4339 replies to this topic

[Speed_Racer]

Originally posted by kNt
He had no chance of a points finish any more, as P8 and P9 were almost one lap ahead, it was the very last lap...

Technically he might have been right to do so and had it been some laps earlier I would say he can do something like that but on the very last lap he should stick back and let the championship go it's way.

Yeah. His reckless attempt on Lewis seemed to be the only reason Lewis went wide ... thus allowing Vettel to go through.

[kNt]

Originally posted by Lukin83
I have no hope I am able to change someones mind but just for the record:
- Kubica driving with slicks trough first few laps most probably would lost over 10 secs per lap
- Starting from pits could have been a lucky decision, otherwise Kubica would be somewhere between Coulthard, Rosberg, Nakajima and Piquet in the 1st corner

In hindsight with the Safetycar it would have been the right thing to start with slicks, he would have been ahead of Fisichella that changed to slicks under SC but had the race started properly he would have been lucky if he had brought it home.

[barteks]

Kubica said they had wrong information about weather conditions and they had to pit before start for intermediates. They also had problem with pit-stop during the race. Robert wanted to change front wing angle but the team didn't do it.

[noikeee]

Originally posted by kNt
He had no chance of a points finish any more, as P8 and P9 were almost one lap ahead, it was the very last lap...

And it was raining hard with some people falling down the order like they were driving a Formula Vee. Anything could happen and Kubica was on a massive gamble of a race anyway. He had to risk it all.

[fnz]

Originally posted by Speed_Racer
Backmarker kubica trying dirty moves on Lewis to impress Ferrari??
Nearly cost Lewis the championship there ....

Something McLaren fanboys should remember.... Kubica's move was no different than Hamilton's some races ago (unlapping to Alonso)

[Nuvol]

Originally posted by paranoik0


He was quicker than both and had all the rights in the world to unlap himself. Hamilton's championship and Vettel's fight for P4/P5 was none of his business. Now that's racing.

Somehow in 06 he mind about Alonsos title chances and let him go at Monza.

If he had collided with Lewis then he would be banned for several races next season.
He overtook just for un-lap not to overtake for valuable point to 3rd place in WDC.
That was pathetic.

[BugTomek]

No, that was not pathetic - what was pathetic was that Hamilton and Vettel who finished 4th and 5th were slower than a guy who finished 11th.



Kubica said that they had bad info on the conditions on the track (that the second part of it is dry) and that others also go with dry tyres - then there were some problems in the pitstop and that the front wing wasn't adjusted.
On the fact that he couldn't get past Sutil he said that he had problems with 7th gear so on the straights he had to drive with revs-limiter.
So as always he have some excuses

All in all a very poor race for BMW - but still a pretty good season.

[marcinito]

Originally posted by Speed_Racer


Exactly .. he seemed to have some kind of a vendetta against Lewis

Who doesn't?

oops, that must be Glock..

[tre]

no vendetta, he simply had hope of catching 8th place. he's a racing for himself and he's not obligated to care about anyone else's situation. hell it wasn't that far away, afterall he finished 11th.

Also you have to remember that these guys in situations like that don't have a full picture of what's going on, how far away are the others. Hamilton said after the race that he was surprised when the team told him needs to overtake Vettel in that last bit.

[GrzegorzChyla]

here are my three grosze:

Nick and Robert pitted for wets on the same lap, 30 seconds apart

Robert unlapped himself just because he was fast at the moment, just overtook Rosberg and had to be fast to be sure Rosberg does not strike back.

Now I hope I will some day learn at last some of what was behind the scenes during last half season... What has changed after Canada???

anyway - thank you BMW Sauber for a wonderfull year.
For the first time of my life I stood upright in front of a TV set listening to my national anthem :-)

Grzegorz
(grosze - 1/100th of Polish currency - zloty)

[Megan]

Originally posted by MiPe
Had he made right call initially, we would not have this exchange, would we?

What? "Right call initially"? You have no idea what you are talking about.

[noikeee]

Originally posted by tre
no vendetta, he simply had hope of catching 8th place. he's a racing for himself and he's not obligated to care about anyone else's situation. hell it wasn't that far away, afterall he finished 11th.

Also you have to remember that these guys in situations like that don't have a full picture of what's going on, how far away are the others. Hamilton said after the race that he was surprised when the team told him needs to overtake Vettel in that last bit.

When you're quick and have a chance to pass cars ahead, you need to pass them. It's as simple as that.

[outofspace]

Originally posted by Lukin83
- Zientarski, please follow the way of Coulthard

Andrzej Borowczyk please follow them , it is a tragedy

[Sakae]

Originally posted by Megan

What? "Right call initially"? You have no idea what you are talking about.

But maybe I do. Initial correct call by Kubica would have been his choice of different tires than he had started with, thus avoding early pitting mitigating risk of confusion that had followed. This erroneous decision stands at the root of the problem that had followed.

[wingwalker]

Originally posted by BugTomek
that he couldn't get past Sutil he said that he had problems with 7th gear so on the straights he had to drive with revs-limiter.
So as always he have some excuses

Well, I'd trust him on the limited revs thing. I was watching live timing and I couldn't figure how on earth he is able to stay within 0.1-0.2, basically a car, maybe two car lengths in all the traps but still not get him at the end of the straight.

[Megan]

Originally posted by MiPe
But maybe I do. Initial correct call by Kubica would have been his choice of different tires than he had started with, thus avoding early pitting mitigating risk of confusion that had followed. This erroneous decision stands at the root of the problem that had followed.

I did not write about initial call.
I wrote about situation on the final laps. Read again: "Why Heidfeld pitted for wets before Kubica? One lap on wets more and maybe... maybe... Kubica would be 8th."

[barteks]

BMW Sauber F1 Team - Brazilian Grand Prix - Race
11-02-2008 Press Release

Weather: Showers, 26-30°C Air, 20-38°C Track


Interlagos (BR). The BMW Sauber F1 Team had a disappointing final to what was a very successful season. At the Brazilian Grand Prix at Interlagos Nick Heidfeld and Robert Kubica finished tenth and eleventh. For the first time since 34 races (2006 Brazilian Grand Prix) the team failed to score in a race. Kubica finished fourth in the championship behind Kimi Räikkönen, with both of them having scored 75 points. Heidfeld is sixth in the final standings, with 60 points. In the Constructors’ championship the BMW Sauber F1 Team is third (135 points).


Nick Heidfeld: 10th
BMW Sauber F1.08-07 / BMW P86/8
Fastest lap 1:14.652 min on lap 41 (10th fastest overall)
“My biggest problem today was the start. I just had too much wheel spin, so I literally stuck on the spot. Then I had a few good overtaking manoeuvres and gained positions. Later the balance of my car tended to become very difficult and, especially when I was behind Jarno Trulli, I lost downforce. Later in the race I was behind Mark Webber and tried to fight him, which ruined my tyres. When the first rain drops appeared with eight laps to go I gambled and pitted for intermediates. There was nothing to lose. I was tenth, but unfortunately I stayed tenth. Anyway we didn’t have a good race today, but nevertheless we had a good season. Congratulations to the world champions!”


Robert Kubica: 11th
BMW Sauber F1.08-05 / BMW P86/8
Fastest lap 1:14.375 min on lap 61 (9th fastest overall)
“Losing third place in the Drivers’ championship in the last race is definitely not the best situation. We made too many mistakes during the weekend and this is the result. Unfortunately I started on dry tyres, as we had the wrong information about the track conditions. During the race I was stuck behind Adrian Sutil for quite a long time. I managed to make up some positions in the final laps of the race, but it was too late. Congratulations to Ferrari and Lewis Hamilton!”


Mario Theissen (BMW Motorsport Director):
“As last year, it was a dramatic final. Lewis Hamilton clinched his title literally on the last kilometre of this race – congratulations, also to Ferrari! For our team it was a disappointing finish to a very strong season.”


Willy Rampf (Technischer Director):
“For our team this was an end of season to forget. With Robert we gambled at the start with dry tyres, but the track was too wet. Therefore he pitted immediately for a tyre change, and after this found himself at the end of the field. From here there was nothing he could do. Nick lost position right after the start. Even pitting earlier than others at the end of the race did not change the situation. Nevertheless it was a very successful season for our team, and this race doesn’t change this. Congratulations to Lewis Hamilton and to Ferrari for winning the championship.”

[AFCA]

This was the first zero score for the team in two years I believe...

[Rogerek]

Yes, 2006 Brasilian GP was the last without points for BMW.

[whatto999]

Originally posted by AFCA
This was the first zero score for the team in two years I believe...

It's a shame really.

However i expected them as serious WCC/WDC contenders next year.

[barteks]

Kubica was told by the team that everyone had dry tyres under the blankets and that's why they decided to put grooved tyres before formation lap :

Originally posted by Speed_Racer
Backmarker kubica trying dirty moves on Lewis to impress Ferrari??
Nearly cost Lewis the championship there ....

Why backmarker Hamilton overtook race leader Alonso on the last corner in Japan???

Originally posted by wingwalker
I'm very dissapointed with Kubica, he had half of the race to get pass Sutil, who was like 1.5-2.0 slower than him but failed to do so. But how did managed to finish just one position behind Nick? Last time i checked he was way behind him, did Nick spun or what?

Yeah, that's pretty surprising. Having started rom 20th place thanks to ingenious BMW's strategy, he managed to finish behind his team-mate who was 8th on the grid...

[metz]

The car was alsolute sh!t for both drivers this weekend.
Robert had no grip during qualifying.
Nick had no grip at the start and lost 6 positions.
Wrong tyres for Robert starts him last.
No hope for either one this time.
Both drivers made some nice passes.

The only chance they had would have been a solid long wet race.

[bankoq]

Originally posted by whatto999


It's a shame really.

However i expected them as serious WCC/WDC contenders next year.

Sorry, but I don't see indications it is possible.

For 3(!) years in a row BMW car's performance fades in last few races. I'm probably one of not many out there but I claim F1.08 isn't relatively faster car than F1.07 (apart from first 3 races). It's just front runners made much more mistakes than in 2007 and that's why we managed so many podiums this year, otherwise we would gather almost identical amount of points like in 2007.

Look at Nick's number of points and compare it to 2007. Now assuming Nick didn't have qualy problems it doesn't change much because he was many times saved by SC and got big points and probably he wouldn't get more if he started in top10.

The only step they made is massively improved reliability, the car's performance stayed more or less the same as in 2007 while other teams caught up.

I'm also worried that there were several races when both cars were completely nowhere. It didn't happen a single time in case of McLaren or Ferrari in last two years (maybe once with Alonso in 2007).

The drivers were up there but not the team and not the car.

I really hope I'll realize I'm wrong in 2009!

[stonebutter]

Yeah I defnitely don't feel that good about next year. The races after canada became more and more painful to watch. It's really a shame kubica lost 3rd place in the drivers championship - he needs to go to one of the top teams which unfortunately I don't see happening. When his car is on the level with ferrari and mclaren (beginning of the season) he's shown he can compete

I live in the US and on the speed broadcast they were saying that the ferrari and mclarens are about 2.5 seconds faster than they were when they lined up in Australia - that rate of development is almost unheard of, kind of explains why BMW looked like they were standing still.

[kNt]

Well who knows really how much they developped still towards the end. They were quite competitive for the first half but the competition behind them was closer timewise than in 2007. So when they started to fade a little bit they were punished harder.

The braging about KERS is abit wierd thoug. I don't see what they stand to gain from telling everybody that they're strong.

[Lukin83]

Originally posted by kNt
The braging about KERS is abit wierd thoug. I don't see what they stand to gain from telling everybody that they're strong.

Do they? Klein was very optimistic about KERS, but Theissen's words were much more moderate.
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/71859

When asked if he echoed Klein's belief that BMW Sauber were better prepared than other teams, Theissen said: "I have no idea. I don't know how he can say that, as I only know our situation. But we are on schedule and we are reaching the intermediate targets."

Besides:

Originally posted by amazing AFCA in this thread (thanks a lot!)
Translated Q&A with Theissen:

Q: There's a lot of discussions going on about KERS at the moment. Toyota has said they'd possibly only start using halfway through the season. Is it that easy to carry out a change in the design in order for the system to be used whenever you like ?
Theissen: ''Yes, that should be possible. It is obviously dependent on the system you've chosen. If you develop it accordingly (according to the necessities this brings along - AFCA) then you can do that. We have a system like that.''

Q: Do you have to make bigger compromises when you develop such a system ?
Theissen: ''I wouldn't say bigger ones, but you do have to make some compromises. I'd asses a KERS-car as still being competitive even if it drives without KERS.''

Q: Do you think it will make a difference in terms of laptimes ?
Theissen: ''It's dependent on how good the design is if you compare it with a car that hasn't been designed to drive with KERS. You won't achieve the optimal performance if you take away KERS from a car that has been designed for the system. But that's not a big issue.''

Q: What are the prospects for BMW Sauber next season ?
Theissen: ''I think we can be confident. The team has now established itself, we were able to show (we have) a good basis. The development work on the aerodynamics and KERS are going according to schedule. I think we should be strong next year.''

[mariuszek]

So Robert and Nick both lost their places in the standings they have been fighting for so hard all the year
At least the dramatic race ending made up for some of the disappointment with the F1.08's form, or rather lack of it at Interlagos. Now it's time to move on to the 2009 thread guys.

[metz]

There is one more thing I'd like to cover here and it has to do with the performane drop off of the F1.08.
When the car was first introduced it was clear that it was difficult to drive and more difficult to set up.
Both drivers complained that it was twitchy and they would get oversteer and understeer at the same time. The balance seemed all wrong.
The team's explanation was that in order to make a quantum leap in performance they could not adopt an evolutionary process for the new car but needed to come up with something more revolutionary. They claimed that the car will be more difficult at the beginning but will have a wider band of possibilities which would mean they can take the improvements to a higher level.
Well, it sounded good in theory but reality was quite the opposite. As we found, right off the bat, Heidfeld could not get heat into the tyres. We also found that many changes were brought to the car throughout the year and few of them were adopted because most of them did not improve the speed or the handling of the car.
As a result, the team that was second in constructors and first in the drivers championship slid down the performance slope while others like Renault and Toyota and RBR moved up significantly. Renault I can understand. They got an FIA boost with the engine changes allowed. It was a turning point for Alonso. But everyon else moved closer to BMW (well, not William) and the performanc of the team suffered in the second half.
So, was the radical design introduced at the beginning a flop? This wider window of development did not materialize. If it was there, maybe they did bring out more changes than they otherwise could but none of them worked to improve the car.
It's obvious to me that the team did not keep up with the rest of the pack. I don't believe that there was a lack of effort.
Can it be that the fundamental design of the F1.08 was flawed and that the car remained twitchy and difficut to set up right to the end? How can we still have a lack of grip and traction at the last race of the year? This stuff should have been solved long ago and might have been if the design was truly as advanced as first proclaimed.
Everyone on this board talks about how Nick had his worst year ever and how Robert faded to nothing in the second half, from 1st to 4th. I maintain that the drivers had nothing to do with their drop off. In the end, they placed the 6th best car 3rd. That is one hell of an acomplishment.If renault would have a decent 2nd driver, that 3rd constuctors would be in danger.
My contention is that it was not just a second half performance drop off but rather that the fundamental design was flawed so that chages/improvements could not be made.
Any thoughts on this?

[Cadence]

Willy Rampf needs to let go of having complete control over the entire cars technical development. It's just too much for one man. Oversight yes, but not complete micro-management control. I know there had been some talk of this at the start of the season perhaps BMW will now act.

[color]

Originally posted by metz
I maintain that the drivers had nothing to do with their drop off. In the end, they placed the 6th best car 3rd.

...

My contention is that it was not just a second half performance drop off but rather that the fundamental design was flawed so that changes/improvements could not be made.

You, Sir, speak the truth.

[mariuszek]

I think the reason why the team faded off as the season went on is a combination of two factors - a revolutionary design that turned out to be much more difficult to understand than they thought it would be, and putting more effort than previously planned towards next year after Canada. Which factor contributed stronger is impossible to say from our perspective.
I wouldn't call the fundamental F1.08 concept flawed, it was more competitive than the F1.07 at its best after all. For sure it was a very complex concept though. I remember Willy Rampf saying how different the aerodynamics of the car behaved when the wheel covers were mounted, with very different effects appearing, depending on whether they mounted them only at the front, only at the rear or at both ends. Makes you wonder how complex it was. The team probably didn't realize at the beginning how difficult it is to understand, and then develop such a revolutionary and complex concept. Hence the inconsistent form throughout the season and many new parts that didn't improve the car's speed at all.
But I'm also sure that after Canada more effort was allocated towards next year than they previously planned. Not to say there was no effort to improve the current car since then. But the objective of winning a race was met, and remember that since the team's beginning they have always promised us 2009 is the year in which they would challenge for titles. And as the Germans say, Ordnung muss sein.

[shonguiz]

[metz]

Well, mariuszek, I hope you are right about them focusing on 2009 too early.
The flip side of that is that next year's car should then be very advanced.
Let's hope it is not as complex to develop as the .08.

[shonguiz]

Originally posted by Cadence
Willy Rampf needs to let go of having complete control over the entire cars technical development. It's just too much for one man. Oversight yes, but not complete micro-management control. I know there had been some talk of this at the start of the season perhaps BMW will now act.

It's not simple talks, it's a real and definitive decision wanted by rampf him self.

[bankoq]

Originally posted by mariuszek
I wouldn't call the fundamental F1.08 concept flawed, it was more competitive than the F1.07 at its best after all.

Remember that McLaren used wrong setups at first 4 races of the season. That's were BMW could match them. Once they solved setup problems they were on Ferrari level which means faster than BMW by 0.5s or more.

If McLaren started with right setups straight away it would be exactly the same situation as it was in 2007 - Ferrari & McLaren....BMW....rest.

That's why I still claim F1.08 was relatively not faster than F1.07.

[barteks]

BMW Sauber apparently decided to move for Valencia to run private tests from 17th to 19th November...

[shonguiz]

They will test a hybrid car ?

[shonguiz]

On 17th November, Robert Kubica and Christian Klien will start the three-day test programme at the "Circuit de la Comunitat". One day later, Robert will be driving alongside Nick Heidfeld. Nick and Christian complete the session on 19th November.

[potmotr]

Willi Rampf says the F1.08 was something 'very special'.

Specially hard to qualify if your name is Nick Heidfeld.

Rampf: BMW Sauber F1.08 was something 'very special'BMW Sauber enjoyed their best ever Formula One season in 2008, including their first Grand Prix win. Their radical F1.08 machine - and the man behind it, technical director Willy Rampf - played a large part in that success. Its narrow set-up window may have hampered the car’s development later in the season, but its forward-thinking design philosophy helped the team to third place in the constructors’ championship. As he prepares to step into a new role for 2009, Rampf reflects on another year of major achievement for the German-Swiss squad…

Q: Willy, what’s your assessment of the BMW Sauber F1.08?
Willy Rampf: This car was something very special. It was not purely a further development; we opted for a very aggressive approach for the F1.08. This was very important given the goals for the season we had set ourselves, but clearly not without risk. Indeed, at the roll-out the car was still far from its full potential. What followed was a very tough, but also incredibly productive time for us - and by the start of the season we had the car very much on track. In Melbourne Robert (Kubica) was only a hair's breadth away from taking pole position.

Q: What was your reaction to the one-two finish in Canada?
WR: You just can't put it into words. When no other car and no other drivers are better than your two, you have reached your goal. And that applies not only to me, but to the whole team. You mustn't forget that many of the people in the team gave everything over a number of years for the independent Sauber team - without any prospect of getting right to the top on their own merits - and have been part of the BMW Sauber F1 Team from its launch. The one-two in Montreal had a big impact on us all, and not only on the Sunday - it had a sustained effect.

Q: Was it not possible to build on this success and step up another gear over the remainder of the season?
WR: Of course, this success raised expectations both within the team and from the outside. We developed several new parts which produced good results in the wind tunnel. When it came to their performance on the track, however, they did not deliver what they promised. Added to which, the optimum set-up window of the F1.08 was very small. It was not easy to adjust the individual parameters to stay within this window all the time. This was a learning experience, which we will utilise again for the 2009 season.

Q: As for 2009, how will technical responsibility be apportioned?
WR: I have responsibility for the F1.09 concept and, as Technical Coordinator, will also be at the helm for the team's race activities in 2009. The development process and construction of the new car is overseen by Managing Director Walter Riedl, who will continue to head up operations at the Hinwil plant and project management across both locations in 2009. It was important for me to cut down on my workload - this was a personal decision following a long time working flat-out.

[barteks]

Here you can see how the car evolved throughout 2008 season:

http://en.f1-live.co...113142032.shtml