38 replies to this topic

[dbw]

with DCN's seemingly innocent post about his ruminations on his youth and the responses the have turned it into a thread of which circuit is/was where/when..i would like to hear from more informed and,please, impartial members as to where the roots of racing actually were...apart from horseless carriage reliability runs,where and when did man and machine get together in a group on a dedicated circuit and go at it?

please attempt to include the americas in the discussion [hint- ford, winton, curtiss, etc.

[HDonaldCapps]

Originally posted by dbw
please attempt to include the americas in the discussion [hint- ford, winton, curtiss, etc. [/B]

How thoughtful....

The first motor racing event held on a closed track in the USA was at Narragansett Park at the Rhode Island State Fair, Cranston, Rhode Island, on 7 September 1896. The track was an oval and usually given to hosting horse races. It was a less than stellar performance due to rains soaking the track, but photos of the grandstands show a very, very large crowd in attendance. An electric vehicle won, the Riker Electric with A.L. Riker and C.H. Whiting aboard.

This is probably the advent of automobile racing in its modern sense, machines competing directly against each other on a closed circuit.

[Vitesse2]

AFAIK the first race for cars on a closed circuit in Europe was on October 22nd 1899 in Vienna, again on a horse racing track. There were six races: two scratch races for motorcycles (up to and over 200kg), a scratch race for cars up to 650kg, a scratch race for voiturettes up to 450kg and motorcycles, a handicap for voiturettes up to 450kg and motorcycles and a general handicap for cars. None of the races was over more than 5.5km.

[Darren Galpin]

There was a race for steam vehicles around a track in Oshkosh, WI, as part of the Green Bay-Madison run in July 1878. Two steam vehicles started side by side at the Oshkosh fairgrounds, the winner completing 1 mile in 4m41. The vehicle was known as an Oshkosh, and was driven by F.Shomer and A.M.Farrand.

[Maldwyn]

According to Bexhill on Sea the town is "the Birthplace of British Motor Racing".

Bexhill's motor races...were part of a campaign to promote Bexhill-on-Sea as a fashionable new resort and used the Bicycle Boulevard, which the 8th Earl De La Warr had built along De La Warr Parade in 1896.

In the May of 1902, the 8th Earl De La Warr worked, in conjunction with the Automobile Club of Great Britain and Ireland, subsequently the Royal Automobile Club, to organise the very first automobile racing on British soil.

http://www.discoverb...motorracing.php

[Darren Galpin]

Although this event at Bexhill was predated by a series of trials held at Crystal Palace on the 6th May 1899 over a 2 mile course. However, although timed, this is more of what would today be called a sprint rather than a race where all of the cars compete on the course at the same time.

[Stephen W]

Originally posted by Darren Galpin
Although this event at Bexhill was predated by a series of trials held at Crystal Palace on the 6th May 1899 over a 2 mile course. However, although timed, this is more of what would today be called a sprint rather than a race where all of the cars compete on the course at the same time.

At Bexhill they competed two at a time rather than the one at at time format used in sprints and hillclimbs.

[RAP]

Originally posted by Darren Galpin
Although this event at Bexhill was predated by a series of trials held at Crystal Palace on the 6th May 1899 over a 2 mile course. However, although timed, this is more of what would today be called a sprint rather than a race where all of the cars compete on the course at the same time.

The 6 May 1899 was more a trial than a sprint as, although timed, it included for example a requirement to come to a complete halt between two flags.

Races for motor cycles and tricycles were held regularly on the velodrome at Crystal Palace from Easter 1899 until at least 1906. However the first CAR ie 4 wheel vehicle race seems to have been a 1 mile (3 lap) handicap for Voiturettes on Easter Monday 8 April 1901, won By Charles Jarrott (8hp Panhard). In my researchs for my book I did not find any record of any other car race in this period, but it certainly beats Bexhill, whether or not it is correction to call that event a race. Bexhill does however has some claim due to the impotance, at the time, accorded to the event.

RAP

[HDonaldCapps]

Originally posted by Darren Galpin
There was a race for steam vehicles around a track in Oshkosh, WI, as part of the Green Bay-Madison run in July 1878. Two steam vehicles started side by side at the Oshkosh fairgrounds, the winner completing 1 mile in 4m41. The vehicle was known as an Oshkosh, and was driven by F.Shomer and A.M.Farrand.

Had other events followed, I would have nominated this event, but it became a "one-off" event, lost in the mists of time. Although it preceded the Narragansett Park by nearly two decades, the essential elements of automobile racing were in place -- machine versus machine, head-to-head, on a closed track. When I wrote about this event years ago, I was surprised that despite how hard I looked, I could find nothing on a follow-up event of a similar sort.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by RAP


Races for motor cycles and tricycles were held regularly on the velodrome at Crystal Palace from Easter 1899 ...

RAP

... which is three weeks before the first motorcycle race in Berlin, held on the velodrome at Friedenau on April 23rd 1899.

[Doug Nye]

Isn't there a less literal significance to the title 'the birthplace of racing' ????

Whatever the literal truth of whichever venue was the first used for 'racing' wouldn't the enduring title of 'the birthplace' infer something less ephemeral, more enduring, and plainly more significant, as in 'the place which truly established racing as a living, viable sport'?

Which venues do you think might lay sustainable claim to that?

DCN

[Jean L]

First race:
1887,Pont de Neuilly-Bois de Boulogne-Pont de Neuilly
but only one concurent present at the start ! :Georges Bouton/de Dion-Bouton.
Second race:
1888,Paris-Versailles-Paris
1st de Dion/de Dion-Bouton (25km/h),2nd Bouton/de Dion-Bouton.
First great race:
1894,june 22,Paris-Rouen.
1st de Dion-Bouton,2 Peugeot,3 Peugeot,4 Peugeot,5 Panhard et Levassor,6 Peugeot etc
1895,june 11,Paris-Bordeaux-Paris (1100km !) 22 concurents
1st Emile Levassor/Panhard et Levassor (48h47mn) 2nd Peugeot

[dbw]

gee doug.... those are some pretty big words for us colonials..[i had to ask my wife,a phd, about "ephemeral'] but for enduring and significant how 'bout indianapolis motor speedway...pretty much in constant use from 1909 thru 2007.....

..i do however like to throw a "diaphanous" or "verisimilitude" into a conversation when it gets boring...or perhaps a good "defenestration" at a silicon valley cocktail party.

[RA Historian]

Hmmmmm......and all along the American popular press has been telling us that racing was invented at Daytona Beach by Bill France

[Darren Galpin]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Isn't there a less literal significance to the title 'the birthplace of racing' ????

Whatever the literal truth of whichever venue was the first used for 'racing' wouldn't the enduring title of 'the birthplace' infer something less ephemeral, more enduring, and plainly more significant, as in 'the place which truly established racing as a living, viable sport'?

Which venues do you think might lay sustainable claim to that?

DCN

In the US, Narragansett Park in Rhode Island and Ingleside in California - both were used annually, from 1901 in the case of Ingleside. Ingleside was used until 1911, Narragansett Park until 1919 (although the street names in the area hint at the history - Fiat Ave, Packard St, Cadillac Ave, Overland Ave). In the UK, the first venue used multiple times would be the Isle of Man from 1905 (although the Gordon Bennett Elimination Trials were also held on the island in 1904).

[fines]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Isn't there a less literal significance to the title 'the birthplace of racing' ????

Whatever the literal truth of whichever venue was the first used for 'racing' wouldn't the enduring title of 'the birthplace' infer something less ephemeral, more enduring, and plainly more significant, as in 'the place which truly established racing as a living, viable sport'?

Which venues do you think might lay sustainable claim to that?

DCN

Well said!

Opening this thread had me wondering all the time how anyone could imagine the "birthplace of racing" being anyplace else than in France. Or Paris, to be more specific.

[Stephen W]

Originally posted by dbw
gee doug.... those are some pretty big words for us colonials..[i had to ask my wife,a phd, about "ephemeral'] but for enduring and significant how 'bout indianapolis motor speedway...pretty much in constant use from 1909 thru 2007.....

..i do however like to throw a "diaphanous" or "verisimilitude" into a conversation when it gets boring...or perhaps a good "defenestration" at a silicon valley cocktail party.

Shelsley Walsh has been in constant use, with the exception of the war years, from 1905 to the present day.

Personally I would have thought the BIRTHPLACE would have been the first purpose built track rather than either a section of public road or a horse racing track.

[Ray Bell]

Surely that would depend on how the powers that be saw the racing on the road circuits in question at that time...

At Phillip Island, for instance, the first place that non-oval racing was run repeatedly in Australia, the local authorities used the promotion of the racing to extend and popularise their holiday resorts. It therefore had plenty of backing from that quarter and lasted from 1928 to the war years.

The same could be said of Bathurst, with the difference that the road was built for the purpose of racing while still retaining its status as a public road. That commenced in 1938 and its use today exceeds that of any other time in its long history.

Road circuits can, in fact, be more enduring that purpose built circuits. Someone pointed out to me back in the seventies that ten years was about the lifespan of a circuit in Australia. That figure would have swollen somewhat by now, but we've still seen a number of circuits go down in that time while a few fresh ones have arisen. Throughout it all, however, Bathurst remains.

John Medley's book, of course, is subtitled Cradle of Australian Motor Racing... not the birthplace, but something close.

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by RA Historian
Hmmmmm......and all along the American popular press has been telling us that racing was invented at Daytona Beach by Bill France

Tom we must not be catching the same sources, as I've never heard that claim, let alone all along.

I know of the "Birthplace of Speed" claim for Daytona Beach, yes...but that was referring to the LSR attempts, and considering that alone, is a pretty good claim. I've never heard anyone claim Bill France initiated the LSR attempts (which is good since it was before he was born).

I've heard/read that Bill France Sr. started Stock Car racing, or started it at Daytona Beach, which are just as spurious claims.

ESPN and Fox (and previously NBC) have to be ignored because they are partners and as such, in the promotion business instead of the reality business. Besides, ESPN routinely tosses history and statistical fact aside to further embellish and enhance the image of their two favorites.

And I do recall how at one point in the late 70's/early 80's, sports and general media would label almost NASCAR race as an "Indy Car" race and how more recently all racing is now "NASCAR". For example, did you know that David Letterman and Paul Newman have NASCAR teams?...ahh, progress.

[RA Historian]

Hi Jim,
I think that you missed my tongue in cheek point. I was merely poking some fun (and frustration) at the all nascar all the time focus of US newspaper coverage of racing and how they have blindly swallowed the nascar pr spin on things.
Tom :

[HDonaldCapps]

Tom's point is well taken. It does get a bit frustrating when the coverage almost completely about one series, with most of that poorly done done, only adding to the problem.

I have to laugh at Tom's reference to Daytona Beach and the "invention of racing" by Bill France. I have come to the conclusion that there are those who seem to believe this, at least in some form or fashion. These are probably from the same group who have problems fathoming that once upon a time that outside baseball and boxing, professional sports in America in general lay far down the list when it came to sports being followed. Most have problems realizing just how recent, relatively speaking, the National Football League juggernaut truly is.

Using Doug's suggestion as guidance, the American pivot point for automobile racing is the Indianapolis Motor Speedway. While Narragansett Park, Ingleside, and Long Island may have led the way, day-in and day-out, for years upon years, the IMS is the place that by far most Americans and others know about when it comes to racing. Daytona Beach, through the early gatherings at Ormond Beach, and then the beach events which preceded the building of the speedway is the place that pops into mind for American stock car racing -- it was probably Darlington for a long while, Life writes in pencil -- and American road racing is usually associated with Watkins Glen.

I continue to be amazed at the overall poor quality of coverage given American racing in general, but it often seems that NASCAR gets those who are moving from the metro or style beat and doing penance by being assigned to the lowest items on sports beat, which would include NASCAR. Poor writing does not get any better when it is inflicted on an audience on a newspaper web paper.

An afterthought: NASCAR PR spin often seems to derive from the same sorts who would try to convince us that Barry Bonds never, ever used or touched a performance-enhancing drug in his life, that his overnight transformation was due to his changing his workout routine...

[fines]

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
Life writes in pencil

Nice wording!

[Stephen W]

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
Using Doug's suggestion as guidance, the American pivot point for automobile racing is the Indianapolis Motor Speedway. While Narragansett Park, Ingleside, and Long Island may have led the way, day-in and day-out, for years upon years, the IMS is the place that by far most Americans and others know about when it comes to racing.

Likewise in Britain the pivot point was surely the construction of Brooklands which saw racing from 1907 right up to the start of the Second World War in 1939.

[ensign14]

If we take "birthplace" as being metaphorical rather than literal, it has to be Le Mans. Simply because Shelsley Walsh and Brooklands and so on were dead ends. No more global impact. The first Grand Prix, on a defined track, led to so much more. And of course is still being used. If there were a Pete Frame family tree for motor racing this is probably the last common ancestor of GPs, sports cars, touring cars and stock cars. There's things like Ardennes and so on but without the Grand Prix they would have been seen possibly as dead ends, in the same way as the town-to-town races were.

Even Indy probably would only count as the birthplace of American racing...as Indy is Indy, it is very self-contained, it practically swallowed up the AAA series and so on...it wasn't influential on the world outside the States, except when Johnny Foreigner decided to taste the prize money.

[fines]

Originally posted by ensign14
And of course is still being used.

Sorry ens, but the Le Mans of 1906 has nothing to do with the Le Mans we still know today! That was used as a Grand Prix circuit in 1921, hardly the time of racing's birth...

I'll stick with my version: France, Paris, Porte Maillot!

[ensign14]

I know, but it's close enough.

[Doug Nye]

Well there's racing and there is Racing. So I'm more or less with Michael - certainly Paris, effectively the AC de France and its immediate forebears, and somewhere around the Place de la Concorde... Dammit.

DCN

[Vitesse2]

Hang on a mo .... dbw's original question was very specific: apart from horseless carriage reliability runs,where and when did man and machine get together in a group on a dedicated circuit and go at it?

Porte Maillot and Place de la Concorde have b****r all to do with circuits. So, ignoring the velodromes, horse tracks and hills, the first "dedicated circuit" surely has to be the one used for the 1900 Circuit du Sud-Ouest and 1901 GP de Pau? Having said that, they only did one lap, so if you don't count that then you have to go forward to Darren's Isle of Man nomination.

[D-Type]

Once upon a time two young bloods in their new Daimler Mercedes cars met on a bouleverd somewhere in France and had an impromptu race. Thus the European version of Motor Sport was born. It evolved into a form of competition for rich young men and car manufacturers and later specialist racing car makers.

On the other side of the Atlantic a similar event happened when two young owners of the new fangled 'gas buggies' decided tohave a race down the high street and one form of the US version of Motor Sport was born. This evolved into a form of competion for rich youngmen, car manufacturers and later specialist car makers.

In parallel with these events, on both sides of the Atlantic newspapers, holiday resorts and other towns promoted races, reliability trials and demonstrations of horseless carriages to promote circulation or to attract tourism. This attracted the aformentioned young sportsmen as it gave them somewhere to race.

In parallel with this, certain US entrepreneurs promoted a circus of 'daredevil drivers' in the new-fangled machines. To make a buck or three they had to charge admission so they ran their races on horse race tracks. Remember that in the US they generally race horses on dirt while in Europe they race on grass. Thus was born American professional Motor Racing.

All these streams and other similar meandered their own ways, occasionally meeting up and merging, and then splitting again until we reached the varied Motor Racing scene we have today - some professional, some amateur, all expensive. In most branches of the sport the older fans feel that things aren't like they were and wallow in nostalgia or try and capture the history, while the youngsters continue to enjoy the thrills and the spectacle.

A river has many potential sources and people advocate 'their' source as being the main one. Motor racing is no different.

Having said all that, I'll follow messrs fines and Nye and vote for 'somewhere in Paris'


Edit: I wrote this without seeing Vitesse's counter argument.

[fines]

... which doesn't hold water, imho.

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Hang on a mo .... dbw's original question was very specific: apart from horseless carriage reliability runs,where and when did man and machine get together in a group on a dedicated circuit and go at it?

Porte Maillot and Place de la Concorde have b****r all to do with circuits. So, ignoring the velodromes, horse tracks and hills, the first "dedicated circuit" surely has to be the one used for the 1900 Circuit du Sud-Ouest and 1901 GP de Pau? Having said that, they only did one lap, so if you don't count that then you have to go forward to Darren's Isle of Man nomination.

Richard, to paraphrase "circuits have b****r all to do with The birthplace of racing"!!!

[Ray Bell]

Well... as Speedy points out, the original question does mention a 'dedicated circuit'...

But does this mean a circuit specifically built for racing? Or could it embrace roads closed for the duration of the event, hence 'dedicated' for that race?

I think so...

[Catalina Park]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
The same could be said of Bathurst, with the difference that the road was built for the purpose of racing while still retaining its status as a public road. That commenced in 1938 and its use today exceeds that of any other time in its long history.

How much of Bathurst was purpose built and how much existed prior to the scenic drive being built?

[ensign14]

Originally posted by fines
Richard, to paraphrase "circuits have b****r all to do with The birthplace of racing"!!!

What is a race?

Is a hillclimb a race? A rally? They're certainly time trials of one sort or another. Does that make them "races"? Are the early days' timed starts "races" really "races"? Or the Mille Miglia? All those events are car v journey, rather than car v car, it's just whoever finishes the journey first wins, rather than the first across the line.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Catalina Park
How much of Bathurst was purpose built and how much existed prior to the scenic drive being built?

The bit that matters... from Tomlins Bend (top of Mountain Straight) to the top of Conrod Straight...

But as can be seen in John's book, the balance of it was in need of construction anyway... or at least a major part of the rest. I assume that Pit Straight was in fair shape at the time.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by D-Type A river has many potential sources and people advocate 'their' source as being the main one. [/B]

The Nile is a river in Egypt...sounds like you are in denial

[fines]

Originally posted by ensign14

What is a race?

Is a hillclimb a race? A rally? They're certainly time trials of one sort or another. Does that make them "races"? Are the early days' timed starts "races" really "races"? Or the Mille Miglia? All those events are car v journey, rather than car v car, it's just whoever finishes the journey first wins, rather than the first across the line.

So "Paris - Bordeaux" or "Paris - Berlin" etc. weren't really races? If so, I'll rest my case. But in my opinion, dbw's original question was flawed: if you're looking for "the birtplace of circuit racing", then pose the correct question. Otherwise, forget about circuits when looking for the origins.

[ensign14]

Yeah, I agree with that.

[Jim Thurman]

Originally posted by RA Historian
Hi Jim,
I think that you missed my tongue in cheek point. I was merely poking some fun (and frustration) at the all nascar all the time focus of US newspaper coverage of racing and how they have blindly swallowed the nascar pr spin on things.
Tom :

Tom, they don't need the help with things they haven't said or written, they're bad enough on their own

Tom's post and Don's excellent follow-up prompt me to take that part of the discussion to a new thread, on U.S. media coverage of racing past and present. And please attempt to include the Brits in the discussion ;)

[dbw]

gee...didn't think the question was all that flawed....guys in machines racing each other on a surface dedicated to be used for guys racing each other in machines...the idea that a track may have only lasted one or two events was not my idea but seems a good one...so i'll rephrase the question

has any purpose-built race track for motor vehicles built earlier than 1909 still exist today doing basically the same job ?....[ref indianapolis motor speedway]


BTW i really didn't know the history of indy prior to this thread...as a two time bugatti owner i was into euro stuff...we cheered jack and that stewart lad at indy...i drove a real mini in high school....