38 replies to this topic

[rosemeyer]

Last nite I was watching a dvd on group B rally cars.What happend to Michèle Mouton after Group B There is very little on the internet.

[RS2000]

Organising the annual, now stadium-based, so-called "Race of Champions" last I heard.

(and never quite recovered from a scare in the SWB Quattro, attempting to overtake my service van which was already pulling out to overtake other traffic between the final stage of the 1984 RAC Rally and the Ruthin service area....allegedly...!)

[Pedro 917]

She was at the Goodwood Festival Of Speed last summer where she took her daughter for a ride.

[CJE]

I wonder if her daughter has plans to begin racing/rallying????

[Jack-the-Lad]

That Audi was an awesome machine. An absolute blur up Pike's Peak.

Jack.

[Fiorentina 1]

I remember when she won pikes peak in 1985. Bobby Unser said some french lady can't have his title so he went after her record in 1986. His Audi looked like a moster with huge wings and twice the HP, the car Mouton was driving was virtually show-room stock. He beat her by 10 seconds. Too bad they both didn't drive the same car; she would have smoked him by 1 minute at least!

She is without a doubt the best female race driver of all time!

[john aston]

Mlle Mouton overtook me on a road section of the RAC rally in mid 80s; I was driving a Golf GTI -quite briskly.After being blitzed by a bellowing 5 cylinder turbo monster I suggested to my passenger that he get out to investigate why we had apparently stopped.
She was the real deal and a very sexy one too.

[Agnis]

Never knew she had a daughter. That's really cool if a lady can win rallies, compete for the world championship, and this didn't hinder her to accomplish everybody's task #1 in this world - having posterity. Unlike many other women racers who I think have just wasted theyr lives and there will be nothing left after them.

[Rob29]

Originally posted by Agnis
N Unlike many other women racers who I think have just wasted theyr lives and there will be nothing left after them.

Can't agree there Agnis If they enjoyed their lives and provided us with entertainment they were certainly not wasted.Most problems faced by the world are due to overpopulation.Those that choose something other than procreation to spend their time on deserve praise not criticisum.

[rx-guru]

She was already at the Pikes Peak in 1984 and won the Open Rally category, together with Fabrizia Pons in an Audi Sport quattro, but with some strange behaviour she was all but a likable person/woman for the Americans… (And in 1985 she went even more naughty!) However, "Mister Rallycross" Martin Schanche was there as well, with his by then quite new Ford Escort Mk3 4WD (with 560+bhp Zakspeed engine and the first ever Xtrac 4WD system). In practise he was much quicker than Mouton and the big Audi Sport team became really nervous. BTW, Schanche was alone, not even one mechanic with him, and had driven his Escort XR3 with the necessary lamps around and Norwegian licence plates on the road from the airport to Pikes Peak and after the event back to the airport again. After about 1/3 of the official race Schanche was clocked 11 seconds faster than Mouton – but only a little later got a puncture (front, right). He pressed on regardless to the finish and was hailed by the mad going commentator as the first racer ever to reach the Pikes Peak summit on three wheels – but his time was absolutely useless of course and the Rally class victory went to Mouton/Pons (Bill Brister was the overall winner that year).

For her 1985 Pikes Peak intermezzo see also: http://www.jcphotosp...session*id*val*

[RS2000]

Originally posted by john aston
She was...very sexy...too.

I would repeat what Pentti Airikkala posted about her on another forum a few months ago on that subject but it was not only highly uncomplimentary but probably actionable!
Interesting to see a second independent post suggesting she did not show appropriate road manners on the RAC Rally.
Have also often heard criticism of her always driving the Quattro on the rev limiter when others didn't.
Very difficult to assess overall as "the greatest female rally driver". If so, it is because of Fiat France 131 Abarth drives before the Quattro. You don't have to subscribe to Walter Rohrl's offensive/sexist "a monkey could win in that car" to accept the Quattro was dominant for 3 years.
I'm still inclined to recognise Pat Moss/Carlsson as the best female rally driver when compared to other contemporary drivers in comparable cars.

[LotusElise]

Originally posted by Fiorentina 1
I remember when she won pikes peak in 1985. Bobby Unser said some french lady can't have his title so he went after her record in 1986. His Audi looked like a moster with huge wings and twice the HP, the car Mouton was driving was virtually show-room stock. He beat her by 10 seconds. Too bad they both didn't drive the same car; she would have smoked him by 1 minute at least!

She is without a doubt the best female race driver of all time!

She is meant to have said to a reporter after Unser's outburst that "if he had any real balls he'd race me back down as well."
I met her last year. Very polite and smaller than I expected.

[roger.daltrey]

I have a simple question on this subject - I know she was a great female rally driver, winning lots of stuff, but I'm unsure if it was on an even playing field ?

Lady golfers get a few yards advantage etc..

In the past they used to have special classes for female rally drivers.

Given she was good, some say the best female, how does she rate against everyone else ?

Forgive me if i've missed something on this....

Thanks
Rog

[LotusElise]

She won four WRC rallies outright, plus more French Championship ones and the 1986 West German Championship. Handicapping had gone the way of the dodo years before. Apart from any perceived car advantage, which applied to Hannu Mikkola and/or Walter Röhrl as well at the time, there were no favours.

[Glengavel]

Her success is even more amazing when you consider that, like all women, some part of her brain is always thinking about shoes!

BTW, that's (Irish comedian) Ardal O'Hanlon's view, not mine! Honest ;)

[RS2000]

Originally posted by roger.daltrey
I have a simple question on this subject - I know she was a great female rally driver, winning lots of stuff, but I'm unsure if it was on an even playing field ?

Lady golfers get a few yards advantage etc..

In the past they used to have special classes for female rally drivers.

Given she was good, some say the best female, how does she rate against everyone else ?

Forgive me if i've missed something on this....

Thanks
Rog

I don't think rallying (at least in living memory) has ever had other than a level playing field between male and female drivers, just a separate ladies award but still having ladies listed in the same overall results. Capacity/FIA Group handicaps yes - up to the mid 60s (including the Monte Carlo Rally for 3 years of Minis dominating).
Yes there was much invective directed her way by certain (better) male rally drivers of the period and yes that was unacceptable on grounds of gender - but it was founded in her having been given one of at one time only two seats in a totally dominant car over some 3 years.
Was she in the top 10 in ability then? Probably no.
Was Pat Moss when at her best? Probably or certainly yes.
Was Louise Aitken? Difficult to assess (as one doing some of the same rallies and once having her disgarded cigarette come through my open window when following her on a road section!). Probably no.

[Fiorentina 1]

Fair question Roger; when she won the World Rally races she won, she beat all the boys from that era. She beat them fair and square to overall victories in the Acropolis, San Remo, Portugese and I think other rallies in the early 80's. She beat guys like Walter Rohrl, Timo Salonen, Ari Vatanen and Henri Toivonen, no advantage, no nothing. I believe she finished second in the World Rally Championship in 1982.

[rx-guru]

Mouton’s results: http://www.rallybase...85&type=profile

[rosemeyer]

Its too bad she was never offered a F1 ride.

[LotusElise]

As far as I know she never did any single-seater racing and was indifferent to the circuit stuff. Having said that, she did win her class at Le Mans in 1975, driving a Moynet.

[962C]

Originally posted by CJE
I wonder if her daughter has plans to begin racing/rallying????

She may already have. If I recall correctly, Michèle Mouton mentioned in an interview shortly after retiring that she became pregnant before the end of her last full season, when she won the German Rallye Championship in 1986.

[RS2000]

Originally posted by Fiorentina 1
Fair question Roger; when she won the World Rally races she won, she beat all the boys from that era. She beat them fair and square to overall victories in the Acropolis, San Remo, Portugese and I think other rallies in the early 80's. She beat guys like Walter Rohrl, Timo Salonen, Ari Vatanen and Henri Toivonen, no advantage, no nothing. I believe she finished second in the World Rally Championship in 1982.

I can't possibly agree with that. Audi should have won every rally it entered in 1981, 82 and 83. That it didn't was partly down to some attrocious management/servicing on events but a second driver from within the top few in the world would have helped.

[Pavel Lifintsev]

I remember Michèle talking to auto motor und sport magazine about her years at Audi: ''I knew only a few German words then: kaputt, keine Kupplung, Scheisse...'' (it's over, no clutch, ****). Knowing her temperament, the last one would have easily replaced all the others.

What I want to point actually is that certain Mr. Röhrl probably had much less communication troubles while driving for Opel and Audi (although this wasn't of course the reason why she lost that 1982 champ).

I wouldn't also compare her and some others' performances. What Pat Moss/Carlsson drove I think was pretty different to those Gr. B monsters.

[rx-guru]

No one less than the great Tommi Mäkinen once ranked Pernilla Walfridsson (wife of Petter Solberg, daughter of Per-Inge [aka "Pi"] Walfridsson, ex-Volvo factory driver, 1980 FIA European RX champion, 4th and 6th overall of the 1973 respectively 1974 RAC Rally with a Volvo 142 "tank") as the second fastest female Rally driver to Michèle Mouton… Should read: even some of the best Rally drivers ever rate Mouton as the Rally woman number one.

[RS2000]

Originally posted by .ru
What Pat Moss/Carlsson drove I think was pretty different to those Gr. B monsters.

and therefore, arguably, success was more down to the driver than the car?

I clearly referred to status in different eras, just as those who seek to compare Fangio with Senna should do.
It is impossible to compare between eras on results alone. Just as I will always rank Timo Makinen at his peak as the greatest rally driver of all because contemporary top drivers thought so, I also believe Pat Moss was accepted by her peers at her peak as one of the small band of top rally "brothers". I do not believe Michele Mouton was ever similarly accepted on ability alone. I have already mentioned one aspect of her driving the Audi (on the rev limiter) that constantly drew negative attention in period. I have to ponder how close some of those commenting were to rallying at the time or whether history is being influenced by contemporary media spin.
Results are what history recalls. I remember Dennis Jenkinson once writing that history might later show the most successful sports car drivers of the mid 60s era to be Rico Steineman/Dieter Spoery because of the number of class wins recorded. The most successful rally driver of all time in terms of International results might be Gilbert Staepelaere - an excellent tarmac driver - but bare results do not always indicate the level of opposition faced in the events contested.
I have to emphasise again: apart from the odd tarmac rally that particularly suited the Lancia 037, Audi should have won all the events it contested in 81, 82 and 83. You then only have a valid comparison between team mates, just as when one car dominates F1.

[wolf sun]

Originally posted by RS2000


I would repeat what Pentti Airikkala posted about her on another forum a few months ago on that subject but it was not only highly uncomplimentary but probably actionable!

Oh dear, oh dear... :

[rosemeyer]

Thank you again gentlemen once again you have come to the forefront to fill in all the gaps. Thanks again Rosey

[brucemoxon]

I was always rather a fan. She had a 'go for broke' attitude and got great results, no matter whether that second chromosome was an X or a Y.

And her daughter? Fruit fell close to the tree there, didn't it?


Bruce Moxon

[sterling49]

Originally posted by brucemoxon
I was always rather a fan. She had a 'go for broke' attitude and got great results, no matter whether that second chromosome was an X or a Y.

And her daughter? Fruit fell close to the tree there, didn't it?


Bruce Moxon

I have read this thread with great interest, I too was quite a fan of Michele, although that judgement was made whilst watching her drive in the forests, I never met her, or competed against her as some other members. I really thought it was great that she took the fight to the guys....and sometimes won!!!

[john aston]

Originally posted by RS2000


I would repeat what Pentti Airikkala posted about her on another forum a few months ago on that subject but it was not only highly uncomplimentary but probably actionable!
Interesting to see a second independent post suggesting she did not show appropriate road manners on the RAC Rally.
Have also often heard criticism of her always driving the Quattro on the rev limiter when others didn't.
Very difficult to assess overall as "the greatest female rally driver". If so, it is because of Fiat France 131 Abarth drives before the Quattro. You don't have to subscribe to Walter Rohrl's offensive/sexist "a monkey could win in that car" to accept the Quattro was dominant for 3 years.
I'm still inclined to recognise Pat Moss/Carlsson as the best female rally driver when compared to other contemporary drivers in comparable cars.

Ermm - where did I say she was driving inappropriately? She was driving bloody quickly because that's what's rally drivers did then.It was part of the deal- you went from stage to stage and you wree overtaken by your heroes.CF current soi - disant WRC- pay too much to stand in a pen in bloody Wales and watch underpowered apologies for rallly cars hiss by. And as for hitting rev limiter- yeah she was probably guilty of that too.She was obviously hopeless.

[RS2000]

Originally posted by john aston


Ermm - where did I say she was driving inappropriately? She was driving bloody quickly because that's what's rally drivers did then.It was part of the deal- you went from stage to stage and you wree overtaken by your heroes.CF current soi - disant WRC- pay too much to stand in a pen in bloody Wales and watch underpowered apologies for rallly cars hiss by. And as for hitting rev limiter- yeah she was probably guilty of that too.She was obviously hopeless.

If you were driving quickly, as you say, and were "blitzed by a bellowing monster" then the driver of that car was driving inappropriately. As a competitor on the RAC at the time (who was forced to occasionally drive "inappropriately" because the organisers fouled up the road timing when heavy traffic conditions were known to be likely) (nothing changes - the Lombard Revival did it last year too) I am only too well aware of it happening. The difference is that Mouton, along with a few others was known for driving "inappropriately" on road sections when it wasn't necessary. That sort of occurrence is one reason ( not the main one or the only one of course) you have emasculated International Rallies today - which you rightly imply are unworthy of the name. I have already mentioned one instance when my service crew encountered her "behaving badly". There are others.
For pity's sake...it was a widely held view within the sport at the time that she did not warrant the Audi drive on ability alone. Accept it and please don't try and re-write history along the lines of the popular media. She was good but she was not as good as too many now seem to want to claim, seemingly from some sort of misplaced chivalry.

[john aston]

She wasn't Walter Rohrl nor Hannu Mikkola and I was aware that many thought she 'didn't get her drive on talent alone'. Possibly - which would give her something in common with many drivers in the top level of motorsport then. She was quick ,she mastered a brutally quick rally car well enough to win WRC rounds which is good enough for me .And as for this bollocks about driving too quickly on the road ...sorry but I watched rallying for a very long time and this was part of the deal.I have also been overtaken at some point by many 'names' from that era and I can certainly remember Messrs Pond , Airakkala and many others not driving like grannies.
And I am not rewriting history - I am merely recounting events which I experienced and passing fairly informed comment I hope. Final comment - I think the real problem re inappropriate driving lay with some service crews and many spectators- that is what pissed off the locals where I live (about 200 yards from a North York Moors forest stage ).

[RS2000]

"Watched" being the operative word...I strongly suggest you do not seek to dictate to those who "did", not stood and watched, over some 30 odd years.
If they have a different view from you they are not going to change it because you choose to sink to the use offensive language about their views. Other people have different opinions. You can express strong disagreement if you wish, just as I have done regarding this unbalanced thread not reflecting the widespread agreement at the time. Otherwise live with it. Such language may well be appropriate for the non-personalised nonsense emanating from so-called governing bodies etc. I am all for that. What I, for one, will not tollerate is your directing it personally. I think you would be far more at home on "Racing Comments" forum.
We must despair for the future of the sport when those who still think it was alright to terrorise the population still get air space today.

[RA Historian]

Gentlemen, gentlemen, let's stop sniping and get back to a reasoned discussion, if we may.

[Cris]

+1

Originally posted by RA Historian
Gentlemen, gentlemen, let's stop sniping and get back to a reasoned discussion, if we may.

[KJJ]

I know we don't like lists but a few years ago Motor Sport did a list of the top twenty rally drivers, which at least had the virtue of being based on the votes of twenty of the most distinguished practioners of the sport, the very best drivers, team managers etc. If I remember correctly Mouton came 12th and Pat Moss 18th. I wonder if there is another sport where women could achieve such a high ranking against their male competitors.

[john aston]

Oh dear - if what I have posted is percieved as offensive then all I can say is that this was not the intention.I do not dictate , just try to express my views.And I do not quite follow the argument that because I did not compete - just stood and watched (yes, guilty as charged ) - what I have to say about a driver's reputation is invalid.
Whatever- I rated MM highly but I suspect that Pat Moss- Carlsson deserves even higher accolade; and Ms Louise Aitken Walker was no mean pedaller either.Must be Duns DNA at work ?Dragracing too has its femal stars but with the odd exception- Desire W., Danica P- there are very few really noteworthy female circuit drivers . Will this change in the future ? I don't think it will - one only has to look through Autosport to see what a timewarp motor sport operates within.I mean ..Hawaiian Tropic girls...all abit 1972 isn't it?

[Pavel Lifintsev]

RS2000, sorry for the late response, I visit this message board only a couple times per week.

Neither I am underrating Mrs. Moss-Carlsson nor willing to proclaim Mlle Mouton ''the greatest female rally driver of all time''. My point was exactly what you've said: it makes no sense to compare different eras, one will simply fail while trying to compare incomparable. To me they both were clearly the best, each in her period of course.

I think you're also correct in saying that Pat was accepted by her rivals as one of the top drivers while Michèle wasn't, but... Maybe it's because times [and people] have changed a lot? It was the case in grand prix racing, just take a look into the paddock of 1960s and 80s (not saying about today's circus maximus). Forty years ago you wouldn't probably have heard that ''monkey'' sentence even if Pat Moss alone would have got the very best machine.

A totally dominant car? Not in 1981 for sure, the Quattros were simply underdeveloped then. Although 4WD was the great advantage, the Audis constantly suffered from overweight as well as unreliability, and their handling characteristics hardly were brilliant, especially of the latter S1/S2 versions. However Mouton mastered them like only a few others did. I'd guess it wasn't easier than driving those Minis, Cortinas or Fulvias. Even the Austin-Healey 3000 with its 150bhp was probably not as uncontrollable as the Gr. B car of the mid-1980s.

Driving on the rev-limiter? I've heard, in Quattro you should stay over 4000rpm to get most out of the turbocharger. Perhaps other drivers managed it better, i.e. without over-revving. Yet I think that calling her ''engines' burner'', as Mouton was known due to several DNFs in 1983, is an exaggeration.

Well, she wasn't perfect, that's true. Fiery, often inconsistent, sometimes not careful enough with the hardware. Still Michèle was the real fighter, always pushed hard and seemed absolutely fearless! And in my view she definitely deserved her place amongst the rallying elite of the time.

[JSF]

Michele herself was quite open about her skill level and knowledge not being at the level of the likes of Mikkola and Blomquist. I've got some good video footage about the period with her and Hannu talking about the early Audi days and how Hannu was coaching her to improve. Hannu is very complimentary about Michelle and how he saw it sudenly click into place and she was able to start competing at a good level. There was no hiding of the fact she needed to learn, but there is also the acknoledgement that she did manage to get to grips with the car and put in a decent performance.

Certainly the early Quatro's were not a very good rally car, they had big problems with managing the underbonnet heat, they were excluded from the Acropolis Rally when the team removed the headlamps at service in order to deal with the heat issues. They also had instances of the oil temperatures going balistic and had underbonnet fires mid stage when the turbo temps went out of control. On one rally Michelle had to drive the car into a lake to put an engine fire out, posibly the same rally they resorted to removong the headlamps.

Michele was very much the less important driver to the team effort, so when the SWB car was introduced she ended up driving that as Hannu didnt want to drive it due to it's evil handling, Hannu kept the LWB car for himself, it wasnt really until the last generation of the car that the Quatro really worked without problems.

I think Michele did a great job under the circumstances, it's a pity she didnt stay in the sport longer, i recall at the time she stopped driving mid season to nurse her father who was very ill, that was the official reason she stopped anyway.