43 replies to this topic

[Doug Nye]

Now here's a thought. Years ago I wrote for the first time that "Before World War 2 there were barely three-dozen 'proper' racing cars - open-wheeled single-seaters - in Britain".

It's amazing what one writes off the top of one's head when on a short deadline. Re-reading this stuff now...errr...was I right? I've never taken the time to count.

DCN

[Allan Lupton]

Do you mean British racing cars (as per title) or racing cars in Britain (as per text)?

Second question, when you write "before World War 2" do you mean "in 1939" or "up till 1939" - if you see what I mean?

[Sharman]

Doug
Did you take into account all the Outer Circuit Cars?
John

[Vitesse2]

I'm assuming you mean competitive purpose-built cars rather than conversions of things like K3s, Brooklands Rileys and the like, Doug. I've also excluded the Outer Circuit dinosaurs and the various Bugattis and Alfa Tipo Bs, which were obsolete by 1935.

If we settle on a ballpark figure of 10 ERAs, given that one had been written off and at any one time two or three were out of the country, there was Bira's ex-Straight Maser, the Delage, the Lightweight Special, about 10 assorted P-type and R-type MGs, three or four Austins, Abecassis' Alta, the Multi-Union, five or so 1500cc Maseratis of various vintages, the Bimotore Alfa, Maclure's Riley and .... errr ....ummm .....

I make that about three dozen ;)

Edit: plus the Appleton Special?

[Ray Bell]

How many did you need with such a small amount of racing going on?

[Doug Nye]

I would consider such 'production based' single-seat Brooklands specials as the Birkin Blower Bentley, the Pacey-Hassan and Barnato-Hassan as worthy of inclusion, but then it's really a question of the ERAs, the Austin Seven single-seaters, the MG R-Types, the Appleton and Brooke Specials, then the various imports, Maseratis and Alfas...and yes, Allan I did mean pre-1939 - right back to Ug's invention of the square wheel for the Sunday trip down the newsagents from his cave...

The point I was trying to make to a modern non-motor sporting audience was that whereas today open-wheeler Formula cars are ten a penny, a common sight, and there are fahzands of the buggers plus probably as many people who have driven such things at one time or another - in the UK of 1946-47 "a racing car" was ineed a rare and really exotic beast.

But I have never sat down and really counted them up...

DCN

[fines]

If you did, I'm sure you'd find your number generously exceeded very quickly! Apart from the Outer Circuit Specials (surely "'proper' racing cars - open-wheeled single-seaters"!?) which must reach that number of three-dozen alone, I can add from the top of my head the Eldridge Miller 122, the Derby-Miller, two more Grand Prix Delage (Campbell had two, and Howe bought a third as a replacement - and wasn't the Ramponi/Chula rebuild de facto another?), the Grand Prix Talbot of the same vintage (though perhaps too French to be counted here ;))... And, of course, there was a time not so long before 1939 when a 'proper' racing car still had two seats, so you can add all those Brescia and other Bugattis, the Zborowski Miller and Mercedes, the Sunbeams etc. etc. etc.

[Hieronymus]

My knowledge of British racing is basically nil, but John Bolster's book SPECIALS always fascinates me...some very nice cars, even pre-WW2.

[Doug Nye]

No Michael - where I grew up a proper racing car was considered to have a single seat on the centreline, slender slipper body and open wheels. The offset-seat cars just did not count, though I'm pretty sure I've got the number wrong in any case. Vitesse's definition above (Post 4) is pretty much what I intended.

DCN

[fines]

Me too, Doug, where I grew up it was much the same - perhaps it has more to do with when one grows up! Alas, I have learned to accept a P2 Alfa Romeo, a Miller 183 or a 1914 GP Mercedes as "proper racing cars", but cannot make myself think the same about a Porsche 917, Ferrari P2 or whatever.

[Vitesse2]

I'll grant you all those, Michael - although we could argue about the Delage(s) - and you can add others like Widengren's Amilcar, 'Red Mongrel', Humphries' ex-Widengren OM and so on. But at any one time in the 30s I doubt there were more than three dozen.

And of course I forgot 'Bloody Mary'.

[Ray Bell]

Yeah... I guess the Bartlett Special left there a bit too early...

Nobody's counted the Sulman Singer, have they?

[dbw]

golly, where i grew up the definition was the same as doug's...except every town with a fairground had a huge number of center-seaters with narrow bodies and race-bred twin-cam engines. i suspect that the average pre-war midget [even with an offy wouldn't pass the english muster but surely a well prepared indy car of the period should qualify...[for goodness sakes if a center seat austin is even mentioned]....

[fines]

Well, I guess in your country the number of 'proper' racing cars pre WW2 effortlessly exceeded much of the rest-of-the-world production well into the seventies, but apart from that (and possibly Germany), Britain must rank second only to Italy!

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
How many did you need with such a small amount of racing going on?

Depends on how you define a "small amount". By 1937-38 Britain had three active permanent circuits (that's as many as the whole of the rest of Europe at the time), all of them running several meetings per year ....

Not dirt-tracks either ;)

And what's wrong with twin-cam Austins? Pound for pound they produced more BHP than contemporary GP cars ...

[Ray Bell]

That's more than I thought, Speedy...

But the reference to 'the rest of Europe' is hardly correct or relevant, is it? First, in other countries racing was in most cases permitted on public roads. And then there was more than three... or at least three... Monthlery, Nurburgring, Monza that I can think of.

All the same, with three circuits and multiple meetings at each, you'd expect more than 36 cars of this type to be running.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Monthlery, Nurburgring, Monza that I can think of

I think you'll find those circuits were not - indeed, still are not - in the same country as each other

[Ray Bell]

I accept this readily, David...

However, Speedy referred to the 'whole of the rest of Europe', I'm sure I don't know all the permanent circuits that existed in Europe at the time, so I would think there'd be more than just the three.

[Vitesse2]

You nailed all three, Ray. Miramas and Sitges were already dead and buried of course.

There were plenty more single-seaters competing, but they weren't "pure" racers by my definition above: converted K3 Magnettes, M-type and C-type Midgets, assorted Rileys, even the odd Singer and Bugatti, Fane's Frazer Nash ....

What Crystal Palace, Donington Park and to a lesser extent Brooklands did in the late 30s laid the foundations and pattern for post-war British racing, when a whole new generation of drivers and cars arrived on the scene and the familiar club racing format evolved.

In retrospect, the creators of Donington and the Palace were visionaries.

[Sharman]

If a certain gentleman with a little moustache had managed to fulfil his dreams they might have been David

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
You nailed all three, Ray. Miramas and Sitges were already dead and buried of course.....
.....In retrospect, the creators of Donington and the Palace were visionaries.

Yes, you'd have to say that. Just as the people here who built Mt Druitt, Altona and Phillip Island were...

I hadn't included Miramas because I knew it had long since passed, and I forgot Sitges but had a nagging feeling there was another of that ilk somewhere. What surprises me is that there wasn't a pre-war Roskilde ring or something somewhere.

Wasn't Crystal Palace some sort of a park drive anyway? Was it built especially for racing? Anyway, my point about ignoring the multitude of public road courses in Europe still stands.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Ray Bell

Wasn't Crystal Palace some sort of a park drive anyway? Was it built especially for racing?

The post-war Palace was pretty much only the old park perimeter road, but the pre-war infield section was built specifically for racing as an adjunct to that. There were permanent stands too.

Originally posted by Ray Bell
Anyway, my point about ignoring the multitude of public road courses in Europe still stands.

I wasn't ignoring them, Ray. But by their very nature - unlike the permanent circuits - almost without exception they were only used once a year. Even the Continental hillclimbs - again on public roads - usually only held only one event annually: Shelsley Walsh and Prescott both had more than one meeting a year pre-war.

[dbw]

not to sound ignorant but did europe experience the high speed board track era or was that an american pursuit?
as i recall there were a good number of these in the teens all across the country..

and bye the bye...since when is a GP bugatti lumped in with production based race cars??? a t35 was a pure race car that can, with much modification ,be driven on the street...the bug was a purpose built car that had little to do with production cars and was still pretty competitive even in the thirties. anyone that can walk by a full T35b and not consider it a "proper racing car" needs, in my opinion, a few minutes behind the wheel.

[Allan Lupton]

Originally posted by dbw
anyone that can walk by a full T35b and not consider it a "proper racing car" needs, in my opinion, a few minutes behind the wheel.

Of course, but it's just that Doug, whose thread this is, defined what he was interested in as open-wheeled single-seaters. That then excludes all the Grand Prix cars from the earlier period when either a riding mechanic was carried, or space provision for one had to be made.

[Peter Morley]

Originally posted by Allan Lupton

Of course, but it's just that Doug, whose thread this is, defined what he was interested in as open-wheeled single-seaters. That then excludes all the Grand Prix cars from the earlier period when either a riding mechanic was carried, or space provision for one had to be made.

Presumably a Type 59 Bugatti would count and weren't there a couple of them in the UK to add to this list?

[dbw]

doug writes about proper single seat racing cars.."pre-39" and then continues to say he would consider every thing back to the dawn of man...in the real early days a riding mechanic was a necessity thru the teens. i would contend the concept of a center line single seat open wheel purpose built "pur sang" racing car appeared in the 20's [i'm thinking miller here] but mercurial rules dictated a second seat for particular seasons and events.

so ..as i recall, gwenda stewart drove a miller front drive on the isle as well as eldridge ran a miller 91...extremely proper racing cars- no?

[Odseybod]

Don't think I've seen the Issigonis Lightweight Special mentioned yet - or is it disqualified for being primarily a sprint and hillclimb car?

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Odseybod
Don't think I've seen the Issigonis Lightweight Special mentioned yet - or is it disqualified for being primarily a sprint and hillclimb car?

Originally posted by Vitesse2

.... the Lightweight Special ....

[Odseybod]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Vitesse2

.... the Lightweight Special ....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So Lightweight, it snuck in under my radar. Sorry!

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by dbw
not to sound ignorant but did europe experience the high speed board track era or was that an american pursuit?
as i recall there were a good number of these in the teens all across the country..

No, board tracks never crossed the Atlantic, perhaps because racing in Europe was far less proletarian than in America?

Originally posted by dbw
and bye the bye...since when is a GP bugatti lumped in with production based race cars??? a t35 was a pure race car that can, with much modification ,be driven on the street...the bug was a purpose built car that had little to do with production cars and was still pretty competitive even in the thirties. anyone that can walk by a full T35b and not consider it a "proper racing car" needs, in my opinion, a few minutes behind the wheel.

There were of course T35s of various ages in Britain. T37s and T39s too. And in the early 30s they were competitive. My original list was based roughly around 1937-38, but I'd stand by my comment that there were probably not more than three dozen racing cars of any description (mono- or biposto) here at any one time.

Oh and there were purpose-built single-seaters at Brooklands before 1914 ;)

[D-Type]

Originally posted by Vitesse2

Depends on how you define a "small amount". By 1937-38 Britain had three active permanent circuits (that's as many as the whole of the rest of Europe at the time), all of them running several meetings per year ....

Not dirt-tracks either ;)

What about Germany - wasn't Solitude in existence prewar? So they had the 'ring, Avus and Solitude. I accept Avus is questionable, but wasn't it a race circuit before being incorporated into the autobahn system?

Going back to Doug's original point: three dozen 'front line' single seaters wouldn't be too far adrift. I think specialist hillclimb cars, sand racers and Brooklands Outer Circuit cars shouldn't count. But as the Campbell and Mountain Circuits were meant to be 'road' circuits, or as close to them as Brooklands could get this doesn't exclude all brooklands cars.

I think it would be valid to ask how many single seaters there were in France, Germany and Italy. I know that the numbers for sports and racing Alfa Romeos are very low.

[Vitesse2]

Solitude was a temporary circuit on public roads, as was Bremgarten in Berne. The original Hockenheimring was in existence too, but pre-war the only races it hosted were for motorcycles - although Mercedes Benz did use it to test the W165s as it was a fast track, similar to Mellaha (although not as hot!)

I'd define the AVUS as a public road circuit too, but it's a bit of an academic question as it wasn't used after the 1937 races.

Single-seaters:

Germany: in any given year, about 10 assorted Mercedes and Auto Unions, plus 3 or 4 Maserati voiturettes, Burggaller's monoposto T37A and the 3 Zollers.

France: by the end of the 30s, virtually none, thanks to French racing politics. A Maserati voiturette or two, a couple of old Amilcars, the Bugatti T59/50, the Talbot MD and MC, the Delahaye 155 ....

Italy: lots of Maseratis (15, 20, 25?), half a dozen Alfettas and about the same number of Alfa GP cars

[Doug Nye]

Look, when I was about six I used to saw-up lengths of rough-cut balsa wood to make little cuboids (straw bales), then mark out a track with them, and then race my Dinky die-cast 'racing cars' around it.

Those were centreline single-seat open-wheelers, and I and all my schoolmates - and my big brother too - regarded them and them alone as constituting proper 'racing cars'.

Anything with an offset seat, a wide body, and maybe even a passenger seat, simply didn't twang the same chord.

Later, I think I formed a rather better idea of what Grand Prix cars, Formula 1 cars, sports-racing cars etc really were, and how to categorise them all. But over here the public perception seemed to remain that to be 'a racing car' the vehicle had to have - here we go again - a single centreline seat, slipper body and open wheels. The only acceptable exception to these criteria would be something like the streamlined Vanwall or the original Connaught B-Type streamliner, wide body but still one 'ole on the centreline where the man fits in...and therefore recognisably 'a racing car'.

DCN

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Look, when I was about six I used to saw-up lengths of rough-cut balsa wood

DCN

O/T: Elf'n'Safety would throw forty fits if you let a six-year-old anywhere near a saw these days!

[dbw]

DCN..all well and good; but shouldn't you be talking to your therapist about your misspent youth??

[fines]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Look, when I was about six I used to saw-up lengths of rough-cut balsa wood to make little cuboids (straw bales), then mark out a track with them, and then race my Dinky die-cast 'racing cars' around it.

I probably still did that when I was six-teen! ...

[Allan Lupton]

Originally posted by Vitesse2

I'd define the AVUS as a public road circuit too, but it's a bit of an academic question as it wasn't used after the 1937 races.

The Auto Verkehr und Übung Strasse was built as the name implies for traffic and testing, so yes it was a public road and yes it was a purpose-built circuit.

[Ray Bell]

And we used to call our Dinky Toy Masers 'Maserattles', Doug...

I certainly hope you included the Rheims W196 streamliners and Jack's Cooper in your reckoning.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
The original Hockenheimring was in existence too, but pre-war the only races it hosted were for motorcycles - although Mercedes Benz did use it to test the W165s as it was a fast track, similar to Mellaha (although not as hot!)

Car races were held there in 1938

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by David McKinney
Car races were held there in 1938

Thank you, David...

I held back from mentioning Hockenheim in my original post because I just didn't know. But that resolves it... more circuits 'in the whole of the rest of Europe' than in England.

Bad luck, Speedy!

[Vitesse2]

Minor .....

Car races were held there in 1938

Okay, I'll grant you four circuits in 1938 but Monza closed for rebuilding after the 1938 Italian GP, so wasn't active in 1939. Which takes us back to three ....

[David McKinney]

Getting back On (British) Track, by my count there were ten genuine factory-built open-wheel single-seater Grand Prix cars in Britian in 1939 - six Alfa Romeo Tipo B Monoposti, the 8C-35 and three 8CM Maseratis. There were three more ‘specials’ converted from or based on GP cars - the Multi-Union, the BHW and the Alfa-Aitken, plus an additional three older two-seater GP cars rebuilt as single-seaters - one Bugatti 35B, one Bugatti T51 and an eight-cylinder 1926 Talbot.
That makes a total of 16 GP or ex-GP single-seaters.
On top of that were 30 factory-built voiturettes - 16 ERAs (three A-Types, 10 B-Types and one each C, D and E), six Maseratis (two each 4CM, 6CM and 4CL), four central-seat Altas and four Frazer Nashes. Yes, I know some of those had 2-litre engines, but they had all been designed as 1500 voiturettes. And, sticking strictly to DCN’s exclusion of offset single-seaters, the Altas of that ilk are not included.
One-off single-seater voiturettes included the Brooke Special, the Challenge and the Appleton Special, which gives us another three for the total.
That gets us up to 49 single-seat open-wheelers in Britain in 1939, without taking into account Outer Circuit specials, ex-Indianapolis cars, sprint specials and smaller MGs and Austin 7s, which would surely bring the total pretty close to 100.
And of course adding two-seat GP cars such as Monza Alfas and Bugattis, and the British cars from the ’20s, would take it much higher.

[fines]

Thanks, David!

That's much closer to what I would have thought. Add to that that the original question was not about "in 1939", but "up to 1939" and the numbers are higher still!

[David McKinney]

Yes, several cars left the Isles in 1938 and 1939