28 replies to this topic

[dooly]

Frank Williams:

"Regarding Juan, it was obvious to many people, including myself and Patrick -- Patrick Head, my partner -- that in Formula 3000 he was very gifted. We just felt we would continue to make every effort to secure him; and that has happened.

Regrettably, I want to state, at Jenson Button's expense. And Jenson is going to be another great driver. We're very sad he's had to go elsewhere for a period of time. But we had already made an unspoken commitment to Juan and we didn't intend to back out of it because suddenly it was inconvenient. "

=================================

After Jenson's great rookie year, lots of people questioned BMW-Williams' sanity for letting go of Button (however temporarily) in favour of Montoya. So that's the reason - they have too much integrity, honesty and pride to go back on their word... Afterall, contracts have been broken before, and Montoya didn't even have a written one, so they're just all-round good guys!!;)

Presuming it was because of a verbal commitment they'd given to Montoya, based on Jenson's good results and Montoya's 'gift' what do you think they would have done if that verbal commitment to Montoya had never been made?

I think they would still have gone for Montoya.

[arcwulf7]

I think Jenson has had a good rookie season, but not spectacular. No one, except his manager and his British fans, are talking of him as the next Schumacher or Senna, or even Mansell for that matter. The hype for Montoya has been equally overdone, but this arrangement has been in the works for a couple of years. It backs up Williams contention that the racing experience you can get from CART, in a period limited enough that your skills aren't totally defined by the Champ Cars, is an excellent way to develop drivers for f1. I tend to think he might be right. If he is, Jenson is not going to back at Williams, period.

[Max Torque]

It's not like ALL contracts get shreaded when something changes. Still, a contract is a contract.

From what went down during this year, it is clear now, that Button was never meant to stay for 2001. If Sir Frank had (at the slightest) NOT made up his mind from the beginning, then Button (with such performance) would've stayed for sure.

It's just that Button's pace surprised everyone and made FW look like a jerk. Button was to ride the Williams for a year, score 1 point at best, and then be given to another team to see how he develops. The fact that he proved from day one that he is ready to stand remarkably on the track was a possibility that FW and his staff never calculated.

Now they are left exposed.

[arcwulf7]

Ralph has scored 24 points to Jenson's 10 in the same cars. Both Fichichella and Villeneurve in markedly inferior equipment have out scored him at 18 and 11 respectively. For a driver the in the number 3 team in the current ranks, that's a good performance, but not exceptional. Despite his reassurances to his British fan base Frank has broken contracts before (in terms of buying them out). He has never been shy about dicarding drivers when he thinks he's found someone else who provides better value. Make no doubt, If Button had impressed Williams as much as everybody thinks he should have, he would still be there. The bottom line is Montoya is going to Williams because Sir Frank thinks he's quicker.

[Max Torque]

Villeneuve's (WDC!) Honda powered machine is inferior to the BMW??!!!!
Fisichella's 18 points existed at the same time with Ralph's 12 (circa Canada) !!!!!!

Also, Button is a damn rookie, no experience, no knowledge, even, of most tracks AND was surely going to be given away at the end of the season!!!

Reexamine the facts Arc7.

[dooly]

Originally posted by arcwulf7
The bottom line is Montoya is going to Williams because Sir Frank thinks he's quicker.

Yeah, I think the verbal contract excuse is just to justify why they are 'getting rid of' an obviously talented rookie, and also maybe to make it look a bit better for Jenson and themselves. As we all know, and as already been pointed out, Frank's not scared to turf anyone out and would have kept Jenson if he really wanted to, and an 'inconveniece' is not going to stop FW from doing what he wants to do.

If Montoya succeeds, then great - if not, it was all because of that damn pesky verbal agreement!

[arcwulf7]

Williams BMW is the number 3 package in F1 now, and seems to be distancing themselves from others for this rank. BAR in not only behind Williams but Jordan as well. It is Villeneuve's driving that is making it look faster than it is. Their package really isn't clicking, although i expect they'll get things together next year. And i don't think i'm disagreeing he's a promising driver, Max. Benetton will be a good test for his ability to develop that promise. Its a little less demanding than Williams, who really prefer experienced, older drivers. Although Jordan is in decline, Bennetton will be charging next season as Renault. Just how well Montoya does is going to be the talk of the season. If he disappoints, and only if he disappoints, will FW look the fool.

[Davebo]

Originally posted by Max Torque
Villeneuve's (WDC!) Honda powered machine is inferior to the BMW??!!!!

Come on now - we're not talking about dragsters here!

That BAR chassis has come along way since the beginning of the season, but it was nowhere near as good as the Williams at the start of the season.

Maybe FW should 'pull a Penske' and run three cars - he's got loads of driver talent available.

[Max Torque]

Arc7, you may be right, but look at it from another point of view: Last year If Williams had this year's Button, they would easily be the No.3 team also. Ralf, as it seems, will score less points this year than last.
If this year's Button was there last year, we would be talking about that team already, even though it was Supertec powered.
My point is that Button is the one that makes the BMW Williams team look good. Not Ralf. If there was a pointless Zanardi in his place today, then the team wouldn't seem so hot. It would've scored less points than the previous year, but due to the downfall of Jordan and Jaguar (Stewart) would probably finish third too.
Third isn't such an incredible feat this year.
Button's standings are.[p][Edited by Max Torque on 09-23-2000]

[Max Torque]

Davebo, I also mentioned that Villeneuve is a former World Champion. That should tell you something when trying to compare him to rookie Button!

[Ali_G]

Its like this Dooly.

A lot of people were questioning Frank Williams senses when he left Montoya go to the USA in the first place.

Montoya is an accomplished driver in everything that he has driven in so far. Techniclly he is a better driver than Button.

Anyway Button will be back at Williams for 2004

Niall

[dooly]

Originally posted by Ali_G
A lot of people were questioning Frank Williams senses when he left Montoya go to the USA in the first place.

Frank said it was very close between Monotya and Ralf - and Ralf won because of his 2 years of experience. So, I guess in that case they chose the guy most experienced in F1 racing.

I'm not arguing that Button should be kept over Montoya. I don't support either driver. I was just making fun of them saying they took on Montoya because they had a verbal agreement and wouldn't reneg just because of an inconvenience. They obviously wanted Montoya - just come out and say it!

[arcwulf7]

Team ranks are relative (not to mention somewhat subjective) things. Jordan's and Stewart's fall has been to Williams's benefit, but i think it's just that Willaims has finally managed to put a post Newey team in place. A major factor in the points this year is that Ferrari and McLaren are even more dominant than they were last year. Zanardi for a number reasons never fit into the Williams organization or car. I personally think he was more probably more talented than his performance showed, but Williams started pushing a completely new driving style on to him, instead of allowing him to get into his own rhythm. That is something Montoya will have to deal with as well. Button being so young was certainly more malleable to the demanding Williams ethos. But Button did not 'make the team look good'. A more experienced driver would probably have gotten a lot more out of the car. Put Villeneuve in the Willlams and he'd probably be nudging Barichello for 4th place.

[Max Torque]

Indeed.
But what I was saying (perhaps I got too confusing there) is that Ralf's performance in 99 was better than 00 overall. More points. Better podium placing. He even posted fastest lap.

Last year's car was at least as good as this year's if you measure it by the only constant factor -Ralf (Everything else changed). But weaker competition and greater support from the no2 driver gives the impression that this year's package is an improvement of 99's effort.
If you see it from the point of view that I describe, that's wrong.[p][Edited by Max Torque on 09-23-2000]

[AD]

If we look at qualifying JB is always around 0.5s away from RS, except for around 1 race in 6. I just can't imagine JPM being this far away from Ralf next season. I really think that he is the best talent to come into F1 since a certain Micheal Schumacher. And how many decisions has Frank got wrong? Easily, much less than anyone else.

[Will]

Originally posted by AD
If we look at qualifying JB is always around 0.5s away from RS, except for around 1 race in 6.

Jenson has outqualified Ralf 4 times in 14 races, that's 1 in 3.5 races.

[DangerMouse]

"but Williams started pushing a completely new driving style on to him, instead of allowing him to get into his own rhythm. "

Arcwulf what are you talking about? - Williams even when to the absurd extreme of giving Zanardi steel brake discs in a bid to make him comfortable with the car - unheard of!
Williams bend over backward to accommodate Zanardi - he failed to deliver.

Zanardi failed because he could not drive a modern F1 car, Herbert blew him away at Lotus and Ralf blew him away at Williams - AZ is simply not good enough for F1.

Button has been very unlucky with reliability compared to Ralf, he has dropped out of the race whilst in the points at least twice (possibly three times) due to bad reliability, and once for driver error same as Ralf.
So the difference in points between them is more than just driver ability.

As for Button having a Ok season - he has out-qualified and qualified alongside Michael Schumacher in an inferior car - do you not consider that to be amazing? Button is an outstanding driver. He has driven cars for just TWO YEARS before arriving in F1 - think about it.

I honestly believe Montoya will struggle in F1, he will be gifted a beautifully handling car (the Williams is just getting better and better) but I still believe he will try and overdrive and will ultimately prove he is a good all-round driver - nothing exceptional. His pace in the European formulas proved he is nothing special - he never did the amazing giant killing drives Button managed in FFord or in F3 when he was driving a markedly inferior car, winning on power circuits with the duff Mugen behind him is unheard of in modern Brit F3 - Button did it more than once.

[arcwulf7]

Williams is famous for coaching, or really imposing driving styles and setups on their drivers. Even Villeneuve was at loggerheads with the Head and the technical staff for his unconventional settings. He got away with it because he was able to perform immediately in the very capable 1996 Williams. Among other thing Zanardi was required to do left foot braking, a huge change for an experienced driver to undertake. Zanardi was plagued by mechanical failures in the first part of the season. Once those were settled he managed a 4th place, outqualifying Ralf in one of the midseason races. If he could do that once, only consistent equipment and lack of encouragement from the team prevented a repeat. That brake fiasco thing completely mystified me, but i seriously think it had to do with Williams overanalyzing Zanardi's braking style, and trying some technical compensations. Some times i wonder if they had decided early on Zanardi wasn't their boy and were throwing weird, fragile equipment at him to test. Williams drivers know they have a narrow window in which to perform, that Patrick and Sir Frank have no patience for 'learning curves' and that they will always shake things up after a couple years anyway, just to freshen up the operation. I happen to agree with Frank Williams here. I want to see JPM in Formula one, and i want to see how he performs against Ralf. That will provide a benchmark as to just how good he, and Button are.

[Caractacus]

I think that it must be said that, if we are to accept that Zanardi's outqualifying of Ralf once was in any way promising or demonstrative of talent, why can we not accept the same of Button in HIS first year?

Button's debut is not as fantastic as some would like to think, true, but he has avoided a lot of the embarassments of, say, Ralf's first year whilst still driving competitively and getting results. I tip Ralf as a future WDC (given the right equipment, naturally) and I like to think that Button has similar promise, though he'll need another year to learn various tricks of the trade - such as anticipating slowing of the pack before a restart...;)

Additionally, I'm really hoping that Montoya won't suffer from Zanardi syndrome as it might well be another nail in the coffin of American interest in F1. Should be a good year, should 2001!

[arcwulf7]

Well i think i did say something like that. In fact promising was the word i used. I guess my point is there are a lot of factors that come into evaluating a driver's performance. A lot of those related to development and communicating with the technical staff are not visible on the track. Where as it is not fair to assess Button's full potential based on rookie year performance, overestimated OR understimated, the same is true for Zanardi. Maybe he just wasn't F1 material, but his experience at Williams really seemed like he playing on a tilted pitch. That said Williams is a tough outfit, and just being able to survive, and in fact prosper, is definitely an indication that we should keep an eye on Button's progress.

[Will]

Well now Button has outqualified Ralf 5 in 15, 1 in 3

1. 3 M.SCHUMACHER Ferrari 1'14"266 203.350 Km/h
2. 2 COULTHARD McLaren Mercedes 1'14"392 + 0'00"126
3. 1 HAKKINEN McLaren Mercedes 1'14"428 + 0'00"162
4. 4 BARRICHELLO Ferrari 1'14"600 + 0'00"334
5. 6 TRULLI Jordan Mugen-Honda 1'15"006 + 0'00"740
6. 10 BUTTON Williams BMW 1'15"017 + 0'00"751
7. 5 FRENTZEN Jordan Mugen-Honda 1'15"067 + 0'00"801
8. 22 VILLENEUVE BAR Honda 1'15"317 + 0'01"051
9. 16 DINIZ Sauber Petronas 1'15"418 + 0'01"152
10. 9 R.SCHUMACHER Williams BMW 1'15"484 + 0'01"218
11. 12 WURZ Benetton Supertec 1'15"762 + 0'01"496
12. 23 ZONTA BAR Honda 1'15"784 + 0'01"518
13. 19 VERSTAPPEN Arrows Supertec 1'15"808 + 0'01"542
14. 17 SALO Sauber Petronas 1'15"881 + 0'01"615
15. 11 FISICHELLA Benetton Supertec 1'15"907 + 0'01"641
16. 15 HEIDFELD Prost Peugeot 1'16"060 + 0'01"794
17. 7 IRVINE Jaguar Ford 1'16"098 + 0'01"832
18. 18 DE LA ROSA Arrows Supertec 1'16"143 + 0'01"877
19. 8 HERBERT Jaguar Ford 1'16"225 + 0'01"959
20. 14 ALESI Prost Peugeot 1'16"471 + 0'02"205
21. 21 MAZZACANE Minardi Fondmetal 1'16"809 + 0'02"543
22. 20 GENE Minardi Fondmetal 1'17"161 + 0'02"895

[Sudsbouy]

I support Williams wanting to get JPM into their car. He's a really special talent who has spent his years in CART rounding out his skills. I believe he will be pushing RS sooner, rather than later.

JB has proven to be a real find this year. If we compare his first year to RS', JB come off looking very good. He's suffered more mechanicals than RS. In addition, there was one race where Williams sacrificed his race results to induce another team to pit early so RS could profit from the resulting open track. If Benetton gets their package together next year, he will some definite improvement.

Thank you.

[JayWay]

Arcwulf,

There may be some truth to that, but in the end a good and self confident driver will take control. There was some animosity between JV and Patric Head because Head disagreed with much of JV's setup's and preferences, but by the end of 97, Head had been proven wrong and gained alot of respect for JV, because JV knew what he wanted and didn't let anyone get in his way or tell him what to do. If a driver allows himself to get bullied in that sense and doesn't have the skill or guts to fight back and take control of a situation then thats his problem. Motorsports can not always been ideal in the situations dealt.

[arcwulf7]

Yes, well that is a key to making it at Williams. If you're strong enough not to let them bully you AND if what you choose WORKS (because ultimately they will give you enough rope to hang yourself) then you've got it made it in the shade. AND that sais a lot about Villeneuve, Button, Zanardi, Montoya and Williams.

[mhferrari]

Let's wait until 2001.

[george baird]

So they can dump Ralf when his contract is up paving the way for Button and Montoya in a winning car.

[DangerMouse]

arcwulf7, Newey designs have a small window of where the aerodynamics work, every time JV strayed the car went backwards, yes, in the end they forced JV to used the base setups (Hills) from the previous year - you don't throw away setups from a driver widely regarded as the best development driver of his era lightly, similarly when DC was at Williams every weekend he strayed from the base setups the car slowed he reverted back to Hills setups and flew.

Left foot braking's the norm in F1 because it is the quicker way round - Hill was forced to switch to left foot braking when he went to Jordan - he still won a race, driver talent is driver talent and a talented driver can adapt - even a (over the Hill) Damon adapted to left foot braking.


Caractacus, Yes Zanardi often qualified well against Ralf, but to say we can't use that as ammunition to say Button is good because AZ did well is stupid, give Button 2 years in F1 then two years in CART and then plonk him next to Ralf and *then* you've got a level playing ground as far as showcasing talent.

Three years ago Jenson was driving Go-Carts he has never even been in F3000 as he went straight from F3 to F1 (the only ever driver to do that successfully was Senna.) To gain command of an F1 car so quickly despite only having roughly 50 car races under your belt is stunning.

[ehiwario]

Originally posted by Davebo
Maybe FW should 'pull a Penske' and run three cars - he's got loads of driver talent available.

the rules state that each consturctor must enter two cars, no more, no less

[bear]

I don't know how well he will do in F1 but he is the one of the bravest Oval drivers I have ever seen.