14 replies to this topic

[chuckbrandt]

For almost a year now I have been trying to help the owner of what appears to be the chassis of a ’64 Shelby Team King Cobra identify what car it is. We have tried most everything we can think of and would like to ask this community for help. We need a breakthrough and are hoping that someone here will have a key photograph that ties this frame to a particular car. What I’d like to do is present all the evidence we have to date in this thread and see what we can come up with together.

Above all the owner wants to arrive at the truth about this car. I'm convinced it is a shelby car but can't figure out which one it is. I am of course very excited to have another king cobra out in the world.

Also, I have hundreds of photos, if you feel any particular point needs more documentation than what I put on at first just say so, I'll do what I can to make it clear.

Thanks in advance for whatever help you can offer.

Chuck Brandt

[chuckbrandt]

Why we think this is a '64 Shelby Team Car:

There were 3 ’64 team cars

CM/4/64 had the modified nose with bottom radiator opening and ’63 style tail section. Raced by Richie Ginther #92 at Riverside in ’64 and by Ronnie Bucknum #195 at Laguna Seca

CM/5/64 had the modified nose and flat spoiler rear bodywork with Cortina taillights. The nose was damaged in practice at Riverside and replaced with an unmodified unpainted nose for the race. It was repaired for Laguna Seca.
Raced by Bob Bondurant #93 at Riverside and #96 at Laguna Seca.

CM/6/64 had the modified nose and flat spoiler rear bodywork with Cortina taillights.
At Riverside it had a broad white area painted on the nose coming out of the stripe / roundel.
Raced by Parnelli Jones #94 at Riverside and #98 at Laguna Seca. It crashed at Laguna Seca and was badly burnt, bodywork was destroyed.

These 3 cars all had a unique frame modification. Fabricated perforated panels were bolted into the frame above the transaxle to make it easier to remove it. This frame has these unique pieces.






Although the previous owner had some updates done to the brakes, shocks, engine, exhaust, and rear uprights, the original parts were retained and are appropriate.

Original Tach with Shelby logo inside is included with the car.

Original engine with front mounted tach drive, webers, Shelby style heat shield, Shelby style bundle of snakes exhaust also came with the car.

We also have a unique Hayden Transcooler oil cooler that appears to match one installed on the Bondurant car at Laguna Seca. Shelby mechanic Frank Lance confirms that is the type used by Shelby.





At Laguna Seca all 3 team cars got full width roll bars installed during the weekend. There are ground off spots on this frame and cut outs in the rear aluminum panel where this roll bar would have been.

[chuckbrandt]

What we know of the history of the car:

The earliest history we have on this car is that Ed Felter bought it from someone near Puget Sound Washington. It had a McLaren Mk1 body on it. Ed and mechanic Bob Habermehl raced the car in california for a couple of years and sold it in 1971 to a fellow from oregon or washington who intended to drive it home. The last they saw of it was it driving up the 405.




One car that it is tempting to make a connection with, given the reference to the Seattle area, is an ex-shelby car that was raced by Terry Kniss. Terry bought the car from Shelby and it was delivered by Wally Peat who also worked on the car having relocated to Seattle at the time. Terry says he sold the car to a reclusive young man near Kent Washington. The car had been in a couple of shunts and a fire but it retained at least the front of the original aluminum body when Terry sold it.

If this mysterious individual put a mclaren body on it we'd have something. The problem is that we have very few pictures of the Kniss car, and we don't know for sure which car he got from shelby. Some say he got CM/4/64 and some say he got CM/6/64. The Kniss car was yellow and had a large snorkle air scoop.



If somehow we could find more pictures of the kniss car with it's original bodywork or better yet the right side rear frame, that would be great. It would really help identify which car he got and maybe tie it to the car in question.

[chuckbrandt]

One feature of this frame that may make it unique is that it runs the coolant through the frame whereas CM/4/64 did not. Specifically it runs through the top left main frame tube and the lower right. If we can show one of the other team cars does run coolant through the frame this way that would be huge.

CM/4/64 coolant does not run on the upper left tube.

Rather it runs in a separate pipe / hose on the upper right side.





Interestingly the car that Lothar Motschenbacher had in '65 which is thought to have been CM/6/64
didn't have it's coolant run on the upper right side in an external tube / hose.


We really need to see the upper left side frame of CM/5/64 and CM/6/64.

[chuckbrandt]

The fuel tanks are one way I have found to track the individual cars. Each crew chief modified the fuel tanks on their car for more capacity and each did it in a slightly different way.

CM/4/64 had a tall horizontal fuel filler on the right side.


CM/5/64 had an angled filler that was further forward and frenched into the front fender.


I have not found a picture of CM/6/64's fuel tanks to know if they were modified at all. I also don't see an external fuel filler cap on the body but that could be just the angles I have.

The fuel tank leads me to believe that Steve Dole owned CM/4/64 in the early 80s.


And likewise that the ex-Bondurant CM/5/64 raced at Nelson Ledges in Ohio in the late 60s.


Unfortunately this car appears to have only slightly modified Cooper tanks.

I realize I shouldn't put too much weight into the tank argument because they could possibly be moved from car to car. But the fact that they are closely fit around the frame members and require different bodywork suggest to me that moving them would not be a straightforward easy task.

[chuckbrandt]

There also is some confusing evidence that there may have been an extra frame.

Terry Kniss had one of the '64 cars in '65 and '66.

Lothar Motschenbacher raced one of the '64 cars in '65 but then it went back to Shelby.

In March of '66 Oscar Kovaleski bought 2 complete cars and a spare frame.

He remembers that they sold off the two complete cars pretty quickly and used the spare frame to fix up his ex Penske/Wintersteen hill climb car.

Here is a shot of the hill climb car with a king cobra frame, note no upper left coolant routing.


It seems like to me at this point we have one extra frame with the perforated transaxle braces.

[raceannouncer2003]

Just came across this (as I was looking for something else, of course!)

CP & Autoweek, April 2, 1966, Western Edition, Page A:

"Musical Cars Ends As Season Begins"
by Bill Sendelback
"...(Monte) Shelton is rumored to be looking for a King Cobra. The Lothar Motschenbacher machine was taken from under his nose by a pit crew member of the Alan Green prepared Jerry Grant driven Lotus 19 effort..."

That would have had to be Terry Kniss.

Vince H.

[chuckbrandt]

Thanks Vince. But I'm not sure I follow the text. The Lothar Motschenbacher car went back to Shelby because Lothar's sponsor didn't pay for it. Are you saying that is the car that went to Kniss? Who is Monte Shelton?

Thanks, Chuck

[raceannouncer2003]

Originally posted by chuckbrandt
Thanks Vince. But I'm not sure I follow the text. The Lothar Motschenbacher car went back to Shelby because Lothar's sponsor didn't pay for it. Are you saying that is the car that went to Kniss? Who is Monte Shelton?

Thanks, Chuck

My understanding of the article quote would be that Monte Shelton had his eye on the Motschenbacher King Cobra from 1965, but that Kniss got it instead. Kniss had crewed for Jerry Grant.

Monte Shelton? He has Monte Shelton Jaguar in Portland, Oregon. He started racing in the 60's in a Sprite. Raced ex-Hollywood Sports Cars Healey, Cobra, Lola T70 Chevrolet, Porsche 906, McLaren M1B Chevrolet, Lola T163 Chevrolet, McLaren M8F Chevrolet, Eagle-Chev Formula 5000, plus many more Porsches. Still runs in some historics. At the time of this article, he would have sold his Cobra (ex-Parsons), and apparently ended up with a Lola T70 rather than the King Cobra. I have his contact info if you want it.

Vince H.

[chuckbrandt]

I see. I would like to talk to Monte, please forward his contact info. I have the week between Christmas and New Years off so I hope to get some work done on the book.

We bought my wife a '75 BMW 2002 so I've been spending some time fixing stuff on it to get it "wife / road worthy".

Thanks, Chuck

[S&M Minis]

Chuck,

This doesn't help with the car you are trying to ID, but I see that you have identified the car below as CM/5/64 as raced at Nelson Ledges in the late 60's.

(Picture originally posted by Chuck Brandt)


This appears to be the same car as shown in the two pictures I posted on the Shelby King Cobra thread about a year ago. These were also taken at the Ledges.




A year ago we were listing that car as "unknown", but it appears you have made a definitive ID.

Earlier this evening I posted the three following pictures of the Koveleski Cooper on your thread about CM/3/63. These are from Cumberland 1966 and Watkins Glen USRRC 1967. I'm not quite up to speed on all the info provided so far, so I'm not even going to guess which car this is. Sorry to be double-posting pictures, too many threads on one topic!

[chuckbrandt]

Randy,

Great Catch!!! yes that is clearly the same car. I've lost contact with the person who provided the Nelson Ledges pictures and haven't been able to get any more info on them. So where / when were these pictures taken?

I think I can fill you in on the Penske/Wintersteen/Kovaleski car. It was sold to Penske without serial number and with unique rear body work. It was prepared for Nassau '63 by Jack Deren and others with a small block chevy cross ram webers and colotti transaxle. Penske won the Texas 5 Lap race in it.



George Wintersteen bought the car, painted it green with white stripes and still had the unique tail section. He ran it at Riverside and Mosport in '64. In '65 it was still with Wintersteen but painted white with a large rectangular radiator opening and highly modified tail section.

Oscar Kovaleski bought it from Wintersteen and used it as a hill climb car. Oscar's Mechanic, Jack Deren, again prepared the car, this time with small block chevy and McKee transaxle. At some point Oscar wrecked the car and they replaced the frame with a spare frame he bought from Shelby.

That's about all I know about that car. It's very confusing because Penske also owned CM/4/62 which ended up with Sherm Decker.

Chuck

[S&M Minis]

Chuck,

The pictures I posted last week of the ex-Bondurant CM/5/64 car (#7 ASR, behind the Lang Cooper) were taken at Nelson Ledges in the late 60's. I'll dig out the original prints and sift through the Big Box O' Pit Passes to see if I can get a more accurate date. (And the wife will roll her eyes when I take out yet another Big Box O' Crap that she feels should have been trashed decades ago.) I have a gut feeling my pictures were taken at the same event as the picture you posted of #7 with the body off. It has that gawd-awful August-in-Ohio look to it, just waiting for the tall grass to ignite. Notice the course worker watering the grid to hold down the dust in my pictures.

Recognizing that Oscar Kovalesi appears to have had enough bits to make several Monacos, do you think that his "hillclimb" car is the same as the one I photographed at Cumberland and the Glen? The black and white picture you posted of the "hillclimb" car shows a 4-into-1 exhaust system while my shots clearly show an 8-pipe caliope exhaust system. Possibly variations in the life of a single car.

Your efforts to track the history of these cars is appreciated. I was always attracted to the Monacos as they moved to club racing, cars too tough to die. The thought never crossed my mind that the #7 at the Ledges was an ex-King Cobra, or I would have paid more attention to it!

[chuckbrandt]

You are right about Oscar having a lot of Monaco parts, in fact he advertised in competition press to that effect. But I think he only kept and maintained one of the cars, through a couple of frames and various body modifications. At least that the way he and Jack Deren tell it. Neither of them remember very much about the the king cobras that passed through their shop, they sold them very quickly after getting them from Shelby.

It is very likely that the Nelson Ledges car was sold by Oscar and was one of the two king cobras he got, but again I've sent him pictures and he doesn't remember it. My current gut feeling, is that CM/4/64 and CM/5/64 were sold to Oscar and then quickly resold. I also believe CM/6/64 went to Terry Kniss (after it came back from Lothar Motschenbacher).

Thanks for your efforts to look up the dates, I'm very anxious to hear what you come up with.

Chuck

[jwaterhouse71]

Randy,

Great Catch!!! yes that is clearly the same car. I've lost contact with the person who provided the Nelson Ledges pictures and haven't been able to get any more info on them. So where / when were these pictures taken?

I think I can fill you in on the Penske/Wintersteen/Kovaleski car. It was sold to Penske without serial number and with unique rear body work. It was prepared for Nassau '63 by Jack Deren and others with a small block chevy cross ram webers and colotti transaxle. Penske won the Texas 5 Lap race in it.



George Wintersteen bought the car, painted it green with white stripes and still had the unique tail section. He ran it at Riverside and Mosport in '64. In '65 it was still with Wintersteen but painted white with a large rectangular radiator opening and highly modified tail section.

Oscar Kovaleski bought it from Wintersteen and used it as a hill climb car. Oscar's Mechanic, Jack Deren, again prepared the car, this time with small block chevy and McKee transaxle. At some point Oscar wrecked the car and they replaced the frame with a spare frame he bought from Shelby.

That's about all I know about that car. It's very confusing because Penske also owned CM/4/62 which ended up with Sherm Decker.

Chuck

this posting puts CM/4/62 with Sherm Decker in 1965. I beleive that the car was Ford powered and had a Huffaler transaxle. Where has this car gone?