39 replies to this topic

[David Shaw]

The recent request for photographs from this race has piqued my curiousity, and I have now found that reliable information is hard to come by.
Bill Tuckey's Australia's Greatest Motor Race (don't blame me Stan, that's the title) which I thought would be well researched, especially as he participated in said event, has such errors such as stating of Digby Cooke’s Monaro “Digby Cooke, amazingly, was quicker than all the works Holdens at 2:51.1, but that was good enough only to get him the fourth spot on the grid, with three Falcons ahead of him.”
Photos of shortly after the start seem to agree with this, but when I saw some footage of the start with Cooke in the middle of the front row, ie second on the grid, I began to wonder how much was truth. He also states “When the flag dropped, Mike Savva’s GTHO from the third row pulled left………….” when viewing footage makes it obvious that he came from further back, most probably the 5th row. The one website that has practice times has them obviously wrong as well as they do not all fit correctly with the grid.
I was wondering if somebody would please be so kind as to post scans of the race report, such as from RCN, as my copies have now moved on to a new home. There was so much that happened in that first lap, and it has been scarcely covered so far.

[Dingo]

Maybe the author picked up on the footage at a later date. The 1999 update of Australia's Greatest Motor Race has both Cooke starting 2nd (with photo confirmation) and Savva starting from the 5th row.

[David Shaw]

Thanks for that, nice to know it was corrected. Would the updated edition of the book happen to have practice times or full grid positions? Most photos were taken from shortly after the start when Cooke was already behind Geoghegan, and back about level with the tenth row is Goss' HO with the chequered sunstrip on the windscreen. I have seen footage where Goss missed the start by around a second, and I believe he started about 9th.

[Dingo]

There is a photo taken on the grid of the front row just before the start, plus the book does have practice times and the starting grid at the back of the book with the race results (page 457). I don't have a scanner so I can't help with this though.

[David Shaw]

Thanks for that info, I will try and get a hold of that book if I can't get a scanned copy of the grid and times.

[Catalina Park]

I used to be mates with Digby's son and he told me that his dad got pole but was pipped in the last minutes of practice by Geoghegan.
Actually the 1990 second edition of Tuckeys book that I have says this about qualifying ...

Pete Geoghegan laid down the law at 2.48.9. Digby Cooke, amazingly was quicker than all the works Holdens at 2.50.0, good enough for second spot on the grid.

But it has no photo of the grid.

[Catalina Park]

Grid...

1) Geoghegan/Geoghegan, 2) Cooke/Bowden,	3) McPhee/Mulholland

   Falcon, 2.48.9.		 Monaro, 2.50.0.	 Falcon. 2.50.1. 

			 4) Moffat/Hamilton,   5) Gibson/Seton

				Falcon.			   Falcon.

6)McKay/Foley,		7) Bond/Roberts,	   8) Macrow/Wolders,

  Falcon.				Monaro.				Monaro.

			 9) Goss/Cribben,	   10) West/Brock,

				Falcon.				 Monaro.

11) Savva/Wilkinson, 12) Arentz/Michelmore, 13) Tuckey/Petralia,

	Falcon.			  Falcon.				Monaro.	   

			 14) Sheldon/Holland,   15) Petrilli/Stahl,

				 Monaro. (DNS)		  Monaro.

[David Shaw]

Thanks for that bit of info. In the first edition of Tuckey's book where he credits Digby with 4th, he quotes a time of 2:53.3, with McPhee (who started 3rd) on 2:50.1. 4th and 5th were Moffat and Gibson, the 3rd row should be McKay, Bond and Macrow and then it gets a bit vague, but I think possibly Goss and Des West on the 4th row.

[David Shaw]

Ahh, thank you for that, you posted while I was composing.

[David Shaw]

I believe the "Sheldon" Monaro in 14th was none other than our fellow poster seldo, and the Arentz/Michelmore HO in 12th I actually had as Bill Brown's car. His car was relatively close to the sister Alto Ford car of McKay's, and I believe the Arentz car was also Candy Apple Red, so that may be the confusion. There is a youtube clip of the start, first time around Hell, and the Brown incident:
http://au.youtube.co...h?v=1JJq9t66JVA

EDIT: The DNS of seldo would explain what seemed to be a bit of a gap in the pack as it flocked down toward Hell.

[Dale Harvey]

No David, the Sheldon Monaro was in fact David Sheldon from Newcastle. Nearly the same name but in fact two different people. David Seldon and David Sheldon.
Dale Harvey.

[David Shaw]

Thanks Dale, I had somebody sort that one out with me on the weekend. I had thought that they were one and the same, but obviously not. David Seldon has appeared at Bathurst numerous times, while Sheldon's only appearance was in his GTS350 in 1970, when Seldon drove an XU1.

I have confirmed my thoughts on the Arentz GTHO as well, it started from near last of the 14 GTHOs, it was Brown's car in 12th.

Goss certainly had an interesting half lap, started 9th but completely missed the start to be 16th out of Hell, and had the Bill Brown car roll behind him at Skyline by which time he had made his way up to 8th.

[David Shaw]

Actually I was wrong about the Arentz car. After reviewing footage again, it obviously got held up behind Goss, as did Griffiths who was behind Arentz. Arentz was about the last Falcon away. It is very fortunate on the packed 3-2-3 grid that there wasn't a catastrophe on the grid as well as the top of the mountain.
I have expanded a little on Catalina Park's grid:

Originally posted by Catalina Park
Grid...

1) Geoghegan/Geoghegan, 2) Cooke/Bowden,	3) McPhee/Mulholland

   Falcon, 2.48.9.		 Monaro, 2.50.0.	 Falcon. 2.50.1. 

			 4) Moffat/Hamilton,   5) Gibson/Seton

				Falcon.			   Falcon.

6)McKay/Foley,		7) Bond/Roberts,	   8) Macrow/Wolders,

  Falcon.				Monaro.				Monaro.

			 9) Goss/Cribben,	   10) West/Brock,

				Falcon.				 Monaro.

11) Savva/Wilkinson, 12) Arentz/Michelmore, 13) Tuckey/Petralia,

	Falcon.			  Falcon.				Monaro.	   

			 14) Sheldon/Holland,   15) Petrilli/Stahl,

				 Monaro. (DNS)		  Monaro.

16) Brown/West,	  17) Griffiths/Scott,	18) Beasley/Muir,

	Falcon.			  Falcon.				Falcon.

			 19) Chenery/Johnson,  20) Smith/Ford,

				 Falcon.				 Class E, GT Auto.

21) French/Chivas,   22) Bartlett/Goodwin,	23) Gapps/Hann,

	Class E, Alfa.	  Class E, Alfa.		Falcon.

			 24) Genders/Butta

				 Falcon.

[johnny yuma]

Would it be right to say the first ten cars on the grid were the ten who were ahead of Brown when he created the first lap pile up before skyline? Brown must have moved up to 11th from 16th on the grid in half a lap if that is the case.On lap 2 on the highlights DVD it indicates the order as Geoghegan,Moffat,McKay (fords)Cooke,Bond,West(Brock did second stint) (holdens).

[David Shaw]

When Brown went up the bank (I won't say he caused the pile-up), there were only 7 ahead of him, the 6 you listed plus Goss, with Savva beside him. The general consensus is that Savva moved over on Brown and squeezed him up the bank. I have analysed what happened on that first half lap from photos and 2 separate lots of footage and I will be posting a detailed article on it hopefully within a week or so, which show that an incident that occurred on the grid had a large bearing to what happened up at Skyline.

Yes, Brown did have a good start, and Sheldon who qualified 14th DNSd, but Brown was tenth coming out of Hell. What is surprising is not that Brown moved up so quickly, but that he qualified so badly with the sister
car of McKay starting 6th. I have read a small snippet from Brown that mentions he had car problems in practice that they eradicated on a dyno at Orange on the Saturday night.

[seldo]

Originally posted by Dale Harvey
No David, the Sheldon Monaro was in fact David Sheldon from Newcastle. Nearly the same name but in fact two different people. David Seldon and David Sheldon.
Dale Harvey.

I don't know how I missed this thread, but that is correct. From memory, I didn't have a start that year.

[David Shaw]

Yes David, according to Tuckey you missed '69, but you drove an XU1 in '70 when Sheldon in his GTS350 had his only start.

[David Shaw]

Actually I was wrong Johnny on re-reading your list.

The order of cars that missed the Skyline incident were:

Geoghegan
McPhee
McKay
Gibson
Cooke
Bond
Des West
Goss

Savva was next, but part of the incident. Moffat wasn't there as he had pulled off to the left just after The Cutting, unable to select gears. He eventually got going and missed the chaos.

[GO NOT SHOW]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought the big accident occurred approaching the Dipper, way past Skyline ?.

[David Shaw]

It was definitely at Skyline.

[GO NOT SHOW]

And after looking at the YouTube video my greying memory has now been corrected !.

[cavvy]

Originally posted by Catalina Park
Grid...

1) Geoghegan/Geoghegan, 2) Cooke/Bowden,	3) McPhee/Mulholland

   Falcon, 2.48.9.		 Monaro, 2.50.0.	 Falcon. 2.50.1. 

			 4) Moffat/Hamilton,   5) Gibson/Seton

				Falcon.			   Falcon.

6)McKay/Foley,		7) Bond/Roberts,	   8) Macrow/Wolders,

  Falcon.				Monaro.				Monaro.

			 9) Goss/Cribben,	   10) West/Brock,

				Falcon.				 Monaro.

11) Savva/Wilkinson, 12) Arentz/Michelmore, 13) Tuckey/Petralia,

	Falcon.			  Falcon.				Monaro.	   

			 14) Sheldon/Holland,   15) Petrilli/Stahl,

				 Monaro. (DNS)		  Monaro.

Digby Cookes co driver, is that David Bowden of car ownership fame?

[David Shaw]

I had been wondering the same thing cavvy, so I have now shot off an email to see if I can get an answer on that. That was apparently Bowden's only drive at the mountain. I wonder if he has Cooke's car?

[johnny yuma]

Originally posted by David Shaw
Actually I was wrong Johnny on re-reading your list.

The order of cars that missed the Skyline incident were:

Geoghegan
McPhee
McKay
Gibson
Cooke
Bond
Des West
Goss

Savva was next, but part of the incident. Moffat wasn't there as he had pulled off to the left just after The Cutting, unable to select gears. He eventually got going and missed the chaos.

Thanks David -when viewing the DVD highlights 1969 no mention is made of where Moffat disappeared to in the first lap in fact they have him incorrectly second on lap 2,then he returns later, again without explaination, like a ghost ship.How long did Moffat linger in the cutting? I was there but,well,I have had 40 consecutive memory erasing weekends at the 500/1000 camped on Reid Park and as they say if you can remember the 60s you probably WEREN'T there !!

[David Shaw]

I recall reading that when Moffat arrived at Skyline that the traffic jam was cleared, so on that basis he would have dropped nearly a lap.
I hope to have some info on my website within the next couple of days, but I have had problems with a virus disabling my home network (only 2 pcs) and unfortunately my laptop with all my website info on it cannot connect.
My homepage wouldn't even come up this morning so it is taking a lot longer than I anticipated.

[AUS-ESP]

Ausmodders proudly presents the XW GTHO 1969 Field of the Bathurst 500.



1969 HT GTS to follow shortly

Still to fix a few minor tweaks

[David Shaw]

Excellent work there.

[Catalina Park]

Originally posted by AUS-ESP
Ausmodders proudly presents the XW GTHO 1969 Field of the Bathurst 500.

Still to fix a few minor tweaks

If they want them to look right they will have to take the hubcaps off. (the tyres are not right either!)

[AUS-ESP]

Yes we are well aware that these cars mostly ran stock 12 slots..Some silver some black and most ran on goodyear tyres although not all of them are stamped with the good year white lettering.

The picture was more to show David how the paints have worked since he has given alot of info in regards to them.

Thanks again David for your help

[David Shaw]

I'm just glad that you were able to track down enough material to work from.

Now that I have my computers working properly, I should be able to do the update to my website by the end of this week which will have a new section BITS & PIECES for racing items unrelated to the Gold Star, which will have a section on the 1969 Hardie-Ferodo.

[David Shaw]

I don't have my head in the right space at the moment to be playing around with HTML to try and get this up on my website, so I thought rather wait until I did I would post the article that I have compiled here as a series of images. A big thank you to Scott Mackay for the information he provided.











EDIT: Some results were missing.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by Catalina Park
If they want them to look right they will have to take the hubcaps off. (the tyres are not right either!)

and torqued up to 25 Ft/Lbs so that they didn't crack in the hub

I think Catalina is being a little picky...I'd love to see a diorama of the models gridded up...that would be something (although you would need to get hold of models of the other classes as well)

[Catalina Park]

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4
I think Catalina is being a little picky...

Picky? To these blokes it is of vital importance to have the right colour and all the sponsors logos in the right places, everything has to look perfect. I can understand wanting everything to be right but to have all the race cars with hubcaps is just being stupid and silly. Can anyone show me a photo of a Falcon racing at Bathurst with hubcaps?

[john medley]

Why not go to the horses' mouths re some of this? I agree that all of us may well have vagrant memories of events of the 1960s, but many of the participants mentioned in this thread are still around. Some are obvious,some less so: Digby Cooke, for example, turns up each year at Speed on Tweed with his remarkable Jaguar replica, and lives not far away on, I think, the Gold Coast

[Ray Bell]

Is that really needed, John?

Obviously none of them had hubcaps on. They weren't allowed, not since some time in the fifties. Unless they were bolted on, as on Peugeot and Renault... and who'd want to have to unbolt a hubcap during a wheel change anyway?

The cars had to be production models, so whichever wheels one ran the others would have to run. In the case of the Falcons, that might have differed with the automatic, but probably not.

As for tyres, McPhee's car was on Michelins. I don't think many ran racing tyres at that stage... if any. Most were probably on Michelins for durability.

[David Shaw]

Al Turner had his secret weapon for the works Fords, the Goodyear Blue Streak racing tyres that shredded up very quickly. I think one or two other Falcons may have worn them too.

[Ray Bell]

Strange... I thought that was the year...

But I also thought that the big Bill Brown crash, caused by a blowout, was the same year, and I knew that was later. I don't think David McKay's cars had racing tyres on, but you never know, as you've recorded already, Bill had a pretty quick run up the mountain.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by Catalina Park
Picky? To these blokes it is of vital importance to have the right colour and all the sponsors logos in the right places, everything has to look perfect. I can understand wanting everything to be right but to have all the race cars with hubcaps is just being stupid and silly. Can anyone show me a photo of a Falcon racing at Bathurst with hubcaps?

Yeah...picky like I said Maybe we can put em right tho Mike

[AUS-ESP]

Small update -Long time between posts

Here are the cars in game racing at Eastern Creek.

[David Shaw]

Well done to your whole team, the mod is looking great.