copyright unknown

[mfd]

Originally posted by AMICALEMANS
i dont think that the barn where pictures are taken are genuine.
There is no barn in the suburb of Paris ! (could you please give us the name of the town where is located this barn ? I think they brought the chassis to the place just to take picture....

Quite possibly the case, but the original printed story refers to a granary & not a barn - they are not the same thing

[AMICALEMANS]

The picture look a little bit false... with fresh straw and the car just in front of the door. How they put the straw in the barn ?

[mfd]

Originally posted by AMICALEMANS
How they put the straw in the barn ?

[Pedro 917]

I'm pretty sure they've put the car in a barn for the magazine photoshoot and that the dust was removed from the bodywork.

[MonzaDriver]

" Life is a scam "

Steve Mcqueen

[Holger Merten]

Originally posted by Rob Semmeling
A 917 tucked away in a French barn for some 30 years...you couldn't make this stuff up, could you!?

This vaguely reminds me of one time I went for a drive through the Ardennes on a hot summer day, about two or three years ago. I passed through this quiet little village somewhere off in the country, when suddenly I saw a Porsche 906 parked on a little porch - no pun intended! So I turned around and went to take a look.

Indeed it was a genuine Carrera 6, neatly parked next to another Porsche - a 2.8 RSR I later found out - just outside a small garage. You know, the kind of garage sometimes seen on old photo's: wooden doors, racing posters on the walls, some tools lying around, that kind of stuff.

Then I looked a bit closer, and there it was: in that unmistakable blue & orange livery...a 917! Quietly sitting there in this small, picturesque garage in some tiny Belgium country village - you just don't expect to find such a car there! Maybe 30 years ago when they raced at nearby Spa, but not anymore! The best thing was the doors were open and nobody was around...

Anyway, turned out it was the workshop of MEC Auto, a company that restores and maintains racing cars for many customers. They are regulars at historic events.

Not quite as sensational as the '24' in a French barn, but that doesn't matter: it made a good day even better.

Yes Rob, a nice story.

[markpde]

Originally posted by rhegra
... could this be No. 24 on a very sad day?
http://www.josiffert...rie_open_12.php

Originally posted by Pedro 917
No, 024 disappeared after the filming of "Le Mans", Seppi's funeral was a year later.

Originally posted by rhegra
..yes I know, Pedro, but if you look at the paint scheme around the headlights and the plexi-cover of the headlights with its black edges (and especially the angular course at the outside corner of the left cover), there are some close similarities. And not all the paintings are the same at these spots at the Gulf-cars if you take a closer look. I don't think also that the as very clever known businessman Siffert "forgot" his car in France. Otherwise: what car they used at the funeral in Fribourg? Let's try to find an answer...
Best regards, Christian

rhegra and Pedro 917, this might be your answer, according to this website...

http://chassis.ultim...ages/917024.htm

You'll see down the left hand side: '1971 - Siffert Cortege'. No specific reference in the text as such, but each chassis' history appears to be exceptionally well researched - a true scholarly work.

Perhaps not absolute, 100 per cent, clarification, but perhaps close enough.

Here's the link to the entire 917 chassis index (you need to click on the chequered bars to get back there after viewing the history of each chassis - took me ages to figure that out!)

http://chassis.ultim...s/917-index.htm

Just found that website tonight. For a 917 enthusiast, it's like a treasure trove. While you're there, check out the history of the 917 Longtails - 040 to 045. The 'hippy car' restoration has been passed off - and even 'certified' - as 043, which I've never believed; it is, and always was, '044', which effectively never existed except as a chassis and body. I think that, sadly, the website above tells 043's true fate. Scrapped! Aaargh!!!

But evidently not, as the ultimosystems website states, at the end of 1971...

http://www.cknet.org...sp?TOPIC_ID=134

For those interested in Alfa 33, Matra 600, Lotus 47 and other series, the ultimosystems website has comprehensive chassis histories for these too (couldn't get the GT40 link to work, though):

http://chassis.ultim...s-histories.htm

[Terry Walker]

The barn photo car does appear to be engine-less.

[rhegra]

...Thanks for this link to a great site I didn´t know .
The other two chassis-registries disappeared from the web some months ago. Absolutely great work...

[mfd]

Originally posted by rhegra
...Thanks for this link to a great site I didn´t know .
The other two chassis-registries disappeared from the web some months ago. Absolutely great work...

Ditto which two have disappeared?

For fans of this car, I have to recommend the new French publication
917 Porsche - Esquisses d'un succès (Sketches of success) by Reynald Hézard. It is excellent

[Pedro 917]

The book has great pictures and drawings but the history of the cars isn't very accurate. What's more, Vic Elford's foreword is fake and was written using an article from a magazine.

[Pedro 917]

Well, Dennis was kind enough to publish my pictures on his site for everyone to see and probably misfiled them.

[markpde]

Originally posted by Pedro 917
I have this picture of Seppi, taken in 1971 (check the 1971 Buenos Aires 1000kms Porsche victory poster) in front of his Fribourg showroom where you can see a similar 917 (probably without the engine). Maybe it was sold later (after his death?) to an enthusiast who kept it as a relic of the golden era? Your guess is as good as mine....


Copyright unknown

Luc: I'm sorry, I should have quoted the above in my previous post, but I was getting carried away and was worried about the post being too long (I've only just begun posting on forums and I'm still an apprentice!). You were evidently correct: the 917 in the photo you posted was indeed 024, the winner in the Le Mans movie. In case you missed it on the ultimosystems website, here's a specific link to a photo of 024 on a flatbed trailer, presumably in Fribourg? (According to the history, though, it still had its engine then, borrowed from Porsche, but the engine was subsequently returned to Porsche when it was sold to Claude Prieur in 1976.)

http://chassis.ultim...ges/917024g.htm

It seems also that it was the 917 in Seppi's funeral cortege.

The other websites with 917 history I've come across are porsche917.com and 962.com, but I've only been on the internet for a year or so (non-stop!).

[SpecialKS]

Originally posted by rhegra
...Thanks for this link to a great site I didn´t know .
The other two chassis-registries disappeared from the web some months ago. Absolutely great work...

I second that. Thanks a lot for this great find.

[dwall]

http://www.imagensda...a70.protot3.jpg

slightly off topic as it's 025 masquerading as 024, but surely the most unique interpretation of the 917 theme

[gerard BARATHIEU]

dwall?,

is it the car when belonged to the FITTIPALDI 's brothers?

[Jon Petersen]

Interesting car in the background - looks like a large Fiat with very muscular wheels !

Jon

[markpde]

Originally posted by dwall
http://www.imagensda...a70.protot3.jpg

slightly off topic as it's 025 masquerading as 024, but surely the most unique interpretation of the 917 theme

Wild!!! Do you know where and when the photo was taken? As Gerard asked, was it when it was being raced by the Fittipaldi brothers?

It's reminiscent of Jackie Stewart's 'cowcatcher' CanAm Lola T260 in late 1971:

http://www.lolaherit.../t260/pic04.htm

[dwall]

the picture came from this site which unfortunately does not give any details, other than that the photographs where taken in Brasil. probably at the Copa Brasil.

http://www.imagensdaluz.com/id134.html