69 replies to this topic

[fines]

[This is just a cover-up to get Jim Thurman to post his West Coast Annual stuff ;)]
In 1948, Joshua James "J. C." Agajanian, the president of the Western Racing Association (WRA) and, at the same time the chief race promoter and champion car owner of the same organisation, bought a Kurtis 2000 Champ Car and wanted to enter the Indy 500, only to be told that as an "outlaw" he would not even be allowed to enter the hallowed grounds of Gasoline Alley. Nothing loath, he had his two mechanics Clay Smith and Danny Jones Sr. (the father of Danny "Termite" Jones) enter the car under the wonderfully obscure name of "Smith & Jones Co.", and Johnny Mantz finished the race 13th, and last. So much for humble beginnings...

In order to be able to make an official entry for the 500, Aggie soon left the WRA to its own fate and made a deal with AAA to re-establish the once famous Pacific Coast Circuit in California, and on Nov 11, 1948 Dr. Vaughn McGuire promoted the first of two dozen AAA Sprint Car races on the "left coast" until the series collpased in 1953. There were three races in all in 1948, and five more in early 1949 to make for a winter championship, but my sources are not entirely clear about that. Most sources give Johnny Mantz as the 1948/9 Champion, but one has Rex Mays as the 1948 Champion. I have only limited results for these races, and apparently the scoring system used was different from that of the other AAA championships.

The 1948/9 winter racing in California was one of the most interesting off-seasons in Sprint Car history, for it not only saw the first appearances of tube-frame chassis Sprint Cars, but also the last and the first Sprint Car starts of two of the most successful and revered Sprint Car drivers of all time, Rex Mays and Troy Ruttman!

Dates and winners:
1948-11-11, Arizona State Fairgrounds, Phoenix (AZ), 12.5 miles, 1. Rex Mays (Leech Cracraft Light/Offenhauser)
1948-11-14, Carrell Speedway, Gardena (CA), 15 miles, 1. Johnny Mantz (J. C. Agajanian Kuzma/Offenhauser)
1948-11-21, Carrell Speedway, Gardena (CA), 15 miles, 1. Johnny Mantz (J. C. Agajanian Kuzma/Offenhauser)
1949-01-30, Carrell Speedway, Gardena (CA), 15 miles, 1. Johnny Mantz (J. C. Agajanian Kuzma/Offenhauser)
1949-02-20, Carrell Speedway, Gardena (CA), 15 miles, 1. Johnny Mantz (J. C. Agajanian Kuzma/Offenhauser), 10'33.30"
1949-03-13, Carrell Speedway, Gardena (CA), 15 miles, 1. Rex Mays (Agajanian/Offenhauser)
1949-03-20, Arizona State Fairgrounds, Phoenix (AZ), 25 miles, 1. Johnny Mantz (J. C. Agajanian Kuzma/Offenhauser), 19'53.60"
1949-04-03, Carrell Speedway, Gardena (CA), 20 miles, 1. Johnny Mantz (J. C. Agajanian Kuzma/Offenhauser), 14'28.70"
[/This is just a cover-up to get Jim Thurman to post his West Coast Annual stuff ;)]

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by fines
[This is just a cover-up to get Jim Thurman to post his West Coast Annual stuff ;)]

It worked ;) Thank you for starting an appropriate thread

From the 1949 West Coast Annual, page 6 (all info as is) :

Western Racing Association

"Commencing December 14, 1947, the WRA three-quarter jobs competed at Carrell Speedway through May 12, 1948, staging 12 programs. During that period, J.C. Agajanian presided over the WRA, having been re-elected to the post for the tenth consecutive year by the Board of Directors.

In April, however, Agajanian resigned from the WRA, having found that his position as Managing Director of Carrell placed him in critical positions in making certain decisions pertaining to the races wherein he also figured as a car owner.

Soon after, the WRA all but disintegrated and its races were terminated after the show of May 12, 1948.

Main event winners, in order, were: Andy Linden, Troy Ruttman, Frank McGurk, Art George, Bud Rose, Johnny Mantz, Slim Mathis (dec), Mantz, Fred Luce (dec), Kenny Palmer, and Tex Petersen the last two.

The WRA point standing "big three" drivers were Palmer, Rose and McGurk, while the three top car owners were Al Morales, Agajanian and Vince Conze."

And, immediately below it...

A.A.A. Big Cars

Triple-A racing, featuring 3/4-sized autos to regular Indianapolis jobs, (barring a few necessary revisions for a 1/2 mile track) returned to Southern California after a 12-year layoff when a sanction was granted Carrell Speedway for Sunday afternoon, November 14, 1948.

The big jobs made there last Southland appearance at old Legion Ascot Speedway in 1936, and their return was welcomed by a turn-away throng of 13,000 fans.

Frank McGurk, driving the Conze Bros. No. 3 Offie, registered the top qualifying time of 21.33 second, with Mel Hansen's 21.49 second best in Paul Weirick's famed "Poison Lil," the No. 17 Offie. McGurk copped the 3-lap t.d. in 1:04.74.

Hal Robson took the 15-lap semi in the Gilbert & McKinney Special after his own car blew up during time trials. Roy Prosser was second and Bob Cross third, winner's time being 5:55.25.

The inaugural 30-lapper went to Johnny Mantz, driving J.C. Agajanian's brand-new No. 98 Jr. Offie which had been finished up by Eddie Kuzma just the night before. McGurk was second and Hansen third. Mantz was clocked in 10:54.35. The favored Rex Mays spun on the 9th lap and placed 10th.

A week later Mantz broke all previous Carrell records as he pushed the Offie to 20.43 for a half mile lap on the paved strip. His team-mate, Kenny Palmer, got into the t.d. with him by tooling Agajanian's No. 44 in 20.52. Mantz bagged the 3-lapper in new record time of 1:03.70.

Robson again repeated in the 15 lap semi, trailed this time by Johnny Parsons and Cross repeated for third money.

Mantz, the lead-footed Long Beach youth singled out by Rex Mays and other greats as 1949's big prospect, took the 30-lap "featch" again, with Johnny McDowell second in the Idding's Special No. 10 in which Lee Wallard placed seventh at Indianapolis. Third money was collected by Mays, driving Leech Cracraft's Offie Special from Wheeling, W. Va. Mantz sliced his previous mark to 10:33.50.

The two big car programs concluded the 1948 schedule, with others slated in 1949."

Also relevant, from the profile of Kenny Palmer:

"Kenny was W.R.A. champion in 1941, and led W.R.A. in points for the races held in 1948 although the standings were discarded when W.R.A. combined with A.R.A."

That's where I got that bit from. No other info on the merging of the two associations.

[Jim Thurman]

Under AAA Big Car Results - Pacific Coast (keep in mind the publication date)

Nov. 11 - Phoenix - 40 laps - Mays, Barbo, McDowell - 20.03.50

If this was 40 laps, it would have been a 40 mile race. The time would seem to verify that as well.

The Annual also has a roster of A.A.A. Pacific Coast Big Cars listing driver, type of car (actually car name) and owner.

And, something I know you'll be interested in, full AAA Big Car points standings for the Pacific Coast (as of November 21, 1948) - both owners and drivers, and the top 10 for Eastern and Mid-Western.

But, that's for the next post.

[Jim Thurman]

Make that, in one more post...

In the Midget section

Top ten in points as of November 1 or November 20 for the National Championship, Pennsylvania-Virginia Circuit, Chicago-Mississippi Valley Circuit, Michigan-Ohio Valley Circuit and Southwest Circuit.

Top Ten points Mid-West Car Owners.

1948 A.A.A. Midgets Main Event Winners

Carrell Speedway, and "other tracks" (lists top three finishers and winning times)

And in the CRA section, a driver roster, 1948 season results and final 1948 driver and owner points (top 20).

Interested?

How about the top 10 in Stock Car points?

[fines]

Two notes, though:

Triple-A racing, featuring 3/4-sized autos to regular Indianapolis jobs, (barring a few necessary revisions for a 1/2 mile track) returned to Southern California after a 12-year layoff when a sanction was granted Carrell Speedway for Sunday afternoon, November 14, 1948.

The big jobs made there last Southland appearance at old Legion Ascot Speedway in 1936, and their return was welcomed by a turn-away throng of 13,000 fans.

I have notes about AAA races at Imperial for 1936-8, according to my geographical knowledge this is also So. Cal.!?!

Nov. 11 - Phoenix - 40 laps - Mays, Barbo, McDowell - 20.03.50

If this was 40 laps, it would have been a 40 mile race. The time would seem to verify that as well.

A 40-mile race in 20 minutes??? Jim, where's your math education No, these races were on the 5/8 asphalt track!

[fines]

A.A.A. Big Cars

Triple-A racing, featuring 3/4-sized autos to regular Indianapolis jobs, (barring a few necessary revisions for a 1/2 mile track) returned to Southern California after a 12-year layoff when a sanction was granted Carrell Speedway for Sunday afternoon, November 14, 1948.

The big jobs made there last Southland appearance at old Legion Ascot Speedway in 1936, and their return was welcomed by a turn-away throng of 13,000 fans.

Frank McGurk, driving the Conze Bros. No. 3 Offie, registered the top qualifying time of 21.33 second, with Mel Hansen's 21.49 second best in Paul Weirick's famed "Poison Lil," the No. 17 Offie. McGurk copped the 3-lap t.d. in 1:04.74.

Hal Robson took the 15-lap semi in the Gilbert & McKinney Special after his own car blew up during time trials. Roy Prosser was second and Bob Cross third, winner's time being 5:55.25.

The inaugural 30-lapper went to Johnny Mantz, driving J.C. Agajanian's brand-new No. 98 Jr. Offie which had been finished up by Eddie Kuzma just the night before. McGurk was second and Hansen third. Mantz was clocked in 10:54.35. The favored Rex Mays spun on the 9th lap and placed 10th.

I have a bit to add, the line-up for the feature event:
Frank McGurk, #3 Conze/Offenhauser
Mel Hansen, #17 (Paul Weirick) Sparks-Weirick/Offenhauser
Kenny Palmer, #44 Agajanian/Offenhauser
Jack McGrath, #21 Leighton/Riley
Johnny McDowell, #12 Iddings/Offenhauser
Johnny Mantz, #98jr. (J. C. Agajanian) Kuzma/Offenhauser
Rex Mays, #5 (Leech Cracraft) Light/Offenhauser
Tex Peterson, #9 Morales/Offenhauser
Chick Barbo, #14 (Hal Cole) Kurtis/Offenhauser
Sam Hanks, #1 Wales/Offenhauser
Joe Garson, #29 Malamud/Offenhauser
Tommy Mattson, #2 Mattson/Offenhauser

Most car IDs are from a photograph, but I'm reasonably confident of them. #98jr. was still unpainted for this event!

[fines]

Originally posted by Jim Thurman
Make that, in one more post...

In the Midget section

Top ten in points as of November 1 or November 20 for the National Championship, Pennsylvania-Virginia Circuit, Chicago-Mississippi Valley Circuit, Michigan-Ohio Valley Circuit and Southwest Circuit.

Top Ten points Mid-West Car Owners.

1948 A.A.A. Midgets Main Event Winners

Carrell Speedway, and "other tracks" (lists top three finishers and winning times)

And in the CRA section, a driver roster, 1948 season results and final 1948 driver and owner points (top 20).

Interested?

How about the top 10 in Stock Car points?

[fines]

Jim, do you really want to post all this, I suggest you use a scanner!

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by fines

Two notes, though:

I have notes about AAA races at Imperial for 1936-8, according to my geographical knowledge this is also So. Cal.!?!

A 40-mile race in 20 minutes??? Jim, where's your math education No, these races were on the 5/8 asphalt track!

Errr, umm, well aside from the obvious...I plead lack of caffeine It also explains why I liked history much more than math

Correct, Imperial is in the Southeastern portion of California, between San Diego and the Arizona border. The track is at the California Mid-Winter Fairgrounds and was often referred to as El Centro, though it actually sits between the two towns and is a mile closer to Imperial than El Centro.

It has always been the fastest track in the U.S. below sea level ;)

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by fines
Jim, do you really want to post all this, I suggest you use a scanner!

To be brutally blunt, not really...but I am very willing to share, especially with individuals like yourself.

Unfortunately, my scanner has been non-compatible for some time and I do not know when I will be getting a replacement :

[fines]

Jim, that's VERY kind of you

Now, I suggest you start with the owners points, because I have good info for drivers championships. I'll try to post these later so you can look if your info differs, but you won't need to type it all!

[Frank S]

In case you hadn't seen this January 9, 1949 "Big Car" program, AAA at Carrell Speedway:
http://home.san.rr.c...f/covcs0149.htm

--
Frank S

[fines]

Far out! Got more of that great stuff?

[fines]

Don't you just love it when people pen qualifying times in old programmes? It is often the only way to get such info, as reports rarely go beyond fast time.

Btw, this Jan 9 event was postponed to Jan 30, presumably because of track maintenance; at least that's the way I read the situation.

[fines]

Sorry, it's me again, but there are several interesting names on the "Officials" page: J. C. Agajanian (managing director) and Emmett Malloy (track supervisor), of course, with AAA big shots Art Harrington and Gordon Betz getting their usual mention; then we have former racers Babe Stapp (AAA representative) and Reeves Dutton (technical committee), and one Ludwig Lesovsky (assistant starter) - yes, that's "Lujie". I also wonder if Dom Distarce (starter) and Dr. Sidney Senter (ambulance service) were related to PeeWee Distarce and Louis Senter? Oh, and page sponsor "Elmer's Muffler Shop" would later sponsor a CRA Sprint Car as well...

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by fines
Jim, that's VERY kind of you

Now, I suggest you start with the owners points, because I have good info for drivers championships. I'll try to post these later so you can look if your info differs, but you won't need to type it all!

But even the driver points are from November, so do you have the standings as of that date? It appears they listed everyone who had earned a point to that date...in other words, complete point standings.

Obviously, it will take me some time to do this, and I am certainly eyeing getting a replacement scanner to expedite it.

[Jim Thurman]

First, thanks Frank for posting the link to the program

Dom and "PeeWee" were one in the same...so, yes, very closely related ;)

[Frank S]

Originally posted by fines
Far out! Got more of that great stuff?

It's a serendipitous eBay acquisition, back before people found out what they had was worth more than $8.00 to some folks. One other such was the Carrell Speedway program with P. Hill driving an MG TC:
http://home.san.rr.c...f/covcs0749.htm

Those and one other are on page
http://home.san.rr.c...f/coverst01.htm which allows access to quite a few more, mostly far more modern.

I confess sloth and lack of time have driven me to neglect the Web site pages, but I have made those and a number of other programs available through FotoTime. The first few albums are mixed and perhaps repetitive in some cases; remainder are labeled by location and date.
http://www.fototime....8E4976B3CB4F9F2

Seems to me I have another dozen or so from more recent forays, but they were stored while other housework was ongoing, and haven't been un-stored yet. I'll try to do some more while the nights are longer and colder, and add links as they develop.

--
Frank S
When you catch an adjective, kill it.
—Mark Twain

[fines]

Found two more of interest to me, 1949 Champ Car race at Del Mar, and last ever AAA Pacific Coast Sprint meeting at Carrell 1953. Thanks!

Btw, I have results of the Carrell meeting, there are none "scribbled" into the programme - interested?

[Frank S]

Originally posted by fines
Found two more of interest to me, 1949 Champ Car race at Del Mar, and last ever AAA Pacific Coast Sprint meeting at Carrell 1953. Thanks!

Btw, I have results of the Carrell meeting, there are none "scribbled" into the programme - interested?

Very good! You're welcome.

I've looked through my "received" log and found notation of a couple of Big Car programs from Pomona Fair Ground races in very early 50s, but the actual location of the actual paper product is still under review.

I would like to have the Carrell results. Thanks,

Frank

[fines]

Pomona/L. A. County Fairgrounds, Feb 18 in 1951 and Mar 23 in 1952 - very interesting! I'll be waiting...

Gardena/Carrell Speedway, Mar 8,1953

Time Trials: 1 Don Freeland, 21.72" (track record), 2 Duane Carter, (3?) Jimmy Bryan, (8?) Allen Heath

Trophy Dash, 3 laps: 1 Carter, 2 Freeland

Heat 1, 6 laps: 1 Jimmy Davies, 2 Johnnie Tolan, (3?) Bob Scott, (4?) Joe Garson

Heat 2, 6 laps: 1 Heath, 2 Carter, 3 Johnnie Parsons, retired Don Olds (accident), retired Roy Prosser (accident)

Heat 3, 6 laps: 1 Bryan, 2 Jack McGrath, 3 Troy Ruttman, (4?) Billy Cantrell, retired Lenny Low (3 laps, accident)

Consi, 10 laps: (1?) Scott, (2?) Bill Zaring, (3?) Olds, (4?) Prosser, (5?) Cantrell, retired Jay Chamberlain (3 laps, accident)

Feature, 30 laps: 1 Heath, 2 Bryan, 3 Parsons, 4 McGrath, 5 Carter, 6 Tolan, 7 Freeland, (8?) Olds, (9?) Low, retired Ruttman (19 laps, withdrawn), retired Davies (15 laps, mechanical), retired Zaring (8 laps, accident)

Lead laps: 1-21 Bryan, 22-30 Heath

Cars:

Heath: #5 Conze Special = 1936? Conze/Offenhauser
Bryan: #45 Leitenberger's Special = 1950 Leitenberger/Offenhauser
Parsons: #51 Miracle Power Special = ?
McGrath: #25 Cheeseman Offy = (Bill Cheeseman) 1951 Myklebust/Offenhauser
Carter: #7 Miracle Power Special = own 1938?/49 Malloy-Agajanian/Offenhauser
Tolan: #32 Aggie & Troy Offy = (J. C. Agajanian & Troy Ruttman) Randall/Offenhauser
Freeland: #19 Dale Estes Special = brand new sprint car of Bob Estes, named after Bob's son, Offenhauser engine
Olds: #63 Dobry Special = (Leo Dobry) 1948 Kurtis/Offenhauser
Low: #27 Jessup Special = (Willard Jessup) ?/Wayne
Ruttman: #98jr. Agajanian Special = (J. C. Agajanian) 1948 Kuzma/Offenhauser
Davies: #42 Travelon Trailer Special = 1953? Ruiz/Offenhauser
Zaring: ?
Scott: #3 Morales Bros. Special = 1936? Morales/Offenhauser
Prosser: #91 Mobiloil Special = (Roy Prosser) ?/Studebaker
Cantrell: #18 Hal Robson Special = (Hal Robson) ?
Chamberlain: #17 Phil Rauch Special = (Jay Chamberlain) ?/Studebaker
Garson: #15 Miracle Power Special = (Bob Eader) 1937?/48 Nigro-Famighetti/Offenhauser

[bpratt]

Years ago I photocopied the 1949 West Coast Annual courtesy of the Victoria Auto Racing Hall of Fame. Here's the 1948 CRA points. My old Epson hasn't died yet (and I really put it through its paces at times).

[bpratt]

1948 big car standings to date noted.

[fines]

Hey Brian, are you putting Jim out of a job? Thanks anyway!!!

[TooTall]

Don't know if this fits with this thread, but I came across this the other day in some of my late father-in-laws stuff. I can scan and post the rest if anyone's interested.



Cheers,
Kurt O.

[Frank S]

Originally posted by fines
Pomona/L. A. County Fairgrounds, Feb 18 in 1951 and Mar 23 in 1952 - very interesting! I'll be waiting...

Gardena/Carrell Speedway, Mar 8,1953

[ ... ]

Thank you for the results.

I've narrowed the Pomona search, hoping for a good result there.

--
Frank S

[bpratt]

Originally posted by fines
Hey Brian, are you putting Jim out of a job? Thanks anyway!!!

Nah, but Jim did a lot of scanning for me over the years. Probably helped him wear out a few scanners in the process.

Anyway, two more scans of stats.

[fines]

Ta, chaps! You keep me busy...


Kurt, if you don't mind posting it, then do! I am not terribly interested in Roadsters, but they're sufficently close to Sprinters to make the programme interesting in the context of this thread. Perhaps it also contains some goodies, like Nick Valenta's birthday or some such...

[fines]

Having just stated my general lack of enthusiasm for Roadsters, I still couldn't avoid having a look at the 1948 CRA standings, and I found something odd: listed in 15th position is Red Amick - Red Amick??? In his book "Kings of the Hills", Buzz Rose also lists Red Amick in the 1949 Pacific Coast standings, but I took that as a simple "slip of the mind" for George Amick, who was from the region (Oregon) and five years older than Red. I also had George racing AAA Sprints in 1948 already, while my first entry for Red is in IMCA in 1954. Now I'm really puzzled! This is a 1949 source, right? So it can't be a "slip of the mind" error, but Red was only 19 then, and I have him pretty solidly as a Midwestern chap! Of course, this is proof for exactly nothing, but anyone here with more solid info?

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by fines
Having just stated my general lack of enthusiasm for Roadsters, I still couldn't avoid having a look at the 1948 CRA standings, and I found something odd: listed in 15th position is Red Amick - Red Amick??? In his book "Kings of the Hills", Buzz Rose also lists Red Amick in the 1949 Pacific Coast standings, but I took that as a simple "slip of the mind" for George Amick, who was from the region (Oregon) and five years older than Red. I also had George racing AAA Sprints in 1948 already, while my first entry for Red is in IMCA in 1954. Now I'm really puzzled! This is a 1949 source, right? So it can't be a "slip of the mind" error, but Red was only 19 then, and I have him pretty solidly as a Midwestern chap! Of course, this is proof for exactly nothing, but anyone here with more solid info?

Michael, go to Search BB and type in Red Amick. I cover it nicely in a thread titled "Red Amick"

And, yes, I still am lost trying to type in a direct link to a thread or post here.

[fines]

Thanks, will do! Meanwhile, I have also found "R. Amick" listed in the Pacific Coast Midget Championship - 15 years before my only other Midget entry for the man!

[fines]

Hmm, the other thread's closed now (I wonder why?), otherwise I could've added a few more career stats for Red Amick, but another thing got my attention: Jim, you put up the examples of Flaherty, George and the Amicks for Californians who relocated to the Midwest. I understand the argument, and in Flahertys case I'm fully with you, but not so clear about the others: Elmer George I have born in Oklahoma, but I believe he was raised in Salinas, so that would be okay also if you can confirm, but Red Amick I have born in Missouri, was he also raised in California? His hometown is always listed as Muncie, IN from 1954 to '65. George Amick I have born in Oregon, but living mostly in Venice, CA - did he grow up there as well?

I understand the concept, and I regard Ted Horn, Rodger Ward, Troy Ruttman or Joe James as Californians, even though they were born in the Midwest, but relocated as childs.

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by fines
Hmm, the other thread's closed now (I wonder why?), otherwise I could've added a few more career stats for Red Amick, but another thing got my attention: Jim, you put up the examples of Flaherty, George and the Amicks for Californians who relocated to the Midwest. I understand the argument, and in Flahertys case I'm fully with you, but not so clear about the others: Elmer George I have born in Oklahoma, but I believe he was raised in Salinas, so that would be okay also if you can confirm, but Red Amick I have born in Missouri, was he also raised in California? His hometown is always listed as Muncie, IN from 1954 to '65. George Amick I have born in Oregon, but living mostly in Venice, CA - did he grow up there as well?

I understand the concept, and I regard Ted Horn, Rodger Ward, Troy Ruttman or Joe James as Californians, even though they were born in the Midwest, but relocated as childs.

I didn't have George Amick as a Californian, I had him as from Vernonia, Oregon, along with his brother Bill.

The rest of this gets more into semantics. U.S. media often uses the term "hometown" to list current residence, and thus begins the confusion. I am a native Texan, but the family relocated to Arizona by the time I was 2 and California by the time I was 3. I have no memories of Texas at all, some from Arizona...but, you get my drift. So, I am not a native Californian, but I have only a few recollections or memories from elsewhere.

The drivers you cite (and several others for that matter) were not native Californians, but began their driving careers there. I don't refer to them as Californians as such, even though they moved to California at various ages. I just note they were based in California when starting their racing.

I have no idea when the families of those you cited moved to California, but Census reports could answer this.

I can confirm that Elmer George did live in Salinas at the time he began racing. He was listed in Salinas Speedway results in 1948.

I don't know when Red Amick moved to California, but I do know he began his racing in California. Interestingly, because of all the printed material, I had believed him to be from the Midwest until doing research and running across his name in results of a 1948 Roadster race at Salinas.

I have also seen George Amick listed as residing in Venice, California. He relocated to Southern California from the Northwest to further his racing, much like Allen Heath, and then relocated to Wisconsin.

Then there were drivers like Eddie Johnson and Kenny Eaton who relocated to California from the Midwest to further their driving careers, and then returned to the Midwest.

Confusing, eh?

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by fines
Thanks, will do! Meanwhile, I have also found "R. Amick" listed in the Pacific Coast Midget Championship - 15 years before my only other Midget entry for the man!

Now this one I am interested in. What year?

[fines]

Jim, make a guess!

Hint: its's in the "194_ W___ C__s_ _nn__l", and it's been posted by Brian Pratt on this page!;)

[bpratt]

That "R. Amick" has to be a typo. Looked at my copy of Distant Thunder by Dick Wallen. No index entry for anyone but George Amick. But the index is frustrating as it mostly covers photos so if there is an "R. Amick" in the 395 pages it'll be a fluke finding it in the next couple years.

The point standings in the book go down about 20 positions for AAA and URA Blue and Red circuits from 1945 to 1950. George is the only Amick listed that I can see.

[Jim Thurman]

As Brian mentions, the name in the Midget points must be a typo and should be George Amick.

Michael, did I manage to sort out the drivers for you...or did I simply cause more confusion?

I ask because I seem to have rendered you the typing equivalent of speechless

[fines]

Now you're playing tricks with me, aren't you? First, you convince me that (1) Red Amick raced in 1948 already, and (2) he did so in California, and now all of a sudden it has to be typo and George all over again!

Seriously, I agree with you that it's more likely to have been George, but since AAA and CRA were mostly on friendly terms (see McGrath, Prosser etc, appearing in both 1948 rosters), wouldn't it be possible for Red to have done a few AAA midget races just as a test to see if he could cut the mustard? Just a thought...

And, with Roadsters and Midgets being of limited interest to me, the most important point is: who was the Amick in the 1949 Pacific Coast Big Car Standings? Apart from an appearnce in Conny Wiedell's (or Weidell, Weidel, Wiedel etc.) sprinter in 1948 I have no other Big Car data for George Amick until 1955!

[bpratt]

Just got Dick Wallen's Roaring Roadsters book in the mail today. So I flip to the index and there are four entries for Red Amick, and one for George Amick. So Red Amick was in southern California in the late 1940s driving roadsters. And probably midgets and big cars.

Who's the guy whose tag line is "lord help me keep my big mouth shut until I know what I'm talking about"? Genius there.

Track roadsters, the missing link....

[Jim Thurman]

The R. Amick in the 1948 Midget points must be Richard "Red" Amick. I was deferring to Brian there, and giving it further thought, I believe George was still racing in the Pacific Northwest in 1948. IIRC, he moved South in 1950. I have George in a Midget race at Visalia, California in 1950 (incidentally, opening night for the track and a torrid duel with Allen Heath and Bill Vukovich in the main event).

Red definitely was racing in California in 1948. I say the Amick in both the 1948 Midget and 1949 Big Car points is him.

Why was it you were asking who the R. Amick was in the first place?;)

[fines]

Jim, your scanner still k.o.?

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by fines
Jim, your scanner still k.o.?

Unfortunately so Michael. My brother still hasn't located his spare.

[fines]

I'm really sorry to dredge up this old thread again, but I have found new information about the Carrell Speedway events (also in 1949) and am SO close to matching driver and owner points and working out the heat results, all that's missing is info from the Phoenix race, and I simply can't seem to find anything, it's frustrating!

Every little bit of info could (and probably would) help, and I'm especially anxious to see what the driver profiles or the car roster in the Annual will yield! Jim, how about that scanner business? Or, I'm almost ashamed to ask, could you perhaps go through it and post relevant info here? Maybe Brian can come to the rescue again...

There's a great story waiting to be told here, and I really hope that I can get around to doing that soon! California was the birthplace of speed back then, not only engines, cars and drivers, but also many owners, mechanics and even race promoters started from here and would soon dominate US oval racing! This winter season was one of the most pivotal, what with tube frame cars, "stretched" Midgets, Aggie, Parsons, Vukovich and, most of all, Troy Ruttman emerging from this "hub of the (racing) universe" - fascinating!

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by fines
Every little bit of info could (and probably would) help, and I'm especially anxious to see what the driver profiles or the car roster in the Annual will yield! Jim, how about that scanner business? Or, I'm almost ashamed to ask, could you perhaps go through it and post relevant info here? Maybe Brian can come to the rescue again...

I finally have a scanner, but I have a busy week or two ahead. I will get to it ASAP Michael. Next week at the earliest.

There's a great story waiting to be told here, and I really hope that I can get around to doing that soon! California was the birthplace of speed back then, not only engines, cars and drivers, but also many owners, mechanics and even race promoters started from here and would soon dominate US oval racing! This winter season was one of the most pivotal, what with tube frame cars, "stretched" Midgets, Aggie, Parsons, Vukovich and, most of all, Troy Ruttman emerging from this "hub of the (racing) universe" - fascinating!

I agree completely and I'm always interested in seeing your research.

[fines]

No problemo, Jim, take your time! Meanwhile, I'll dig a little deeper into the 1933 Pacific Coast Championship - there's a great story waiting to be told there... uh, I seem to be repeating myself here!

[fines]

Incomplete, like the 1936 Midwest table, but still:

Events

1948-11-11  Arizona State Fairgrounds	25m   Rex Mays		 Light/Offenhauser		 20'04.32"   74.73 mph

1948-11-14  Carrell Speedway			 15m   Johnny Mantz	 Agajanian/Offenhauser	 10'54.35"   82.52 mph

1948-11-21  Carrell Speedway			 15m   Johnny Mantz	 Agajanian/Offenhauser	 10'35.50"   84.97 mph





Pos Driver		   Total	 R 1	R 2	R 3		 E   R   C 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th  FT

 1  Rex Mays			85.7	61	  6.4   18		 3   3   3   1   -   1   -   -   -   1	Cracraft #5

 2  Johnny McDowell	 84	  40	 20	 24		 3   3   3   -   1   1   1   -   -   -	Iddings #12

 3  Chick Barbo		 75.6	48	 10.8   16.8	   3   3   3   -   1   -   1   1   -   -	Cole #14

 4  Johnny Mantz		69.4	 -	 30	 39.4	   2   2   2   2   -   -   -   -   -   1	Agajanian #98

 5  Frank McGurk		50.6	18.8   31.8	-		 2   1   1   -   1   -   -   -   -   1	Conze #3

 6  Hal Robson		  38	   -	 15	  -		 1   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -	Gilbert #16

								 -	  -	 23		 1   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -	Robson #8

 7  Mel Hansen		  35.18	0	 26.8	8.38	  3   1   1   -   -   1   -   -   -   -	Weirick #17

 8  Kenny Palmer		31.05   20	  7.15   3.9	   3   3   3   -   -   -   -   1   -   -	Agajanian #44

 9  Roy Prosser		 28.65	8	 12	  8		 3   1   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -	Dietrich #10

10  Joe Garson		  24.9	10	  3	  9.4	   3   2   2   -   -   -   -   -   2   -	Malamud #29

11  Jack McGrath		21.33	6	  8	  6.4	   3   1   1   -   -   -   -   -   -   -	Leighton #21

12  Bill Sheffler	   20	  20	  -	  -		 1   1   1   -   -   -   1   -   -   -	Sheffler #32

13  Tex Peterson		19.94	6	  5.18   -		 2   1   1   -   -   -   -   -   -   -	Morales #9

14  Johnnie Parsons	 19.52	7.5	-	  -		 1   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -	Truchan #18

								 -	  -	 12		 1   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -	Morales #9

15  Bob Cross		   18	   -	  9	  -		 1   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -	Johnson #7

								 -	  -	  9		 1   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -	Johnson #6

16  Tommy Mattson	   15.25	6	  8	  -		 2   1   1   -   -   -   -   -   -   -	Mattson #2

17  Gordon Reid		 15.04   15	  -	  0		 2   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -	Nigro #15

18  Manuel Ayulo		12	   -	  6	  6		 2   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -	Truchan #18

19  Warren Hamilton	 11.28	-	  -	  -		 -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -	Hamilton #57

20  Spider Webb		 10.8	 -	  -	 10.8	   1   1   1   -   -   -   -   1   -   -	Webb #1

21  Sam Hanks			7.05	-	  1.5	-		 1   1   1   -   -   -   -   -   -   -	Webb #1

								 -	  -	  5.55	  1   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -	Conze #3

22  Bill Anderson		4.51	-	  ?	  -		 1   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -	Anderson #46

23  Chuck Stevenson	  4.13	-	  -	  -		 -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -	Mathews #38

24  Don Carr			 3	   -	  3	  -		 1   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -	Emmerick #4

25  Dick McClung		 3	   -	  -	  3		 1   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -	Blair #28

26  Lou Figaro		   1.5	 -	  -	  -		 -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -	Estes #77

27  Lyle Dickey		  0.38	-	  -	  -		 -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -	Johnson #6

28  Dick Vineyard		0.38	-	  -	  -		 -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -	Wiedell #88

29  Corky Benson		 0.19	-	  -	  -		 -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -	Gilbert #16

30  Kenny Crispin		0.19	-	  -	  -		 -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -	Crispin #53

31  Bob Lindsey		  0.15	-	  -	  0		 1   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -	Estes #77

	Andy Linden				  0	  -	  -		 1   1   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -	

	Ed Barnett				   -	  -	  0		 1   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -   -

Californian indulgence once again means a slightly different scoring method to the rest of the US, and although I think I have it mostly cracked, minor heat positions still remain a nuisance, and I have abstained from educated guesswork to fill in the blanks. Thanks to Jim Thurman's excellent source material, car owners and numbers appear to the right of the table, as a bonus!

Perhaps I'll have the time to add a narrative later.

[ensign14]

A Vineyard comes just above a Corky? Fitting.

Many of the names at the top end are vaguely familiar from Indy, but I have NEVER heard of Chick Barbo, other than in relation to his death...there was some talent there, evidently.

[fines]

That's one of the reasons why I post these things, to get the names out into the public domain. Drivers like Barbo, Palmer, Prosser or Garson are all but forgotten because they never got a break at Indy, but they were just as good as many who did, and better than some!

[ensign14]

I've just noticed Lou Figaro. I take it that was the same Lou Figaro who won an NASCAR race before he was killed racing?

[ReWind]

If anyone wants to know how old those drivers were back then:

Pos Driver			 Age   Birthdate

 1  Rex Mays			35  10.03.1913

 2  Johnny McDowell	 33  29.01.1915

 3  Chick Barbo		c32		  ??

 4  Johnny Mantz		30  18.09.1918

 5  Frank McGurk		33  19.06.1915

 6  Hal Robson		  37  16.08.1911

 7  Mel Hansen		  37  07.07.1911

 8  Kenny Palmer		??

 9  Roy Prosser		 33  12.10.1915

10  Joe Garson		  40  07.03.1908

11  Jack McGrath		29  08.10.1919

12  Bill Sheffler	   31  23.08.1917

13  Tex Peterson		??

14  Johnnie Parsons	 30  04.07.1918

15  Bob Cross		   ??

16  Tommy Mattson	   34  08.06.1914

17  Gordon Reid		 25  11.08.1923

18  Manuel Ayulo		27  20.10.1921

19  Warren Hamilton	 ??

20  Spider Webb		 38  08.10.1910

21  Sam Hanks		   34  13.07.1914

22  Bill Anderson	   ??

23  Chuck Stevenson	 29  15.10.1919

24  Don Carr			??

25  Dick McClung		??

26  Lou Figaro		  31  12.10.1917

27  Lyle Dickey		 ??

28  Dick Vineyard	   ??

29  Corky Benson		??

30  Kenny Crispin	   ??

31  Bob Lindsey		 ??

	Andy Linden		 26  05.04.1922		   

	Ed Barnett		  ??