130 replies to this topic

[Showty]

Here we go again.

http://www.express.d...d=1195300979669

Also Aldo Costa is quoted saying "they had the chance to understand our technical knowledge and how to get the best out of it, so we really know how that knowledge has been used in the new McLaren"

[Sébastien]

www.express.de says it all pretty much

[Yellowmc]

Can we as a collective not create such threads every time someone from Ferrari, McLaren or Renault open their mouths, why not just ask the mods to create one large Spygate thread?

[undersquare]

This is the google translation...

"Red against silver - it is again! The espionage war between Ferrari and McLaren-Mercedes, with the 72-million penalty and disqualification of all championship points for the silver arrows, and the public apology by McLaren boss Ron Dennis ended.

But Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo subordinate to the British-German team Ideenklau continued: "The new car is a silver Ferrari."

With old allegations in the new season! At Ferrari bosses have no opportunity, against Erzrivale McLaren to shoot.

After Luca di Montezemolo also accused chief technology Aldo Costa McLaren-Mercedes, Ferrari-secret data for the construction of the new MP4-23 used to have. "The documentary, which was made available McLaren, has given them the opportunity to spread the benefits of Ferrari technical concepts to understand," Costa refers to the Ferrari factory director Nigel Stepney to McLaren-designer Mike Coughlan passed, 780-page mystery Dossier. "I would therefore say that know-how of Ferrari in the new McLaren is incorporated."

A hard allegation, vigorously denied Dennis ( "As our MP4-22 is based our new car exclusively on our ideas and our know-how") - and the World Federation FIA after Dennis' knee is no longer the case MP4-23. F1 boss Bernie Ecclestone himself gave the new Silver Arrow on Monday in Stuttgart his blessing.

Even for FIA president Max Mosley, Dennis, a fierce enemy, the espionage case after his public penance. Welfare law, if the Ferrari, the McLaren compares (see above). Expert Hans-Joachim Stuck: "Both cars are at first glance is so different, as is spaghetti and roast Swabian rust."

But Montezemolo and Co. tear vernarbten the fresh wounds again. And even sprinkle salt into it. Former team boss Jean Todt criticized the FIA decision for the standard electronics SECU McLaren: "We would have preferred if the only control unit for all Formula 1 teams from another company would have been built."

[undersquare]

Some of the quotes are quite old, though. On reflection, maybe all of them...

[Sébastien]

Well Express is just a piece of **** rag, I don't understand why anybody would start a thread with that as the basis??

Ohh well it's the off-season I guess

[Mika Mika]

Originally posted by Sébastien
Well Express is just a piece of **** rag, I don't understand why anybody would start a thread with that as the basis??

Ohh well it's the off-season I guess

Totally, must be a slow news day!!!!

Maybe Luca is upset that Stepney's book is going to come out after all, and the truth about him spending 50% of Ferraris budget on fake tan oil will come out

[ashnathan]

Luca Di Montezemolo is an idiot and always has been. its a new season, all that spygate crap is gone now, and what does he do? he kicks the season off with whinging about it and brings al the spygate stuff that was left behind, back into the new year.

really shows how much he cares about the sport, hes a bitter man who thinks his opinion matters, he only pops up in the media if hes criticizing other teams. no place in f1 for people like that.

[Chiara]

Originally posted by Mika Mika


Totally, must be a slow news day!!!!

Maybe Luca is upset that Stepney's book is going to come out after all, and the truth about him spending 50% of Ferraris budget on fake tan oil will come out

I wish he'd spend the other 50% on getting his hair cut - I mean that barnet went out in the 70's didnt it? :

[interneth8machine]

here comes the excuses already in case McLaren beat them. Why are italians always this unsportmanly.

but it's OK for ferrari to copy the Toyota nose

[big x]

Originally posted by interneth8machine
Why are italians always this unsportmanly ?

Because they don't play cricket at school

Ferrari management do seem to be unable to separate what's good for the sport and what's good for Ferrari.
If they lose it's regarded as bad for the sport. If they win the natural order is re-established.
Little Satan Mclaren teamed up with the evil empire Microsoft is the ultimate Anglo-Saxon conspiracy and the cue for further hysteria from the men in red.


adam

[hobbes]

lets just drop this thread.. unless they say something new or whatever, or give evidence why the new McLaren is a silver ferrari, i wont even bother with the issue. It's pointless and its over

[Menace]

Seriously, is every thread really worth a flame war?

[Chiara]

Originally posted by Menace
Seriously, is every thread really worth a flame war?

Agreed, it seems every thread has a nasty habit of turning into the same subject. Some people seem to take any opportunity they can to get a dig in at the rival team just to stir things up again. There seems to be a mentality whereby forum members make inflammatory comments they know are going to upset a certain collective of fans to get a response, but then complain when someone does the same to them. Double Standards.

And please let's not go down the route of making mass generalisations about an entire nation of people based on the conduct/comments of one person, it's quite rude and insulting. And I suspect if your nationality was on the receiving end you wouldn't particularly like it much either.

[Scudetto]

Originally posted by interneth8machine
here comes the excuses already in case McLaren beat them. Why are italians always this unsportmanly.

but it's OK for ferrari to copy the Toyota nose

Is your epic stupidity and ignorance a product of environment or pedigree? Just wondering.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by undersquare

A hard allegation, vigorously denied Dennis ( "As our MP4-22 is based our new car exclusively on our ideas and our know-how") - and the World Federation FIA after Dennis' knee is no longer the case MP4-23. F1 boss Bernie Ecclestone himself gave the new Silver Arrow on Monday in Stuttgart his blessing.

Even for FIA president Max Mosley, Dennis, a fierce enemy, the espionage case after his public penance. Welfare law, if the Ferrari, the McLaren compares (see above). Expert Hans-Joachim Stuck: "Both cars are at first glance is so different, as is spaghetti and roast Swabian rust."

Quite.

[airwise]

It's sad how the Scuderia feel the need to denigrate their opposition before the season gets underway. The amount they have had to say about Hamilton these past few weeks suggests they are genuinely worried. Luca is no stranger to mind games. But it would be nice if they just shut up and got on with the job of developing a championship winning car.

[Galko877]

Originally posted by airwise
It's sad how the Scuderia feel the need to denigrate their opposition before the season gets underway. The amount they have had to say about Hamilton these past few weeks suggests they are genuinely worried. Luca is no stranger to mind games. But it would be nice if they just shut up and got on with the job of developing a championship winning car.

I like Ferrari but I agree with you. Montezemolo is clearly overdoing it already. He should shut up and be a good winner, not a bad one. I also realized they take every opportunity to play mind-games against Hamilton. I too think that's because they know he is their biggest opponent for 2008.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I think they simply get besieged with questions about what went on last year and what could happen next year. And shock, horror, surprise; they answer those questions. They've had a press meeting the last week, what do you expect them to do?

[Mauseri]

Originally posted by Showty
Here we go again.

Why should we forget before it's over. McLaren learned Ferrari throughoutly last year and this year they are able to take benefit of it, too. It takes a couple years before it's all old and meaningless.

[se7en_24]

Originally posted by Scudetto


Is your epic stupidity and ignorance a product of environment or pedigree? Just wondering.

I think personal insults are banned on this forum.

[hobbes]

Originally posted by se7en_24

I think personal insults are banned on this forum.

exceptions should be made

[rodlamas]

Montezemolo is really an asshole.

I would never imagine a company's CEO bashing its main rival on the he does.

[undersquare]

Originally posted by micra_k10

Why should we forget before it's over. McLaren learned Ferrari throughoutly last year and this year they are able to take benefit of it, too. It takes a couple years before it's all old and meaningless.

McLaren and Ferrari observe each other closely every year. They take photos, make estimates, and trade staff, in both directions.

A Ferrari staff member was a mole, so both teams have some responsibility. This would have looked more like what it was if Stepney had been Italian, I think.

All the FIA investigations found were three minor items, one of which McLaren had already looked at in 2001.

McLaren have recruited a senior aerodynamicist from Ferrari, who is quite legally going to tell them a lot more than Stepney.

McLaren had a huge fine and repercussions from losing their WCC points.

IMO there is a fair balance in how all this adds up. The 2008 cars look quite different, and the extent to which they have converged from 2007 is in all probability from legal observation.

Any claims now that the 2008 competition is unfair are unsporting, IMO. Ferrari and their fans can only lose respect by exaggerating it.

[SeanValen]

Mclaren's reputation was dented big time in 2007, they were cheats, it will take perhaps a big overhaul of the organization over time, and long after Ron Dennis has left, and some new people are involved to shape Mclaren their own way and let drivers keep their original trophies, then perhaps Mclaren start to mend the damages of the 2007 season.

Ferrari have earnt to say what they want, they are the Godfathers of Formula One, Luca is Al Pacino, don't mess with Luca.

[Scudetto]

Originally posted by se7en_24

I think personal insults are banned on this forum.

It wasn't an insult. I was merely asking about a condition he clearly demonstrated himself to suffer from.

[Lifew12]

Originally posted by SeanValen
Mclaren's reputation was dented big time in 2007, they were cheats,

So were Renault - why is their reputation not 'dented big time'?

[hobbes]

Originally posted by Scudetto


It wasn't an insult. I was merely asking about a condition he clearly demonstrated himself to suffer from.

its amazing how there are so many threads bout the same issue and yet we manage every single time to look at it from a different point of view.

[kar]

Because they didn't lie about it as habitually as McLaren did. They didn't spread misinformation in the press about their involvement or those of other teams. They didn't repeatedly try to ruin the championship with un-sporting, un-founded and illegal protests. Their involvement in spying related to a miniscule amount of data relative to McLaren's, and they, unlike McLaren, were not shown to have tried to use that data for their 2008 car, or simulate tests of it on their 2007 one.

One of Renault's employees got caught doing something stupid. McLaren as a whole organisation got caught out doing something stupid, lying about it, and waging a damaging media campaign against the governing body and its competitors to bluster its way out of the hole it had dug for itself.

Renault acted with forthright alacrity. McLaren at best acted with patronising self-interest and poor sportsmanship. And at worst acted illegally, immorally and in gross disrespect of the sport and its fans.

[Lazarus II]

Originally posted by SeanValen
they are the Godfathers of Formula One, Luca is Al Pacino, don't mess with Luca.

Ummm, Al Pacino is an actor.....oh wait, so is Luca. You're right, they are one and the same

As usual, I can see that many here need to get a grip on reality.

F1 is about the business of entertainment PERIOD

You are NOT part of the team or family (unless you work for them or an immediate family does).
If you are a direct vendor for that team, they are a business vendor not family or true friend (as you would find out if your product was found inferior to another).

[hobbes]

Originally posted by Lazarus II

Ummm, Al Pacino is an actor.....oh wait, so is Luca. You're right, they are one and the same

and formula 1 is a movie then

[Chiara]

Has anyone seen the film Groundhog Day? Just curious.

[kar]

Originally posted by hobbes


and formula 1 is a movie then

Or at least a pantomime... :-)

[santori]

I like Luca's hair.

[Lazarus II]

Originally posted by hobbes


and formula 1 is a movie then

It's entertainment.

[Scudetto]

Originally posted by Chiara
Has anyone seen the film Groundhog Day? Just curious.

You mean to imply that F1 will be the same monotonous toil season to season until someone sleeps with Andie MacDowell?

[undersquare]

Originally posted by kar
Because they didn't lie about it as habitually as McLaren did. They didn't spread misinformation in the press about their involvement or those of other teams. They didn't repeatedly try to ruin the championship with un-sporting, un-founded and illegal protests. Their involvement in spying related to a miniscule amount of data relative to McLaren's, and they, unlike McLaren, were not shown to have tried to use that data for their 2008 car, or simulate tests of it on their 2007 one.

One of Renault's employees got caught doing something stupid. McLaren as a whole organisation got caught out doing something stupid, lying about it, and waging a damaging media campaign against the governing body and its competitors to bluster its way out of the hole it had dug for itself.

Renault acted with forthright alacrity. McLaren at best acted with patronising self-interest and poor sportsmanship. And at worst acted illegally, immorally and in gross disrespect of the sport and its fans.

A fine example of what Montezemolo is trying to whip up. Wild exaggeration. Words used because they are derogatory but, in their context, meaningless. "Patronising self-interest"? What's that?

A refusal to compete on the track in 2008.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Originally posted by Scudetto


You mean to imply that F1 will be the same monotonous toil season to season until someone sleeps with Andie MacDowell?

The scene where they drive into the quarry is Toyota.

[Lifew12]

Originally posted by kar
Because they didn't lie about it as habitually as McLaren did. They didn't spread misinformation in the press about their involvement or those of other teams. They didn't repeatedly try to ruin the championship with un-sporting, un-founded and illegal protests. Their involvement in spying related to a miniscule amount of data relative to McLaren's, and they, unlike McLaren, were not shown to have tried to use that data for their 2008 car, or simulate tests of it on their 2007 one.

One of Renault's employees got caught doing something stupid. McLaren as a whole organisation got caught out doing something stupid, lying about it, and waging a damaging media campaign against the governing body and its competitors to bluster its way out of the hole it had dug for itself.

Renault acted with forthright alacrity. McLaren at best acted with patronising self-interest and poor sportsmanship. And at worst acted illegally, immorally and in gross disrespect of the sport and its fans.

What bollocks. It was well known at Renault that Mclaren drawings were floating about, yet they didn't come forward and say so until somebody snitched on them! How is that 'forthright alacrity'? Surely, not telling the governing body in the hope that no-one would find out is acting in ones self interest?

I love the 'Renault were not shown to have tried to use the data for their 2008 car' bit' no, of course, the drawings were just for Mackereths kids to scribble on.

Really, kar, either you are astonishingly naive - which the clarity and intelligence of many of your posts displays otherwise - or you are happy to hide behind falsities in the hope that the world percieves McLaren as the only team that could possibly be guilty of such terrible crimes.

[Juan Kerr]

de Montezemelo must go, the only clever thing Ferrari did in the last 20 years was hire Michael Schumacher and he's someone that Mercedes groomed. If it wasn't for Michael they would've remained in the doldrums. McLaren have always been trend setters and sportsman it was always Ferrari that cheated.
Luca's just showing his insecurity, afterall if its a Ferrari copy then it wont be any faster will it ?

[Melbourne Park]

Ferrari can enjoy these sunny days, where they have a single McLaren team threatening them. But over the mountains, BMW and Honda and Renault march forward hidden behind the excitement of pointing fingers at McLaren. Ferrari would be best to stick to their knitting, and focus on their own business, as they have previously done until a couple of years ago - complaining about McLaren is not going to make the F cars faster.

[SeanValen]

Originally posted by Melbourne Park
Ferrari can enjoy these sunny days, where they have a single McLaren team threatening them. But over the mountains, BMW and Honda and Renault march forward hidden behind the excitement of pointing fingers at McLaren. Ferrari would be best to stick to their knitting, and focus on their own business, as they have previously done until a couple of years ago - complaining about McLaren is not going to make the F cars faster.

Interesting, were Ferrari more polite through the media to their rivals when Schumacher was around

[hobbes]

sportsmen indeed

[oneGurneyfan]

Originally posted by Chiara
Has anyone seen the film Groundhog Day? Just curious.

Yes, I have seen it, and it seemed to be about the emptiness of a life led in self-absorption, sarcasm, and a general negative view of others and their worth; and wasn't it trying to establish the personal benefits derived from the daily enjoyment of those we live and communicate with?

Ah, who knows, maybe I missed the point of the movie.

[Chiara]

Originally posted by Juan Kerr
de Montezemelo must go, the only clever thing Ferrari did in the last 20 years was hire Michael Schumacher and he's someone that Mercedes groomed. If it wasn't for Michael they would've remained in the doldrums. McLaren have always been trend setters and sportsman it was always Ferrari that cheated.
Luca's just showing his insecurity, afterall if its a Ferrari copy then it wont be any faster will it ?

You clearly haven't got the first clue what your talking about if you don't know the significant part Luca di Montezemolo played in the revival of Ferrari's fortunes since he became President in 1991. Perhaps you might want to get a bit more educated on that before making silly statements like that above.

Without Luca di Montezemolo, Jean Todt would not have been brought to Ferrari - and he was instrumental in turning around the fortunes of the racing team by bringing to Maranello all their key players. This core group of people took the team and changed beyond recognition their methods and working practices, and it was this that was largely responsible for Ferrari's success record in the last 10 years. Michael Schumacher was one part of that success not the whole reason for it.

You ask any modern F1 team, or in fact any of the F1 engineers that frequent this forum, it takes every single person in an F1 team to make it successful - not just the driver.

[united]

Express run a story of Alonso signing for BMW-Sauber a couple of months ago. So much for Cologne tabloids.

[se7en_24]

Originally posted by united
Express run a story of Alonso signing for BMW-Sauber a couple of months ago. So much for Cologne tabloids.

Speculation is something completely different to direct quotes.

[Chiara]

Originally posted by se7en_24

Speculation is something completely different to direct quotes.

I'm undecided if they are simliar quotes as we have heard before that have been made again recently, or a bit of artist license on part of the publication to rehash some old ones to make a story out of in the absence of anything else to talk about. I wouldn't put it past the media to be the latter....

[airwise]

Originally posted by santori
I like Luca's hair.

How can you be sure it's his?

[Juan Kerr]

Originally posted by Chiara


You clearly haven't got the first clue what your talking about if you don't know the significant part Luca di Montezemolo played in the revival of Ferrari's fortunes since he became President in 1991. Perhaps you might want to get a bit more educated on that before making silly statements like that above.

Without Luca di Montezemolo, Jean Todt would not have been brought to Ferrari - and he was instrumental in turning around the fortunes of the racing team by bringing to Maranello all their key players. This core group of people took the team and changed beyond recognition their methods and working practices, and it was this that was largely responsible for Ferrari's success record in the last 10 years. Michael Schumacher was one part of that success not the whole reason for it.

You ask any modern F1 team, or in fact any of the F1 engineers that frequent this forum, it takes every single person in an F1 team to make it successful - not just the driver.

You forgot a bit '....Jean Todt would not have brought (Michael Schumacher) to Ferrari....'