24 replies to this topic

[Paul Taylor]

Does anyone have any knowledge of any support races that were held on the same day, or at the same weekend as the 1950 Italian GP (21° GP d'Italia) at Monza?

I am trying to identify some photographs I found of a car belonging to Mario Giorgetti (who died over 45 years ago), and an article written in an Italian motorsport magazine in 1962 suggests the photos were taken at the 21° GP d'Italia, however the car is a FIAT-Stanguellini 1100 and therefore did not/could not have ran in the Grand Prix of the same "title".

Whatever race it was, it occurred after August 1950, which would tie in with the Italian GP on September 3rd, however I have been unable to locate any results - or information of the existence of - any sportscar support races from that day/race weekend.

Does anyone have anything?

[David McKinney]

Races for 1100 cars had been popular in earlier postwar years, but the Gran Criterium 1100 at the 1950 Italian GP meeting was a one-off. The field was an interesting mixture of Cisitalias and Simcas such as had contested races in 1947 and thereabouts, rear-engined Cooper-JAPs and small Italian sportscars such as OSCAs and Stanguellinis. The list of drivers inlcuded Hans Stuck, Raymond Sommer, Harry Schell, André Simon, Ken Wharton, Felice Bonetto and Umberto Maglioli.

[fines]

I'd like to find out more about that one, too. The only thing I have is that Bonetto won, with Sommer presumably second.

[ERault]

I can add the following, mostly from the OSCA and the Stanguellini books :

1 - Bonetto - works OSCA MT4
2 - Sommer - works OSCA MT4
3 - Simon - works Gordini
4 - Sighinolfi - works Stanguellini Bialbero
5 - Delfino - private Stanguellini SI
11 - Cabianca - works Stanguellini Bialbero
14 - Crepaldi - private OSCA MT4
DNF - Giorgetti - private Fiat-Stanguellini

I would love to know if Stuck, Schell, Wharton and Maglioli indeed ran.

[alessandro silva]

Gran Criterium 1100
Monza 3-09-1950
30 laps 189 km
1100cc

Starters
2 Aldo Benedetti Benedetti-Ermini
4 E. Wartenweiler Stanguellini-Fiat
6 Giulio Cabianca Stanguellii-Fiat bialbero
10 André Simon SIMCA-Gordini T15 works
18 Emilio Romano Cisitalia-Abarth 204 works
22 Aquilino Branca Testa d'Oro Marinella Nardi/Zagato
24 Harry Schell Cooper T9-JAP
32 Enrico Adanti Sighinolfi-Ermini ch 1 Campana
36 Alberto Comirato Comirato-OSCA ch Gilco
42 Gastone Crepaldi OSCA 1101
46 Franco Bertani JAP Spl ch Topolino Ala d'Oro
48 Felice Bonetto OSCA 1111
50 Piero Carini OSCA Spl
52 Sergio Sighinolfi Stanguellini-Fiat CS01111 ? bialbero
60 Max de Terra Cisitalia D46
62 "Delfino" Stanguellini-Fiat bialbero
64 Angelo Bettinazzi Stanguellini-Fiat 280077 ? CS01106 ?
64 Umberto Maglioli Cisitalia D46
68 Tino Bianchi Cisitalia D46
70 Raymond Sommer OSCA 1109
74 Willy Daetwyler Cisitalia D46
76 Casalegno Cisitalia D46
78 Aldo Terigi Ermini
80 Manlio Duberti Cisitalia-Abarth 204 works
Emilio Carnevalli Fiat Carnevalli TT
Alfred Dattner SIMCA-Gordini T11 04GC
Ken Wharton Cooper T12-JAP
Mario Giorgetti Stanguellini-Fiat 282763 ?? CS01112 ??

Results 1. Felice Bonetto OSCA 1h15m8s 150.931 kph
2. Raymond Sommer OSCA 1h15m8s1
3. André Simon SIMCA-Gordini T15 1h15m35s
4. Sergio Sighinolfi Stanguellini-Fiat 1h15m35s1
5. "Delfino" Stanguellini-Fiat 1h15m42s1
6. Alberto Comirato Comirato-OSCA 1h15m46s 29 laps
7. Umberto Maglioli Cisitalia D46 1h15m50s2 29 laps
8. Emilio Romano Cisitalia-Abarth 204 1h15m09s1 28 laps
9. Aldo Terigi Ermini 1h15m48s 28 laps
10. Casalegno Cisitalia D46 1h15m52s2 28 laps
11. Giulio Cabianca 1h16m32s1 28 laps
12. Manlio Duberti Cisitalia-Abarth 204 1h17m30s2 28 laps
13. Enrico Adanti Fiat Sighinolfi 1h16m41s2 27 laps
14. Gastone Crepaldi OSCA 1h15m24s1 26 laps
15. Max de Terra Cisitalia D46 1h15m50s 26 laps

Fastest lap André Simon SIMCA-Gordini T15 2m26s4 154,916kph

DNF Aldo Benedetti Benedetti-Ermini 20 laps
E. Wartenweiler Stanguellini-Fiat 19 laps
Harry Schell Cooper T12-JAP 15 laps
Willy Daetwyler Cisitalia D46 15 laps
Tino Bianchi Cisitalia D46 15 laps
Aquilino Branca Testa d'Oro 7 laps
Piero Carini OSCA 6 laps
Franco Bertani JAP Spl 2 laps
Emilio Carnevalli Fiat Carnevalli TT 1 lap
Alfred Dattner SIMCA-Gordini T11 1 lap
Ken Wharton Cooper T12-JAP 1 lap
Mario Giorgetti Stanguellini-Fiat 1 lap crashed

[fines]

Don't you just love TNF?

[GIGLEUX]

From entry list:

n°8 Carnevalli
n°12 Wharton
n°44 Giorgetti announced with a Stanguellini
n°58 Dattner

Name of the race: Gran Criterium della 1100 - Coppa "Dante Spreafico". 30 laps 189 km.
27 starters 15 finishers.

[David McKinney]

Interesting that none of those lists mentions Stuck, who was reported in the English press as having been fastest in the first practice session before overturning his Cisitalia D46 and rendering himself a nonstarter. Bonetto and Sommer in OSCAs were fastest by the end of training, with Wharton and Schell next in their Cooper-JAPs.

[GIGLEUX]

On the entry list:

n°16 X X
n°34 X X

Maybe one of these numbers was allocated to Stuck and his Cisitalia-Abarth.
So there were 40 places but only the 30 best qualified were to start.
From Automobil Revue DNS Cacciari and Macchieraldo; and Sterzi gave his car to Giorgetti. The incident of Stuck was also mentioned.
I also have the starting grid, if somebody is interested I can provide it.

[alessandro silva]

Originally posted by David McKinney
Interesting that none of those lists mentions Stuck, who was reported in the English press as having been fastest in the first practice session before overturning his Cisitalia D46 and rendering himself a nonstarter. Bonetto and Sommer in OSCAs were fastest by the end of training, with Wharton and Schell next in their Cooper-JAPs.

David,
it is unbelievable that a Cisitalia D46, even with Abarth development, could possibly be faster than OSCAs, Cooper-JAPs and Gordini T15 at the end of of 1950 and on a track like Monza.
A difference of 20 bhp - conservatively speaking - meant over 30 per cent less power on the long Monza straights.

Jean-Maurice,
I'll be happy to have the grid.
I have the fastest times during the race for each starter.

[Paul Taylor]

Originally posted by fines
Don't you just love TNF?

Absolutely, that's EXACTLY what I'm looking for and the results fit in with the picture of Giorgetti's car perfectly. For the record, his car was #30. The article said Giorgetti crashed shortly after the start and was seriously injured; not returning to racing until a hillclimb at Terni-Marmone in 1952 after a long period of inactivity. The photographs had come from a completely different source and the only thing for certain was that they were of Mario Giorgetti's car after an accident.

Many, many thanks, alessandro silva you've just solved a 3 year old mystery

[ERault]

How wonderful !

Am I right thinking Branca's Testadoro was only of 750 cc ?

[GIGLEUX]

Originally posted by ERault
How wonderful !

Am I right thinking Branca's Testadoro was only of 750 cc ?

Yes, you are.

[RAP]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GIGLEUX
On the entry list:

n°16 X X
n°34 X X

Maybe one of these numbers was allocated to Stuck and his Cisitalia-Abarth.
So there were 40 places but only the 30 best qualified were to start.
From Automobil Revue DNS Cacciari and Macchieraldo; and Sterzi gave his car to Giorgetti. The incident of Stuck was also mentioned.
I also have the starting grid, if somebody is interested I can provide it. [/QUOT

See your PMs please, Gigleux

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by alessandro silva

David,
it is unbelievable that a Cisitalia D46, even with Abarth development, could possibly be faster than OSCAs, Cooper-JAPs and Gordini T15 at the end of of 1950 and on a track like Monza.

Don't shoot the messenger
The report did say he was fastest after the first session - maybe the faster guys didn't go out till later?

[alessandro silva]

Paul,
there is an uncertainty as to which car Giorgetti drove in the race.
I have down two chassis numbers: 282763 and CS01112.
Giorgetti was listed as #44 but you say he raced with #30 (probably Sterzi's number). His usual car was 282763. What is the Italian magazine where you took the photos from?

[GIGLEUX]

The Revue Automobile wrote: "Sterzi gave his car to his team-mate Giorgetti who was placed on the grid with his own (Giorgetti) practice time.".

[GIGLEUX]

N°30, on the entry list, was allocated to Sterzi and n°44 to Giorgetti.

[Paul Taylor]

These are presumably the photos of Giorgetti's car after the accident:
http://web.tiscali.i...i/incidente.htm

And on this page is a scan of the article (1962 n° 4 pag. 29-30, the text can be found on the second page):
http://web.tiscali.i...di_giornale.htm

While they are from the same website, they are from two completely different sources orginally.

Al 21° GP d'Italia a Monza quasi subito dopo il via esce di strada al curvone rimanendo seriamente ferito. Lo incontriamo nuovamente alla gara in salita nel 1952 - dopo un lungo periodo di inattività - Terni-Marmore. Si classifica 4°.

This roughly translates to:

At the 21st GP d'Italia at Monza, he left the road at a curve almost immediately after the start and was seriously injured. He returned to racing at a hillclimb in 1952 - after a long period of inactivity - Terni-Marmone [hillclimb]. He finished 4th.

[alessandro silva]

Interesting photos. So at Monza he had already switched to CS01112, which I knew he purchased well into 1951. This was a 1950 works car, supposedly for Sterzi in that race.

[raceannouncer2003]

Originally posted by Paul Taylor
These are presumably the photos of Giorgetti's car after the accident:
http://web.tiscali.i...i/incidente.htm

And on this page is a scan of the article (1962 n° 4 pag. 29-30, the text can be found on the second page):
http://web.tiscali.i...di_giornale.htm

While they are from the same website, they are from two completely different sources orginally.



This roughly translates to:

At the 21st GP d'Italia at Monza, he left the road at a curve almost immediately after the start and was seriously injured. He returned to racing at a hillclimb in 1952 - after a long period of inactivity - Terni-Marmone [hillclimb]. He finished 4th.

Was the 21st GP d'Italia in 1950 or 1951?

Vince H.

[GIGLEUX]

As writen in post 1, the 21st GP of Italy was held in 1950.

[alessandro silva]

If one looks at the numbering of the Italian Grands Prix, he will understand that the 17th never took place.

[GIGLEUX]

Originally posted by alessandro silva
If one looks at the numbering of the Italian Grands Prix, he will understand that the 17th never took place.

Is it because 17 in Italy is an unhappy number like 13 in other countries?

[Hugo Boecker]

Originally posted by GIGLEUX


Is it because 17 in Italy is an unhappy number like 13 in other countries?

The 17th edition of the Gran Premio d'Italie was planned for September 11th 1939 but for political reasons we all know it never took place. Again it was placed on the calender for September 8th 1940 and cancelled again.
So the first post war GP in 1947 was No.18