63 replies to this topic

[jimm]

When asked about Ralf driving DTM-"I would not advise him to take up this offer. I don't believe we are gifted enough to drive with success in DTM . I know I am not. I tried it once. If you take enough time, then maybe you could be successful, but most Formula One drivers haven't had much success. It's very difficult for a driver in th is series to have to have the time to develop the cars."

What do you think??? Used to be, F1 drivers were the best in the world...now are they only specialists? Does this shed light on JPM's stent in NASCAR? Maybe all these "top" series select mainly for those who excel in THOSE series and say nothing about overall driver talent...other side, maybe you are trained for a certain style and that is it.

TO me, if true, it puts in perspective what Andretti, Clark, Stewart and others have done in the past by winning in all types of cars.

[BuonoBruttoCattivo]

Originally posted by jimm
What do you think???

What do I think??
I think that even MS can say stupid/bullshit things...
The words of drivers are not the word of god, a little critical thinking is in order here jimm, don't take everything that is said at face value...
Driver calibre/ability hasn't changed since Andretti/Clarke, its just that the business has changed...

MS didn't do well in DTM, but he was great in Group C, so he is making a fool of himself with that quote...
So he's 'prolly protecting his bruther...

[kar]

Different eras. Today tenths separate the good from the brilliant and from them to the other worldly.

Professionalism and competitiveness has meant to be the top of your discipline you not only need a certain amount of talent, but a cradle to the grave dedication to your activity. Talent will take you so far but specialization is required to be the best these days.

Not to say it's impossible but I think the days of Moss et all being masters of all disciplines four wheels are long since past.

[MikeTekRacing]

he's just saying it's different job, driving open wheelers and hard tops.
we saw it in RoC, he was blown by eckstrom in cars but he blew Eckstrom in the buggy...same drivers, same track, equal cars....it's just a different job

he's not saying f1 drivers can't be good in dtm..he just says it's difficult to be at the top in another job.

[hobbes]

and when he said we, im pretty sure he was talking bout himself and his brother

[jimm]

Originally posted by hobbes
and when he said we, im pretty sure he was talking bout himself and his brother

So, the most successful F1 driver ever is not good enough to compete in DTM but some of the "lesser" ones would be?;)

Originally posted by BuonoBruttoCattivo
What do I think??
I think that even MS can say stupid/bullshit things...
The words of drivers are not the word of god, a little critical thinking is in order here jimm, don't take everything that is said at face value...
Driver calibre/ability hasn't changed since Andretti/Clarke, its just that the business has changed...

MS didn't do well in DTM, but he was great in Group C, so he is making a fool of himself with that quote...
So he's 'prolly protecting his bruther...

Easy there....I think the "critical thinking" finger should point both ways here. If you notice, I made no judgement other than taking applying the theory to a broader context "if true " (a key phrase in my post).

My question actually had to do with your point which was, has the buisness changed to the point where F1 drivers are ONLY trained to do F1 or that F1 SELECTS for drivers with a subset of skills narrow enough to exclude high calibre performances in other top catagories.

[Durant]

Schumacher simply says you cant just jump into DTM and be at the top right away. You need to be brought up on it. Althought it is weird that arguably the most talented driver of all time expresses such things. Very sobering.

[robnyc]

Like Mario Andretti very few in the history of Motoracing , he won is basically every thing he raced, stock cars, midget cars, sprint cars, IndyCars, drag racing cars, sports cars, and Formula One cars.

. For someone like Michael to recognize this it means a lot.

[hobbes]

not all formula 1 drivers are the same obviously, and maybe someone less talented in F1 than MS could do better in DTM. i really dont think he was talking bout any F1 driver, and the fact that he was modest enough to admit he doesnt believe he is talented enough for it, even though he has nothing to prove and could just simply lie, says a lot

[V8 Fireworks]

Very unusual,

but it's not simple to be fastest in DTM, just like F1, modern control tyres & rev limits imply a move to analysing hundreths in the data, not just tenths......

Difficult to lap fastest unless the car is already the fastest, certainly a slow car will take a year or more to develop to the pace... but if the car is slow to start with, the team probably doesn't really know what they are doing (they spent $2m a year for example to hire an ex F1 driver for one thing ;) ), subsquently progress will be difficult.....

in other news, mercedes will use a dtm car to break unofficial lap record of bathurst mt. panorama circuit, having sponsored a historics meet at the track and sharing the track hire costs, the chance used for promotion of a newly released vehicle...

an example of the spongily-sprung cars that have tradtionally lapped the circuit...

the unofficial lap record...
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

[the9th]

My respect for the guy is reaching new highs... He's saying he doesn't feel that he can make as much of a difference in a tintop. That's sensible. He'd find GP2 disturbingly challenging, probably to a lesser magnitude. An exceptional driver, like himself, thrives when sheer levels of "cunning" are highly on demand. That's F1. Although he's unquestionably one of the all time greats, there's lots of talented people around, so it shouldn't be natural for anyone to thrash what is supposed to be an elite field for years in succession. Only if Bernie says so. Something has got to be wrong. Ferrari that is...

[snx843]

Tell that Mansell, when the conditions were crap, the playing field level he did this

I think it would take time to get "into" any new formula unless you are running a "spec" series, fixed setup, hard tyres etc..

Knowledge is power, and takes time to learn. Throw all the knowledge anyway in a wet race, you'd see the best come to the top?

[Nitropower]

He's not saying anything strange. DTM requires a very different style,skills and knowledge on that type of car. Schumi recently said he needed to see the wheels to take the corners properly...
It'd be the same for a DTM driver to drive a F1 car for the 1st time. It would take time to get adapted and that wouldn't guarantee to be good enough.

[emburmak]

Driving open wheels and hard tops in the modern era requires different skills. Not that a great like MS can't do it, but to achieve greatness is another matter. Rossi an acknowledged Moto Gp great came to F1` testing and saw he could not cut it. MS was qucik testing the Ducati, but Stoner quick?? And as MH himself proved, the era of a driver being the best in everything with wheels is long in the past.

[PassWind]

Its interesting that MS says that, though I believe his honesty of course, but with speculation of what he might do racing wise it kind of limits what he thinks he might be decent at.

He sounds twixt between what he was, only racing for everything and working out how to be a professional semi-part time racer like those in LM or GT cars.

I think he will race something in the future but what?

[Suntrek]

Originally posted by Nitropower
He's not saying anything strange. DTM requires a very different style,skills and knowledge on that type of car. Schumi recently said he needed to see the wheels to take the corners properly...
It'd be the same for a DTM driver to drive a F1 car for the 1st time. It would take time to get adapted and that wouldn't guarantee to be good enough.

See DTM 2005 season. The Macca boys 2 x WDC Häkkinen and F1-testdriver-to-be-and probably-never-anything-more Paffet in the same car. Who came out on top? True, Mika was a rookie (and older, not older than MS though) but he hasn't had much of a success later either, he's been regularly beaten by his teammates.

Oh and the most successful F1 driver - by far - in DTM is Johnny Cecotto - Senna's teammate in Toleman 84. If anybody remembers him...

So MS is absolutely right - and kudos to him for having the bravery to state that even if you are great in an F1 car you are not automatically great in everything that has a steering wheel.

Jeez, I said something positive about MS...

[speedy]

Originally posted by Suntrek




See DTM 2005 season. The Macca boys 2 x WDC Häkkinen and F1-testdriver-to-be-and probably-never-anything-more Paffet in the same car. Who came out on top? True, Mika was a rookie (and older, not older than MS though) but he hasn't had much of a success later either, he's been regularly beaten by his teammates.

Oh and the most successful F1 driver - by far - in DTM is Johnny Cecotto - Senna's teammate in Toleman 84. If anybody remembers him...

So MS is absolutely right - and kudos to him for having the bravery to state that even if you are great in an F1 car you are not automatically great in everything that has a steering wheel.

Jeez, I said something positive about MS...

Agree - I can not understand why some people react in such a harsh way when a 7 * F1 WDC says an obvious truth which has been proved to be a correct statement in the light of statistics.

I remember Johnny Cecotto from motorcycling - I have seen him live a few times in the 70's in Imatra when they used to drive on the street circuit. He was the man who ended Agostini's 7 year wdc streak in 350 cc class. He is also posessing the highest pole position percentage in 500 cc class during one season. Me and him have one thing in common, we were born in the same year

[Mauseri]

I think he is right. In F1 you need much more than driving talent. F1 cars are much faster so it puts the driver on different tests. You need more physics, more nerves, more guts, more development skills, a team which backs you, ...

If a driver has spent 15 years in F1 he may not have the best skill to compete in DTM.

[Galko877]

Isn't he right? Mika won the odd race in DTM but didn't achieve anything big there and he was regularly outdriven by his more specialist teammates. Same as Alesi or Frentzen. And they were all pretty good F1 drivers, esp. Mika.

I have always been a big admirerer of Andretti for reaching the top in virtually every series he raced in but I'm not sure that would be possible in today's motorsports.

BTW, notice that Michael added: " If you take enough time, then maybe you could be successful". So he didn't say it's completely impossible for an F1 driver to be successful in touring cars or anywhere else but just because you are a F1 star you can't jump in anywhere and beat anybody there. You have to have respect for the guys who are specialists in that area and that's exactly what Michael does here.

EDIT: But then Michael is always a bit pessimistic. Before he came to F1 he attended a race in Monaco and saw Bernd Schneider driving there and watching him he thought it's too tough and he couldn't be good enough in F1.

[Buttoneer]

Gary Paffett. DTM champ but just can't quite get to De La Rosa speeds in F1.

Mika Hakkinen. 2x F! WDC but couldn't quite get the DTM championship in the bag.

They're just different, that's all and Schumi is wrong.

[Frans]

Its interesting that MS says that, though I believe his honesty of course,

yeah, well.. hahahaha, ... must make the remark, he only said HE cannot do it. (And his little Bro., but everybody already knows he was not much of F1 material really)

But yet he speaks for all F1 drivers in general, what kind of a God-complex does that man still have? Sjeeeez...

[hobbes]

There is no way in hell you can know whether he was speaking for himself and his brother, or for all the drivers. The way he said it, is pretty vague and if you analyse it, who knows what the guy meant, even if he possibly said it in a wrong way? He didnt sign anything declaring all F1 drivers would be useless in DTM and i doubt he would think anything like that and last but not least - its his opinion.

[hello86]

I read this interview in german.

And with he means himself and his brother, so not f1drivers in general.

[karlth]

Some background info is probably needed. The reason why Michael says he would do badly in DTM is because he did do badly in DTM.

He drove around 4 races as a guest driver for the Mercedes DTM team in 1990 and 1991 and performed fairly poorly.

Then again a lot of F1 drivers failed to shine in tintops.

http://freenet-homep...esevo/Bild1.jpg

[GiancarloF1]

Originally posted by micra_k10
I think he is right. In F1 you need much more than driving talent. F1 cars are much faster so it puts the driver on different tests. You need more physics, more nerves, more guts, more development skills, a team which backs you, ...

If a driver has spent 15 years in F1 he may not have the best skill to compete in DTM.

Spot on.

[GiancarloF1]

Originally posted by hello86
I read this interview in german.

And with he means himself and his brother, so not f1drivers in general.

He means f1 drivers in general.

[Suntrek]

Originally posted by Frans
But yet he speaks for all F1 drivers in general, what kind of a God-complex does that man still have? Sjeeeez...

*Alonso-misquote-syndrome warning!*

No he doesn't. Yet another oversimplified quote due to the fact that not everybody on this godforsaken planet have English as their first language.

He explicitly speaks for himself and his brother. The whole point being that he wants to discourage Ralf from going to DTM.

http://www.motorspor...b_08011117.html

Quick translation of the valid parts:

"I don't think Ralf and I are talented enough to be really quick in DTM. I've already driven in DTM once. If you take your time and really work the material thoroughly it might be possible. But most that have come from F1 to DTM has obtained but a couple of results that you can respect, nothing more.

DTM is another world. The performance demands are very high. You must work as hard as in F1, but drive a car that isn't "develop-able" (weird word but you get the point - original German says "going forward" ) and that you can't fine-tune according to your needs as you can with a F1 car."

[robnyc]

DTM sucks now.. the true test now is NASCAR. Audi wanted both JPM and JV and they said no thanks. Had they both been racing in DTM by this year, you would probably have seen Ralf going there too. If Ralf wants to do something different, challenging and highly competitive he should consider going to the US and see if his racing talent can adjust to a completely different skill set. JPM is already doing it..

[Clatter]

I think his comment also ignores the fact that most successful F1 drivers looking to move to DTM will be doing so because they are starting to find it difficult to maintain the levels required. I don't believe they will suddenly find an injection of speed just because they have changed series.

[GhostR]

Originally posted by V8 Fireworks
an example of the spongily-sprung cars that have tradtionally lapped the circuit...

Track's changed a bit since then... and although much safer, the somewhat unique hazards remain (remember kangaroos bouncing across the track during races in recent years).

the unofficial lap record...
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Seeing that lap still gives me goosebumps. He was so in the zone for that lap.

[Tenmantaylor]

Originally posted by jimm
When asked about Ralf driving DTM-"I would not advise him to take up this offer. I don't believe we are gifted enough to drive with success in DTM . I know I am not. I tried it once. If you take enough time, then maybe you could be successful, but most Formula One drivers haven't had much success. It's very difficult for a driver in th is series to have to have the time to develop the cars."

What do you think??? Used to be, F1 drivers were the best in the world...now are they only specialists? Does this shed light on JPM's stent in NASCAR? Maybe all these "top" series select mainly for those who excel in THOSE series and say nothing about overall driver talent...other side, maybe you are trained for a certain style and that is it.

TO me, if true, it puts in perspective what Andretti, Clark, Stewart and others have done in the past by winning in all types of cars.

Id have to agree with most of your musings but Id be tempted to point out people like Hakkinen, Alesi and Frentzen were probably past their best and had driven F1 so long a switch was never going to be easy. Derek Warwick (F1 Turbo era driver) got trounced in the BTCC.

The talent pool for motorsports is far bigger now than it has ever been meaning it is more likely for someone who is destined to succeed at a particular discipline gets a chance to.

Schumacher being beaten convincingly by Touring specialist Ekstrom in the ROC would appear to back up his comments. That said given his approach and dedication Im sure MS could give the DTM boys a whipping over a season. Id also like to see him race in a series where you can get away with a bit of wheel to wheel action.

[jimm]

Originally posted by Suntrek


*Alonso-misquote-syndrome warning!*

No he doesn't. Yet another oversimplified quote due to the fact that not everybody on this godforsaken planet have English as their first language.

He explicitly speaks for himself and his brother. The whole point being that he wants to discourage Ralf from going to DTM.

http://www.motorspor...b_08011117.html

Quick translation of the valid parts:

"I don't think Ralf and I are talented enough to be really quick in DTM. I've already driven in DTM once. If you take your time and really work the material thoroughly it might be possible. But most that have come from F1 to DTM has obtained but a couple of results that you can respect, nothing more.

DTM is another world. The performance demands are very high. You must work as hard as in F1, but drive a car that isn't "develop-able" (weird word but you get the point - original German says "going forward" ) and that you can't fine-tune according to your needs as you can with a F1 car."

But in a car that is not dependant on development, would not driving talent mean more?

[Suntrek]

Originally posted by jimm


But in a car that is not dependant on development, would not driving talent mean more?

Define "driving talent"...;)

Talent will only take you that far, whatever you do. The rest is hard work and experience.

I can be a talented tennisplayer. Does that necessarily mean I will be equally good in tabletennis or squash just because it involves a ball and a racquet? What if Federer switched to tabletennis tomorrow? Would he win the world championship just like that?

[TT6]

Did he explained his 2nd pace in ROC final with the fact that he can't see his front wheels like in F1 with non open wheel car?

[Dragonfly]

Originally posted by MikeTekRacing
he's just saying it's different job, driving open wheelers and hard tops.
we saw it in RoC, he was blown by eckstrom in cars but he blew Eckstrom in the buggy...same drivers, same track, equal cars....it's just a different job

he's not saying f1 drivers can't be good in dtm..he just says it's difficult to be at the top in another job.

That's how I understand his words too.

[Group B]

Originally posted by Suntrek


Define "driving talent"...;)

Talent will only take you that far, whatever you do. The rest is hard work and experience.

I can be a talented tennisplayer....

I offer you Kafelnikov and Muster; one huge talent with dodgy attitude, one huge attitude with dodgy talent. They the both very good, but a combination of the two would be awesome.

[se7en_24]

I said the same thing as Schumacher in 2005 and the reaction I got from Finnish fans and Alesi fans was pretty insane. I was proved right in the end though and those top seats were indeed wasted in the end by ex-F1 drivers. Who knows how well Mercedes might have done with Di Resta and Paffett in 2007 cars last season.

[Sébastien]

Originally posted by Group B


I offer you Kafelnikov and Muster; one huge talent with dodgy attitude, one huge attitude with dodgy talent. They the both very good, but a combination of the two would be awesome.

Good one Group B, although the first one to come to my mind would be Goran IvaniÅ¡ević rather than Kafelnikov

[Tenmantaylor]

Paul "Gazza" Gascoyne probably even more apt.

[wonk123]

Originally posted by V8 Fireworks
Very unusual,

but it's not simple to be fastest in DTM, just like F1, modern control tyres & rev limits imply a move to analysing hundreths in the data, not just tenths......

Difficult to lap fastest unless the car is already the fastest, certainly a slow car will take a year or more to develop to the pace... but if the car is slow to start with, the team probably doesn't really know what they are doing (they spent $2m a year for example to hire an ex F1 driver for one thing ;) ), subsquently progress will be difficult.....

in other news, mercedes will use a dtm car to break unofficial lap record of bathurst mt. panorama circuit, having sponsored a historics meet at the track and sharing the track hire costs, the chance used for promotion of a newly released vehicle...

an example of the spongily-sprung cars that have tradtionally lapped the circuit...

the unofficial lap record...
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Interesting that they assume that they will break the unnoficial lap record.
Mt Panorama is a peculiar place, and they have no development for it specifically.
The DTM brakes and aero will definetely be a big plus for them, but not convinced that running simulations on a computer prepares you properly for a place like that

[kodandaram]

I think with DTM its more difficult to find the limit and stay on it for ppl who are used to an F1 car . Just my thought . Razor sharp handling of an F1 car might allow you to find the edge easier and you know when you are going to the limit than on a rather sloppy feel (relatively speaking OC) from a saloon series...

[Oho]

Originally posted by se7en_24
I said the same thing as Schumacher in 2005 and the reaction I got from Finnish fans and Alesi fans was pretty insane. I was proved right in the end though and those top seats were indeed wasted in the end by ex-F1 drivers. Who knows how well Mercedes might have done with Di Resta and Paffett in 2007 cars last season.

Bollocks, you got the reaction mostly for labeling Häkkinen a journeyman F1 reject and not just once or by accident, not for being skeptical of his chances in DTM.

Schumacher says he is not certain he would succeed on DTM on account of it being a all together different kettle of fish, where as you for all intents and purposes said Häkkinen would fail in DTM on account of being and having always been crap. Not the same thing.

[Imperial]

DTM drivers (who aren't ex-F1) are very good at DTM but I doubt they'd very good at F1.

Why should it be any different in reverse?

[AFCA]

Apperantly Ralf Schumacher and Christian Klien will be testing for Mercedes DTM on Tuesday and Wednesday in Estoril...

[sensible]

Originally posted by karlth


Some background info is probably needed. The reason why Michael says he would do badly in DTM is because he did do badly in DTM.

He drove around 4 races as a guest driver for the Mercedes DTM team in 1990 and 1991 and performed fairly poorly.

Then again a lot of F1 drivers failed to shine in tintops.

http://freenet-homep...esevo/Bild1.jpg

Just cant resist an opportunity for something negative. Read teh quote again. Schumacher says he would probably do badly because he isnt good enough in that series: "I know. I tried"

[Galko877]

Originally posted by AFCA
Apperantly Ralf Schumacher and Christian Klien will be testing for Mercedes DTM on Tuesday and Wednesday in Estoril...

Michael once said he always had to be careful of how he is giving advices to Ralf when they were kids because Ralf would always do the opposite. Maybe that's what we see now?

[as65p]

In any case, to MS for being open and honest about his rather low-key touring car experience... and another , for obviously being clever enough to not try it again.;)

[karlth]

Originally posted by as65p
In any case, to MS for being open and honest about his rather low-key touring car experience... and another , for obviously being clever enough to not try it again.;)

Michael's comments after the RoC at Wembley were interesting. He has to see the wheels of the car he is driving.

It is strange though to see that in recent years there has never been very successful crossover from touring car racing to F1, or vice versa.

Sportcars yes, but not touring cars.

[Frans]

pfft,

for me he can stay and drive that Ferrari lawnmower for the rest of his life.

[eoin]

Ralf has to be the worst F1 racer, that has had some success, in the ~15 years that i have been watching the sport. I can only see a stint in DTM ending in tears.