58 replies to this topic

[etceterini.com]

Here are the three I know about:

[vintageautomobilia]

Cliff,

I think there were only two Abarth 205A cars built - you have them pictured above in photos #1 and #3. These cars were built in 1950 and 1951 - At least these are the only two known.

The car in photo #2 is NOT a 205A, it is the Fiat-Abarth 1100-103 Ghia coupe of 1953. At the 1953 Turin Motor Show it was displayed as "The new Fiat 1100 Abarth Sport, Ghia Edition". There was also a Simca 9 Sport version of this car. Boano is credited for both car's design and apparently only these two cars were built.

[JB Miltonian]

And 205101 had the "streamliner" body on it at one time?

[vintageautomobilia]

Just so nobody is confused: In 1953, Boano was the main designer (and part owner) of Ghia. In 1955 he was forced out by Luigi Segre and Boano opened his own carrozzeria. Hence, the 1953 coupes are Ghia and the Abarth 207A of 1955 is Boano.

[vintageautomobilia]

Originally posted by JB Miltonian
And 205101 had the "streamliner" body on it at one time?

One of the 205A cars did. Probably 205101. This was really just streamlined nose and tail pieces attached to the car, rather than a whole different body.

[dretceterini]

I thought one of the cars was a 204A and the other was a 205A (different chassis)....or was there a 204A coupe PLUS two 205A coups?

[etceterini.com]

Do we know where the green one is? And are there any pictures
or more info on it out there??

[SHRAEL]

this should work - and i assume its not a copywrite violation as it is writeup is open to the public:

http://www.sportscar...uly/Etceterini/

[dretceterini]

The car is probably worth $500,000+ restored, so $100,000 was a pretty good bargain.

[vintageautomobilia]

Originally posted by dretceterini
I thought one of the cars was a 204A and the other was a 205A (different chassis)....or was there a 204A coupe PLUS two 205A coups?

The red car in the photos, if it is chassis n. 205101, is a 205A. The green car in the photos, if it is chassis n. 205102, is also a 205A. As far as I know, these two are the only known 205A cars. They have a boxed flat- sheet steel chassis frame similar to that of the 207A. 208A, 209A, 210A, the Abarth 1500 Bertone coupe (sold to Packard), the Abarth 2000 Ghia coupe, and maybe a couple of others I've forgotten. This boxed flat-sheet steel chassis type appears to have started in 1951 with the 205.

The similar bodied 204A coupe raced in 1950 presumably had a chassis based on the TUBULAR chassis of the 204, and probably would have had a chassis number stating with 204---. Supposedly one of these had the streamlined nose and tail. I say "presumably", "probably", and "supposedly" because no 204A coupes seem to exist - at least none with a 204 type chassis.

[dretceterini]

Originally posted by vintageautomobilia


The red car in the photos, if it is chassis n. 205101, is a 205A. The green car in the photos, if it is chassis n. 205102, is also a 205A. As far as I know, these two are the only known 205A cars. They have a boxed flat- sheet steel chassis frame similar to that of the 207A. 208A, 209A, 210A, the Abarth 1500 Bertone coupe (sold to Packard), the Abarth 2000 Ghia coupe, and maybe a couple of others I've forgotten. This boxed flat-sheet steel chassis type appears to have started in 1951 with the 205.

The similar bodied 204A coupe raced in 1950 presumably had a chassis based on the TUBULAR chassis of the 204, and probably would have had a chassis number stating with 204---. Supposedly one of these had the streamlined nose and tail. I say "presumably", "probably", and "supposedly" because no 204A coupes seem to exist - at least none with a 204 type chassis.

That's what I thought....the 204 has a tube chassis and the 205, 207, 208 and 209 have platform chassis...the question of the day is was there a 203 or 206??

[etceterini.com]

So, which frame is this and why is it not a 205a coupe??

[dretceterini]

It's the Boano designed Fiat-Abarth 1100-103 Ghia coupe of 1953, but I don't know if it even had a Tipo number...I have never seen the chassis plate....could it be the Tipo 206????

Didn't Newt Coleman own (owns?) that car?

[etceterini.com]

It now belongs to Howard Banasek and will be at Amelia in 2010.
Do you know of any period pictures of the car?? I'll find out if it
has a chassis plate...Is this the same frame of the 207?

[dretceterini]

Originally posted by etceterini.com
It now belongs to Howard Banasek and will be at Amelia in 2010.
Do you know of any period pictures of the car?? I'll find out if it
has a chassis plate...Is this the same frame of the 207?

The design looks similar, but I think the car is bigger than a 205 or a 207/208/209

[vintageautomobilia]

Originally posted by etceterini.com
[B]So, which frame is this and why is it not a 205a coupe??

When Pat Braden wrote his Abarth book there wasn't a whole lot of Abarth information available, and he did the best he could. Pat called this car a 205A in his book, and he also called it the oldest known Abarth car. I knew Pat and he was a great guy, but unfortunately he was mistaken on both points. Abarth and Ghia themselves called Howard's car "The new Fiat 1100 Abarth Sport, Ghia edition" and its chassis frame is that of the Fiat 1100-103 on which this Ghia coupe is based. The confusion might stem from the fact that the Fiat 1100-103 also had a boxed flat-sheet steel frame which looks similar to the Abarth (and the Siata Daina, for that matter). For many years, all the magazine writers and even AUTOMOBILE QUARTERLY wrote that the Abarth 207A used a stock Fiat 1100-103 frame, which is now known to be totally incorrect.

[dretceterini]

IMO, the Ghia and the Renault from the same time period aren't really "true" Abarths...they are a special bodied Fiat 1100/103 and a special bodied Renault Fregate, with some Abarth modifications...

[etceterini.com]

What engine did Howard's car have?? The same Cisitalia unit as the other
coupes?

[JB Miltonian]

Cliff, did you get my PM about the other 205A?

[dretceterini]

Originally posted by etceterini.com
What engine did Howard's car have?? The same Cisitalia unit as the other
coupes?

I'm not sure, as one of the areodynamic Savonuzzi 202 coupes with tailfins was a standard 1100 motor (1089cc) and the other was bored out to something like 1250cc. I understand some of the Abarth 204 siders had motors bored out to just under 1300cc..

[etceterini.com]

Fiat 1100 engine??

Cliff, did you get my PM about the other 205A?

I just did and will email you.

[dretceterini]

Originally posted by etceterini.com
Fiat 1100 engine??

Cliff, did you get my PM about the other 205A?

I just did and will email you.

Yes, the Cisitalia motor is basically a modified Fiat 1100, with Cisitalia "hot rod" components....in the same way a pushrod Stanguellini 750 or 1100 motor is really a modified Fiat Topolino or 1100 motor.

[CherylB]

Here is one more...Abarth 205A 103

[dretceterini]

Originally posted by CherylB
Here is one more...Abarth 205A 103

Are you sure? That looks like 205101, the Scott Emsley car, before it was restored...


Also found this which is interesting. It appears one of the 207s went to Buenos Aires in 1955!
Jorge B. Saggese, Fiat-Abarth 207, Sports under 1.5 liter, DNF, engine

[CherylB]

Scotts car was much worse off than this one, which sits, just as you see it, in our garage. It is 103.

[JB Miltonian]

Thank you, Cheryl! Could you share with us the story of how you came to own the car? Where was it?

[CherylB]

My husband, Ted, Bought the car in 1972 from a man in Del Mar California, were Ted was living at the time. He had been familiar with the car, which the owner drove regularly. The car was offered to Ted to buy several times over a few years, but Ted never had the money. Finally as Ted was preparing to move to Washington State, the offer was made to buy the car for just $750. Appearantly the wife was theatening to have it towed to the junk yard!!! The car has remained unrestored all these years.
The really interesting part of the story is that a friend of Ted's in CA just happened to be neighbors with the man who restored Scott's car. This friend recognized the car and put Ted and Mr. Parker together on the phone. Scott's car was in very sad shape and missing all the little bits, so Scott and Mr. Parker flew up here and used this car to figure out several things about the restoration of 101. Now, try to figure out the odds of those 2 getting together!

[etceterini.com]

Cheryl,
Great car! You should bring it to Amelia Island in 2010, Scott's car will be there!
Let's get them together!

Do you have any more pictures??

Also, this proves there are more than 2 205a's because of the green one that was sold
in the auction in 2004 is not this car (?)....

[Todd]

Originally posted by CherylB
Here is one more...Abarth 205A 103

I recognize the 300SL, and what may well be the car that starred in Hardcastle and McCormack, but what kind of car sits right behind the Abarth?

[vintageautomobilia]

Originally posted by etceterini.com
Cheryl,
Great car! You should bring it to Amelia Island in 2010, Scott's car will be there!
Let's get them together!

Do you have any more pictures??

Also, this proves there are more than 2 205a's because of the green one that was sold
in the auction in 2004 is not this car (?)....

OK, I'm going to go out on a limb here: After really looking at it and checking all my reference books (and no matter what is was called at auction in 2004) I don't believe the green car really is an Abarth 205A. I am quite certain the green car is actually a Cisitalia 33DF Valoradente. Based on the new Fiat 1100-103 of 1953 the 33DF carried on the basic body styling of the 205A. Fewer than 20 33DF cars were built in 1953 and 1954.

In 1957, Carlo Dusio's Cisitalia Company brought out two models similar to the 33DF, called the 35DF 1250 and the 36DF 1100. These types ammounted to only about three or four and a 1100 version did exist in Brazil. (As per CISITALIA by Nino Balestra and Cesare DeAgostino)

Cheryl & Ted's car (205-003) is definitely one of the 205A Abarths. Which brings up the question: If Scott's car is 205-001, then is 205-002 still missing?

[dretceterini]

Originally posted by vintageautomobilia




OK, I'm going to go out on a limb here: After really looking at it and checking all my reference books (and no matter what is was called at auction in 2004) I don't believe the green car really is an Abarth 205A. I am quite certain the green car is actually a Cisitalia 33DF Valoradente. Based on the new Fiat 1100-103 of 1953 the 33DF carried on the basic body styling of the 205A. Fewer than 20 33DF cars were built in 1953 and 1954.

In 1957, Carlo Dusio's Cisitalia Company brought out two models similar to the 33DF, called the 35DF 1250 and the 36DF 1100. These types ammounted to only about three or four and a 1100 version did exist in Brazil. (As per CISITALIA by Nino Balestra and Cesare DeAgostino)

Cheryl & Ted's car (205-003) is definitely one of the 205A Abarths. Which brings up the question: If Scott's car is 205-001, then is 205-002 still missing?

After checking my Cisitalia and Abarth books, I think you are right. I have no idea what happened to 002.

[CherylB]

To try and answer everyone's questions in one post...We will not be going anywhere as Ted has rather severe Post Polio syndrome at this point and rarely even leaves the house. Please say hello to Scott Emsley if you see him though.

The car behing the Abarth is a replica of a Lotus 11 (Westfield). We have about 20 cars...almost all European sports cars. Ted is the original owner of the 300SL, by the way.

I didn't want to dispute the green car being a 205, but I thought the same thing. Ted said it could be that it was hit in the front at some point and changes were made then. The appearantly missing portholes is the one that most threw me. Some of the stories I have heard about 102 is that is was destroyed, or that it never leaft Europe and is still being quietly cherished there....all just theories though.

[dretceterini]

Originally posted by CherylB
To try and answer everyone's questions in one post...We will not be going anywhere as Ted has rather severe Post Polio syndrome at this point and rarely even leaves the house. Please say hello to Scott Emsley if you see him though.

The car behing the Abarth is a replica of a Lotus 11 (Westfield). We have about 20 cars...almost all European sports cars. Ted is the original owner of the 300SL, by the way.

I didn't want to dispute the green car being a 205, but I thought the same thing. Ted said it could be that it was hit in the front at some point and changes were made then. The appearantly missing portholes is the one that most threw me. Some of the stories I have heard about 102 is that is was destroyed, or that it never leaft Europe and is still being quietly cherished there....all just theories though.

Has anyone figured out if there was a similar looking 204 coupe ever built? Most books give at least the IMPRESSION that there was one...

I would love to see 205-103 get done for Amelia Island 2010. Should you ever have any interest in selling it, please let us know...

[CherylB]

I'm afraid I don't know much about the 204's. From what I have read here, I suspect you guys know a lot more than I do. I can promise you that Ted will not get 103 restored. What little time he does spend in the garage these days is spent working on a GT40 replica. I think that the idea of working on an historic car scares him a bit these days. He did a LOT of work on a 1920 Ballot (2nd place indy car) over a period of 5 years, but reached a point where it was too much for him. With the replicas he doesn't have to worry about doing it wrong.
Also, I can promise that he will never sell the Abarth. He has a few standing offers, but has no thoughts of selling any of the cars we have now.

[vintageautomobilia]

Originally posted by CherylB
I'm afraid I don't know much about the 204's. From what I have read here, I suspect you guys know a lot more than I do. I can promise you that Ted will not get 103 restored. What little time he does spend in the garage these days is spent working on a GT40 replica. I think that the idea of working on an historic car scares him a bit these days. He did a LOT of work on a 1920 Ballot (2nd place indy car) over a period of 5 years, but reached a point where it was too much for him. With the replicas he doesn't have to worry about doing it wrong.
Also, I can promise that he will never sell the Abarth. He has a few standing offers, but has no thoughts of selling any of the cars we have now.

Cheryl,

I'm really sorry to hear about Ted's health, but I am happy to know that Abarth 205A 003 has a good and loving home.

[etceterini.com]

I have posted new pictures of the Buckland 205a-103 as she sits today on my
Abarth page if anyone is interested:

http://www.ferrariex....com/abarth.htm

[raceannouncer2003]

On the Charlie Kolb thread, from Kevin Callanan:

"Good morning I came across this forum while doing a little research on my Dad, Skip Callanan, that is certainly him in that photo- I remember Mac Tilton well. I have never seen those two photos before, so I was thrilled. However I was wondering if there anymore photos like out there and is there any more info on Dad's stint with Roosevelt Racing, the Bandini the he and Paul Richards drove , etc. Sadly , Dad passed away 5 years ago, and never really chronicled his history, even though my sister and I tried to get him to do so. Any information would be great."

Skip Callanan had the following Abarth? Any more info for Kevin?

208 A N.005 Possibly the Spyder Biposto Stradale Boano/Michelotti in origin. Salone Torino 1955 Tony Pompeo - NY, USA (as dealer) Charles "Skip" Callanan / Interstate Distributing Co. - New Haven, CT, USA ad Pit Talk 2//57 p20 "Abarth Roadster. The only one of its type in existence. Special aluminum body by Boano." "Very similar to the competition model of the Abarth but interior completely finished in leather and with full road and
weather equipment." "Weighs only 1150 lbs. Engine is an Abarth modified Fiat 1100 developing 70BHP." "Skip Callanan"

Vince H.

[etceterini.com]

To my GREAT dismay I've just found out that both these cars have been sold!

[etceterini.com]

I just found this car which was at Goodwood this year:

[SHRAEL]

I just found this car which was at Goodwood this year:

This is 205-102. Considering the basis at the start of teh restoration, they did a remarkable job, as im sure significant body work had to get done.
I doubt this car has the original Cisitalia type 204 engine Gesslers and my car have.

Separately, loved the reference to the Abarth 208, in one of the above posts. A touch odd, as i thoughts the car went from the Dupont family hands to a fellow in Maryland, then to the person i purchased the car from. No mention of the CT owner. Any more color? fascinating! The car is still very original and will remain such.

rgds

Elad

Edited by SHRAEL, 26 October 2009 - 21:10.

[etceterini.com]

It's great to see #102 discovered and out and driving again! I think this post has come around
full circle! I'd love to find out what engine #102 has so perhaps there will be more to add!
Thanks for posting Elad and I can't wait to see your fantastic 208 in person at 2010 Amelia!

-cliff

[Wouter Melissen]

Can you tell from a picture of the engine which one it is? We shot the car at Goodwood and have engine shots. I think my father may have the card of the owner so we can ask.

[etceterini.com]

YES! Let's see those engine shots and more of the car. I searched your great web site
but could not find them.

-cliff

[Wouter Melissen]

Here are the engine shots:



Does anybody know the early history of this car, so I can add it to my 205 feature?

[Wouter Melissen]

Is it the same car that was auctioned by Christie's back in 2004?

[SHRAEL]

Is it the same car that was auctioned by Christie's back in 2004?

Yes. Post restoration.

Elad

[Wouter Melissen]

Yes. Post restoration.

Elad

So it is definitely a 205A and not a modified Cisitalia as mentioned earlier in the thread?

Edited by Wouter Melissen, 28 October 2009 - 11:20.

[dretceterini]

I'm wondering if anyone knows for certain if any 204 coupes were actually built? There are lots of stories, but there doesn't seem to be any proof.

[Wouter Melissen]

I'm wondering if anyone knows for certain if any 204 coupes were actually built? There are lots of stories, but there doesn't seem to be any proof.

The owner of 101 I talked to at Villa d'Este said there was no 204A Coupe. That it was 205101 used in 1950. In the Abarth book by Luciano Greggio there is a picture of the 1951 Turin Show and the car looks a lot like 205103, which would imply that by then two cars already existed.

[SHRAEL]

The owner of 101 I talked to at Villa d'Este said there was no 204A Coupe. That it was 205101 used in 1950. In the Abarth book by Luciano Greggio there is a picture of the 1951 Turin Show and the car looks a lot like 205103, which would imply that by then two cars already existed.

I generally agree, if the 204A is/was generally thought of as having tubular chassis, then i dont believe it existed. If the nomenclature is important, it could be the case that 101 was called at some point a 204A coupe, but i do think its more accurate to call it a 205A. Specifically, im sure the chassis plate on 101 would clear the confusion. I recall being told it is 205-101.
Now for further confusion. It was reported that some 205's (i recall only 3) had an enlarged engine to 1199cc. Now if 101 carries the original engine and it competed in the 1100 and under category, then it cannot have a 1200 engine - i suppose. Thus only 103 should have a 1200cc engine, if indeed that report is accurate.

rgds

Elad

Edited by SHRAEL, 28 October 2009 - 20:58.