95 replies to this topic

[Tenmantaylor]

Just goes to show it's not how many mistakes you make, it's when you make them that dictates it's "you" (in Lewis' case) that lost the title rather than someone else winning it.

[Asperon]

Even with Alonso's mistakes he still would have won the title comfortably if not for the ghasty penalty at Hungary. Thats the difference between Hamiltons and Alonso's mistakes. Even with them Alonso should have won.

[Galko877]

Originally posted by Asperon
Even with Alonso's mistakes he still would have won the title comfortably if not for the ghasty penalty at Hungary. Thats the difference between Hamiltons and Alonso's mistakes. Even with them Alonso should have won.

Alonso deserved his penalty in Hungary, the same way Schumacher deserved his in Monaco 2006.

[Nukle]

Originally posted by Galko877


Alonso deserved his penalty in Hungary, the same way Schumacher deserved his in Monaco 2006.

Of course

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Asperon
Even with Alonso's mistakes he still would have won the title comfortably if not for the ghasty penalty at Hungary. Thats the difference between Hamiltons and Alonso's mistakes. Even with them Alonso should have won.

Although had Alonso had the same mechanical reliability as Hamilton then it might have been different.

[Lifew12]

he lost the title 'cos Kimi scored one more point.

[Galko877]

Originally posted by ensign14

Although had Alonso had the same mechanical reliability as Hamilton then it might have been different.

I think out of the 4 title contenders Alonso had the least reliability problems. Even that one gearbox problem occured in qualifying, so he still had a chance to make up for it. It's another matter he didn't manage to finish better than 7th starting from 10th, although two cars retired in front of him in the 1st lap....

[Asperon]

Originally posted by ensign14

Although had Alonso had the same mechanical reliability as Hamilton then it might have been different.

His gearbox problem at France cancels out Hamiltons tyre failure at Nurburg, and his drive through at Canada cancels out Hamiltons tyre failure at Turkey so its pretty even. Hamiltons issues at Brazil at very debatable still.

[Asperon]

Originally posted by Galko877


Alonso deserved his penalty in Hungary, the same way Schumacher deserved his in Monaco 2006.

Thats very debatable. Ive never seen or heard of an F1 team get penalized against itself before have you?

[Ross Stonefeld]

So in other words, Alonso made a lot more mistakes than anyone else, but still only finished a point out of winning it all?

[Asperon]

Originally posted by Galko877




I think out of the 4 title contenders Alonso had the least reliability problems. Even that one gearbox problem occured in qualifying, so he still had a chance to make up for it. It's another matter he didn't manage to finish better than 7th starting from 10th, although two cars retired in front of him in the 1st lap....

Hamilton had a much better chance of making up for his qualifying problem at Nurb because it was a wet race so its much easier to pass, and be faster but he didnt even get a point. Starting 10th at a dry France is basically a nightmare.

[Galko877]

Originally posted by Asperon


Thats very debatable. Ive never seen or heard of an F1 team get penalized against itself before have you?

Does it really matter if he did that against his own teammate - who happened to be his greatest rival as well, (you shouldn't try to forget that maybe!) - or against somebody else? The idea behind it was the same. People argue for Alonso saying he only reacted to Hamilton's act earlier or that he only blocked one driver, unlike Schumacher, but the punishment wasn't as strict as Schumacher's either. MS had to start from the back of the grid, FA only lost 5 places so even if we take those extenuating circumstances into account his penalty was totally OK, considering the existing precedent.

[tidytracks]

A far as I can se, he lost it due to 5 main factors:

1. McLaren's refusal to back him as a double world champ over a rookie
2. His own refusal to believe that they would do such a thing
3. His refusal then to get on with the job of beating Lewis in a fair fight
4. His treatment of the team in the spy-gate affair, which I still believe was born of his belief that it would get him out of his contract early
5. The end product of his break-down in relations being the team's apparent, although still not conclusive, favouring of Hamilton in the championship fight

50:50 McLaren and Alonso himself then

[Galko877]

Originally posted by Asperon


Starting 10th at a dry France is basically a nightmare.

Esp. if you make mistakes, like FA did.

[pRy]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
So in other words, Alonso made a lot more mistakes than anyone else, but still only finished a point out of winning it all?

Score.

[Galko877]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
So in other words, Alonso made a lot more mistakes than anyone else, but still only finished a point out of winning it all?

That's because he also had less reliability problems than others.

[Oho]

Originally posted by Galko877


Esp. if you make mistakes, like FA did.

Well Magny Cours was actually a pretty good track for overtaking, for starters in 00 Coulthard actually passed Schumacher for lead and in 99 Häkkinen made about 10 passes during the dry first quarter of the race to be in podium position when the safety car was deployed due to rain.

[Asperon]

Originally posted by Galko877


Esp. if you make mistakes, like FA did.

Thats the product of trying to overtake when its basically impossible these days. You have to over drive.

[Galko877]

Originally posted by Oho



Well Magny Cours was actually a pretty good track for overtaking, for starters in 00 Coulthard actually passed Schumacher for lead and in 99 Häkkinen made about 10 passes during the dry first quarter of the race to be in podium position when the safety car was deployed due to rain.

Indeed. In Magny there were always relatively many overtakings, esp. in the hairpin.

[Asperon]

Originally posted by Oho



Well Magny Cours was actually a pretty good track for overtaking, for starters in 00 Coulthard actually passed Schumacher for lead and in 99 Häkkinen made about 10 passes during the dry first quarter of the race to be in podium position when the safety car was deployed due to rain.

Magny cours is one of the worst tracks for overtaking actually. Coulthard only passed Schumacher because his tyres were shot and in 99 overtaking was easier than 2007.

[Orin]

Originally posted by Asperon


His gearbox problem at France cancels out Hamiltons tyre failure at Nurburg, and his drive through at Canada cancels out Hamiltons tyre failure at Turkey so its pretty even. Hamiltons issues at Brazil at very debatable still.

Canada's all Alonso's fault. Had he not acted like an idiot on the first corner of L1 both McLarens would have sailed into the distance and both drivers would have been able to pit early. With all the confusion he might even have won. Instead, he was travelling steadily backwards through the field, even before the penalty.

Why did Alonso lose the championship? He struggling to adapt to the Bridgestones and, instead of getting his head down (like Raikkonen), he instead wasted time and energy whingeing about not getting preferential treatment, rattling the Spanish press in the hope that McLaren would try to placate him. Stupid moves at Spain and Canada compounded the situation. Alonso lost because he couldn't stomach the possibility of being beaten by a rookie.

[Galko877]

Originally posted by Asperon


Thats the product of trying to overtake when its basically impossible these days. You have to over drive.

FA didn't overdrive while overtaking but also when nobody was around him. But let's agree to disagree. You think FA did the best possible job in Magny and I think he didn't and should have done better than finishing 7th from 10th with that car.

[Asperon]

Originally posted by Orin


Canada's all Alonso's fault. Had he not acted like an idiot on the first corner of L1 both McLaren's would have sailed into the distance and both drivers would have been able to pit early. With all the confusion he might even have won. Instead, he was travelling steadily backwards through the field, even before the penalty.

Even if he had not make those mistakes he would have still been trying to beat Hamilton so he wouldnt have pitted early, but neither of us can read the future so all we know is he got screwed by the SC rule. You are of course trying to blame Alonso for this but if it happened to Hamilton you would have been crying.

[Asperon]

Originally posted by Galko877


FA didn't overdrive while overtaking but also when nobody was around him. But let's agree to disagree. You think FA did the best possible job in Magny and I think he didn't and should have done better than finishing 7th from 10th with that car.

He didnt do a perfect job but at least he got some points , which is more than Hamilton did at Nurburg in conditions that gave him the opportunity to win the race.

[Orin]

Originally posted by Asperon

Even if he had not make those mistakes he would have still been trying to beat Hamilton so he wouldnt have pitted early, but neither of us can read the future so all we know is he got screwed by the SC rule. You are of course trying to blame Alonso for this but if it happened to Hamilton you would have been crying.

Arrow, there's no way they would have run him until empty on a circuit notorious for safety cars: they would have brought him in early with the option of taking a different fuel strategy for his second sprint. Your attempt to excuse Alonso for shooting himself in both feet is laughable.

[Dolk]

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
So in other words, Alonso made a lot more mistakes than anyone else, but still only finished a point out of winning it all?

ps: You need to find your way back to chat man, it's hard to keep up the se7en taunting just between me, G4E and JR.

[Asperon]

Originally posted by Orin


Arrow, there's no way they would have run him until empty on a circuit notorious for safety cars: they would have brought him in early with the option of taking a different fuel strategy for his second sprint.

They didnt bring him in early at Monaco.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Asperon


He didnt do a perfect job but at least he got some points , which is more than Hamilton did at Nurburg in conditions that gave him the opportunity to win the race.

Cos of a strategy gamble that was caused by him starting 10th. If the Ring had been dry, or if Hamilton had not had a mechanical failure, he'd be champ now.

And we'd have a thread about how Kimi lost the title with references to his hydraulic failure or Ferrari not implementing team orders or McLaren ripping them off or something.

[lukywill]

mclaren finish score this season is quite great. only know problems is the q3 in france for alonso and in nurburgring for hamilton. (the brasil hamilton problems are very dubious as the bahrain alonso´s problems).

besides those:

alonso errors: spain (losing 4 points to hamilton, paying the price to dispute the win with ferrari), canada (bad luck calling for the pace car and again a ambitious start), fuji (aquaplaning when pushing at the wrong place).

hamilton errors: turkey (losing control of tyres), china (losing control of tyres), brasil (way down to start lap).

fia penaltys: hungary cost alonso 7 points.

kimi had the spain, nurburgring dnf and some other gp problem in q3.
made a mistake at q2 at monaco.

[yr]

This season proved quite nicely what many here said about his "incredible consistancy" in his WDC years. Both 05 and 06 he got helthy lead after first 3 or 4 races and was able to control his driving after that, meaning he could afford to cruise in second or third place and hope that competitor will need to risk more and thus have a DNF or low finish every once in a while... and that worked perfectly, he got two WDCs.

This year he didnt have luxury to cruise and control and we all see the amount of mistakes/whinges/crying etc that he produced. He lost the title because that, even if his luck with reliability was once again better than his main competitors.

[Orin]

Originally posted by Asperon


They didnt bring him in early at Monaco.

Irrelevant, he was leading in Monaco and the lead driver gets the call. Moreover, they weren't even racing for most of the GP.

[Buttoneer]

Originally posted by Orin


Arrow, there's no way they would have run him until empty on a circuit notorious for safety cars: they would have brought him in early with the option of taking a different fuel strategy for his second sprint. Your attempt to excuse Alonso for shooting himself in both feet is laughable.

Haha you thought so too? RTX/Arrow returns.

[Orin]

Originally posted by Buttoneer

Haha you thought so too? RTX/Arrow returns.

It's a unique posting style. I don't know why he doesn't take the hint and stick to all the other F1 forums he is doubtless a member of. How many times do you have to be banned before the message gets through?

[ensign14]

Originally posted by lukywill
hamilton errors: turkey (losing control of tyres), china (losing control of tyres), brasil (way down to start lap).

Only the middle one seems to apply...there was a machining error in Turkey and no evidence to support the contention that Hamilton reprogrammed his gearbox in Brazil. Other than botched gifs.

[inca_roads]

Alonso lost the title because he didn't beat Hamilton often enough. Everyone said that if McLaren gave him a car with a chance of winning the WDC, he would.

He didn't exactly lose by miles though, did he? So it would be unfair to say he had a bad season.

[lukywill]

after the poor expectations from end 2005 it was a fantastic season. nobody would think that he could lead the wdc after round 2 and it was a bit unbelievable that he could be champion again after changing teams and being twice wdc - all in a row. actually it would be a easy wdc if not for mclaren favoring hamilton.

mclaren made their own bed.

[Asperon]

Originally posted by yr

This year he didnt have luxury to cruise and control and we all see the amount of mistakes/whinges/crying etc that he produced. He lost the title because that, even if his luck with reliability was once again better than his main competitors.

You dont seem to realize that Alonso was also incredibly consistent in 2007. Just not quite as much as previous years. He had maybe the worst luck of all his competitors this year also.

[Asperon]

Originally posted by Orin


Irrelevant, he was leading in Monaco and the lead driver gets the call. Moreover, they weren't even racing for most of the GP.

Him leading Monaco has nothing to do with the fact they didnt bring him in early and risked losing the race from a SC. Are you saying his race wasnt at risk at Monaco by not bringing him early?

Your also saying at Canada that they would have brought him in early if he was second, yet whats the difference if he was 6th? A SC would have been just as costly in either position, so it seems that was never the plan for him.

[Asperon]

Originally posted by inca_roads
Alonso lost the title because he didn't beat Hamilton often enough. Everyone said that if McLaren gave him a car with a chance of winning the WDC, he would.
.

He beat him 10-5 in races so it was pretty often actually. The reason he lost the WC was because he not only had to beat Hamilton but also the Stewards and Mclaren. It was just a little too much for him, but he came close despite all of them.

[Orin]

Originally posted by Asperon

Your also saying at Canada that they would have brought him in early if he was second, yet whats the difference if he was 6th? A SC would have been just as costly in either position, so it seems that was never the plan for him.

Second would have been out in the clear, provided he could keep pace with Hamilton, as Heidfeld was nearly a pitstop behind when he pitted. They brought Hamilton in early in reaction to Heidfeld, because the race was in the bag - Alonso, had he been 2nd and following closely, would have pitted too. As it was, Alonso was falling further and further back through the field, maximising his fuel load was making the best of a bad day.

[Asperon]

Originally posted by Orin

Second would have been out in the clear, provided he could keep pace with Hamilton, as Heidfeld was nearly a pitstop behind when he pitted. They brought Hamilton in early in reaction to Heidfeld, because the race was in the bag - Alonso, had he been 2nd and following closely, would have pitted too. As it was, Alonso was falling further and further back through the field, maximising his fuel load was making the best of a bad day.

As I said before, he was leading comfortably at Monaco yet he wasnt brought in early so his race was risked, which proves he would not have been definately brought in early at Canada.

It seems you have no objection with a driver being brought in early in case of a SC, so you obviously dont have an issue with Mclaren doing that with Hamilton at Monaco do you?

[Orin]

Originally posted by Asperon

As I said before, he was leading comfortably at Monaco yet he wasnt brought in early so his race was risked, which proves he would not have been definately brought in early at Canada.

Eh? The first placed man in Canada was brought in early to cover Heidfeld. The second placed man would surely have been brought in too (assuming he'd kept pace with the first). Let me know if I need to simplify it further.

[Suntrek]

Originally posted by Galko877


FA didn't overdrive while overtaking but also when nobody was around him. But let's agree to disagree. You think FA did the best possible job in Magny and I think he didn't and should have done better than finishing 7th from 10th with that car.

Perhaps also best not forget that Alonso was on a fuel strategy for a totally different race and he had to keep that.

With an optimized strategy for starting in tenth spot he had done better, especially at a track like MC where on-track overtaking is very difficult. As it turned out now he was in traffic all day.

Still, his FL was quicker than Hamilton's FL.

[Asperon]

Originally posted by Orin


Eh? The first placed man in Canada was brought in early to cover Heidfeld. The second placed man would surely have been brought in too (assuming he'd kept pace with the first). Let me know if I need to simplify it further.

If he had been racing Alonso it might have been a different story. As I said before we cant read the future so the only certain fact is that Alonso got screwed by the SC that race.

[Orin]

Originally posted by Asperon


If he had been racing Alonso it might have been a different story. As I said before we cant read the future so the only certain fact is that Alonso got screwed by the SC that race.

You refuse to accept common sense and instead insist that "we can't predict the future, let's blame the safety car". :yawn:

[cheesy poofs]

He joined McLaren...

[wj_gibson]

Originally posted by Orin


Arrow, there's no way they would have run him until empty on a circuit notorious for safety cars: they would have brought him in early with the option of taking a different fuel strategy for his second sprint. Your attempt to excuse Alonso for shooting himself in both feet is laughable.

I'm sorry, but that's BS (the bit about "not running him till empty").

[Atreiu]

Funny, huh?
This was Alonso's most erratic season since 2004. At the same time, he had to battle the best teammate he ever had and Raikkonen in a Ferrari that won more races than the McLaren.
And he lost the title by 2 points only...
Goes to show how good he really is.

No wonder he actually made it look like he was cruising in 2005 and 2006.

[Asperon]

Originally posted by Atreiu
Funny, huh?
This was Alonso's most erratic season since 2004. At the same time, he had to battle the best teammate he ever had and Raikkonen in a Ferrari that won more races than the McLaren.
And he lost the title by 2 points only...
Goes to show how good he really is.

No wonder he actually made it look like he was cruising in 2005 and 2006.

Very true and a point many seem to miss, but you cant really blame them for wanting to jump on him a little considering the few chances they get. They should make the most of it because its unlikely Alonso will drive like he did in 2007 in the future.

[Orin]

Originally posted by wj_gibson


I'm sorry, but that's BS (the bit about "not running him till empty").

They pitted Hamilton early once Heidfeld came in. Why on earth wouldn't they have pitted Alonso if he'd been immediately behind?