37 replies to this topic

[David Kipling]

Having seen the thread that included a brave man's oval-track car ---- Here's a pit photo I took at the Skagit Speedway in Washington State about 20 years ago. The "stagger"of this (locked) rear axle is the most extreme I have seen; turning right AT ALL would be difficult.

http://www.oldstox.c...ges/stagger.jpg

But no better Saturday night spectacle exists, floodlit on this 3/10 mile banked clay oval, damp clay dust raining down on the spectators and millions of mosquitoes burning in the floodlights! (Not as bad as Le Mans, do I hear someone say?)

Cheers from Canada

[Peter Leversedge]

David Even better still is being behind the wheel of a sprintcar on a Sat night. I ran my cars on 1/4 mile tracks and ran a lot of "stagger", lots early and less later in the show as the track dried out

[David Kipling]

I envy and admire you. The Andrettis and Unsers often insist that oval dirt tracks taught them the sweet science of "listening" to what a car was telling them. I've heard it said that Steve Kinser and Sammy Swindell could sniff the air at 7:30 and say that by 10:30 before the "A" Main, they should drop the outside right rear pressure by "X" psi ---- .

I'm way too old to race, but one day I'll pay for a few exploratory solo laps.

[Jim Thurman]

That appears to be a Modified in the photo. The tail is a giveaway, and other than looking at the engine, turning it upside down or crawling underneath, the only way to tell by the 1980's. Fairly typical stagger for the era. I remember what a good view of the stagger I had at Placerville (California) Speedway in 1985. Being a 1/4 mile with tight radius turns, it offered the best grandstand view I've ever seen of stagger.

Thanks for the photo link David

I'm farther South, so the mosquitoes places in the lights was taken by moths, gnats and (dependent on location) agricultural related bugs , but I concur that there is no better Saturday night spectacle. I always greatly enjoyed the Modifieds in California, though they often seem to get no love from either Sprint Car or Stock Car fans and usually were replaced by Sprint Cars.

[Buford]

We had no money so owned nothing to adjust. We owned 4 wheels and borrowed two others so our stagger was what it was. Well one or the other. We would park next to guys who would lay out 20 shocks on the trailer and argue with each other which ones to use. We would look at the 4 we had, already on the car and say. "Think we should use those?" We got our wing off the top of a trash can. It wasn't hardly bent up at all... much.

Most tracks and most nights with no way to adjust anything and a rookie driver, a candy ass road racer to boot, we fought to make the feature at all and get up to 15th. But there were a few times when the track came to us where we could run with... everybody. Well almost. We had the engine, just not the chassis. Ten years old and cross spring front. With the piece of crap I had to drive, our best finish. a 6th in a World of Outlaws feature with everybody there, was pretty much of an achievement at a time when the big boys were spending $250,000 and we spent $17,000 total.

You have never really known intimidation if you have never shown up for the first time and had Steve Kinser, Swindell, Hewett etc walk over and watch you unload your trailer, arms crossed, just glaring at you and your pathetic little operation. Not saying anything. Just glaring at you. Then walk away saying nothing. It was a tough world to get into. And flipping all by yourself the first race after the checkered flag is not a good start.

Some day if you're interested I'll tell you how you know when you have finally arrived. How they tell you that you have earned their respect. How they tell you that they no longer fear you are gonna kill yourself and take them with you. How they tell you that you are now one of the boys. Any guesses?

[barrykm]

Originally posted by Buford

Some day if you're interested I'll tell you how you know when you have finally arrived. How they tell you that you have earned their respect. How they tell you that they no longer fear you are gonna kill yourself and take them with you. How they tell you that you are now one of the boys. Any guesses?

I'm interested, and I'm sure I'm not the only one, pray tell....

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by barrykm
I'm interested, and I'm sure I'm not the only one, pray tell....

"a 6th in a World of Outlaws feature with everybody there" is enough for me Buford T

[bpratt]

That appears to be a Modified in the photo. The tail is a giveaway, and other than looking at the engine, turning it upside down or crawling underneath, the only way to tell by the 1980's.

I'd agree with Jim. Sort of looks like the Ed Evans super modified of the mid-1980s. Could be wrong there. The super modifieds could be described as the original class at Skagit that evolved from the 1930s coupes and sedans when the track opened in the 1950s.

They then became "limited sprints" and now the "360 sprints".

I miss those square back cars. Some interesting looking machines.

[Buford]

OK how did you know in the late 1970s and early 1980s that despite the fact that you had blasphemous USAC, SCCA, Midwestern Council of Sports Car Clubs. and IMSA patches all over your driving suit and tow vehicles, and as a pretty boy road racer you had the audacity to show up at the premiere Sprint car races in the land with a piece of crap 10-year-old car, that despite all that you were now accepted as a real World of Outlaws Sprint car driver? Which therefore also meant undisputedly a real racecar driver in anybody's definition? This was a world where drivers were a dime a dozen. After a crash where the driver was taken off to the hospital, the next week you would see there was another driver in that now repaired car. You would go up and ask the crew "How is that guy who got hurt" and it they would say "I don't know, in the hospital I guess. We got another driver."

So in this ultimate most alpha male and cutthroat of all endeavor worlds, how did you know when you were one of the boys? How did you know they no longer considered you a threat? No not a threat to beat them. They knew you weren't that. But that they now accepted you to the extent they no longer believed that you were a threat to kill them through your own incompetence. How did they tell you that they had run with you enough now that they no longer felt it necessary to leave you a wide berth? That they now felt confident enough to put you in a ridiculously dangerous position and have enough confidence in your ability that you wouldn't lose control, because of the awful thing they did to you, and take them with you when you had your massive crash? Well that was part of it right there. When they started running up close to me and pushing me around. When they would make a dangerous outside pass with the confidence I wouldn't be startled and spin into them and put them into the wall. When they would slide job me and cut across my nose with inches to spare and be confident enough I wouldn't hit them even though they deserved it. Stuff like that. But there was one night I knew for sure. Steve Kinser told me he accepted me and if "the King" accepted you it meant everybody else did too.

Now don't get me wrong, he didn't actually speak to me. He never did a single time. He always totally ignored me except for that very first night when he glared at me. And so did all the other big boys. They totally ignored me. They didn't yell at me, they didn't lecture me, and they didn't (fortunately) tell me to get the hell out of there. They ignored me. In a way that was a form of acceptance because they didn't assemble carrying torches and throw my ass out. So anyway I after awhile began to feel accepted because they ignored me and tried to run over me and treated me on the track like a real driver. One that they could push around because he was driving a piece of crap but they knew it would be different if he had anything worthwhile to drive. However there was one night I was sure I had arrived. That I was now officially accepted and one of the boys.

It was after the races and I had walked over to the pay window to get my $75 check or something whatever it was. Barely enough to pay for gas and I was walking across the dark pit area (paddock area for you hand kissing road racers) and I suddenly walked into the light. From the darkness I emerged into the brightly lit area where the winner that night, as usual Steve Kinser, was surrounded by autograph seekers and photo takers and adoring fans. He probably had 25 or so immediately surrounding him and another 50 mingling in the general area. As I walked near his entourage I stopped for a moment to look at him. As I did that he happened to look up and see me. Instead of looking away "the King" looked at me for a few moments and he maintained eye contact. Suddenly a half smile came on his face and he gave me a nod.

That was it. A half smile and a nod from Steve Kinser!!! You might say “Oh so what” but no you would be wrong to discount the importance of that that. What he was telling me in nonverbal communication was "You did good. You are driving a piece of crap but you are doing that well. You are welcome here in our world.” I responded with a half smile and a nod and walked on. That was the night I felt I had accomplished what I had set out to do when first climbed into a racecar at the age of seven. The top driver in the most dangerous and one of the most difficult forms of auto racing on planet Earth had acknowledged I was a real driver with a half smile and a nod. I was the real thing. I would rather have won the feature and had a check bigger than $75, but that was pretty good.

[Lotus23]

Buford, that's one of the best pieces you've ever written!

Kudos, my friend.

[JacnGille]

I still say there needs to be a book by Buford.

[Buford]

the title would be

"How To Have a Head Start On A Racing Career On Everybody In Your Generation And Still Fail Miserably."

[barrykm]

Thanks Buford, that was from the heart..to achieve in that tough environment...well done

[Frank S]

I'd say ol' Buford deserves a half-smile and nod from the top writers in one of the toughest arenas on the planet, too.

--
Frank S

[eldougo]

As I walked near his entourage I stopped for a moment to look at him. As I did that he happened to look up and see me. Instead of looking away "the King" looked at me for a few moments and he maintained eye contact. Suddenly a half smile came on his face and he gave me a nod.


Ooo to be in such company,well done Buford.

[Catalina Park]

Thanks Buford.

[Buford]

Thank Steve Kinser he made the story.

[DOHC]

But your story is the stuff that real stories are made from. Thanks Buford!

[Dave Ware]

the title would be

"How To Have a Head Start On A Racing Career On Everybody In Your Generation And Still Fail Miserably." [QUOTE]

You still got a hell of a lot closer that most, if not all, of the people here.


Dave

[Lotus23]

Head start? Perhaps. But no more than many other boomers had.

Fail miserably? No way, Jose! You got to turn a wheel in anger, and so did I. But to have given it your best shot, as we both did, and end up somewhere below the stop step of the pyramid certainly doesn't count as "failure" in my book.

I wish I had Teddy Roosevelt's "Man in the Arena" quote closer to hand, but I think you know the gist of it: that it's far, far better to have gotten down in the mud, blood and beer of the arena, and given it your best shot, than to be sitting up among the naysayers who've never even tried at all.

[Lotus23]

"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat."

Theodore Roosevelt
Paris 1910

[Buford]

Well maybe, but I have never gotten beyond the frustration that I am fully convinced I had the talent to run Indy and never got a chance. Of course every driver thinks that I know. I mean my lifelong desire to race at Indy when it meant something, not the fiasco it has become under that idiot Tony George. He has devalued it so much due to his greed and stupidity that now it almost seems idiotic to say you once gave up everything else in life trying to make it to Indy. People these days say you didn't want to race NASCAR?

Many people I raced wheel to wheel with did make it to Indy. Some on talent, some through drug running. Well let's just say more got there on money than did on talent. But anyway I'm quite convinced I could have done at least as well as Lyn St. James. Every deal that was close fell through. Not that I'm the only one, there were hundreds of others during the same time period who were in the same boat.

These days I now have become the person that I always worst feared someday becoming. I never wanted to be old and living in the past. Which is why I don't talk about it much. Roosevelt's message is stirring but doesn't help. There is no glory in failing for whatever reason. I didn't race to fail. Am I bitter about it? I used to say no, I had a good run. These days I think the answer is yes.

[David Kipling]

Without digging through my heap of old OPEN WHEEL magazines to get every word right, my memory of an article and a letter that express the spirit of the old days:

A guy wrote in saying how his 12-year old son had asked to go to the Sprint races (which the father had never seen), nag nag nag until the guy took him, "but I was worried that this rough world was not the kind of atmosphere and moral climate for my son to be exposed to." So they went a few times, and one night in the pits they were getting an autograph from a top-line driver. This guy asked why that driver was there at the small track, since there was a big-paying race elsewhere in California that same night,. The driver replied "Yes, I know, but I booked in here a long time ago, and you can't break your word, can you?" The guy quickly looked at his son, who was listening intently to the driver, and said in his letter "I realized that this was EXACTLY the world I wanted my son to know."

An article about legendary "Tummy" Hinnerschitz was written by a guy who had hung around the tracks at the age of (coincidentally) about 12. He worshipped Tommy H, and at the end of one night offered to carry Hinnerschitz's toolbox out to the trailer which was outside the track, not in the infield. Tough wiry grim-faced Tommy said "Sure kid", and the guy remembers how it almost pulled his arms off, and his feet kept sticking in the clay, and spots appeared before his eyes and his ears were roaring. Somehow he held up that toolbox all the way to Hinnerschitz's trailer, and then Tommy grabbed it with one hand and hoisted it over the side without an effort. Then the tough guy looked down at him and said "I want you to tell your daddy from me that you did a good day's work today."

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Buford
.....Many people I raced wheel to wheel with did make it to Indy. Some on talent, some through drug running. Well let's just say more got there on money than did on talent. But anyway I'm quite convinced I could have done at least as well as Lyn St. James. Every deal that was close fell through. Not that I'm the only one, there were hundreds of others during the same time period who were in the same boat.

These days I now have become the person that I always worst feared someday becoming. I never wanted to be old and living in the past.....

Life is what it is. Just write the book!

[Lotus23]

Guys, we've all lived long enough to know that life is not always fair; in fact, sometimes it's damned unfair. But that's just the way it is.

I think that many times we're acutely aware of the unfair breaks, and maybe not so aware of the times the breaks fell in our favor. The fact that we're still breathing and able to participate in this forum indicates to me that we all have had our fair share of the favorable breaks.

Buford, 45 years ago my big dream was the same as yours - to qualify for Indy. Not to win, but just to be among the 33 who took the green flag. And, like yourself, I ran against guys who, for whatever reason, made it there. In fact, one was Rookie of The Year. But that was pretty much the peak of his pyramid, and nowadays few have ever heard of him.

But I don't feel badly about it; I gave it my best shot and that was it. Had I achieved that dream, I might well have died a long time ago.

Who knows?

Ray's right: life is what it is.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Lotus23
.....Ray's right: life is what it is.

Ray's also right that Buford should 'write the book'...

Not only his book, I reckon Buford should become a regular writer. He does good stuff... no, that's not right. He does great stuff, and apart from his many memories I'm sure there are other subjects he could write about for fun and profit.

[Buford]

I wouldn't be able to do it if it wasn't about my interests. How about a spanking, bondage, and diaper play?

[fines]

Seriously, Buford, you are one hell of a raconteur, that Steve Kinser story is simply outstanding! BUT if you decide to write a book, please please please don't ever mention Tony George! For whatever reasons, your hatred of the man is such that it simply clouds your judgement and diminishes much of whatever you say.;) And no, I certainly don't want to discuss this again!

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by Buford
How about a spanking, bondage, and diaper play?

That could work...say in a modern F1 setting

[Buford]

Originally posted by fines


Seriously, Buford, you are one hell of a raconteur, that Steve Kinser story is simply outstanding! BUT if you decide to write a book, please please please don't ever mention Tony George! For whatever reasons, your hatred of the man is such that it simply clouds your judgement and diminishes much of whatever you say.;) And no, I certainly don't want to discuss this again!

I absolutely do hate the man who due to greed and stupidity and drug abuse started the war that destroyed the American open wheel sport and dishonored everyone who ever died trying to qualify for the Indianapolis 500 on merit by opening up the starting lineup to back room deals and selling guaranteed starting positions to the likes of Racin Gardner's daddy. I personally knew three men who died there trying to qualify and one who spent the remainder of his life nearly fully paralyzed. For me it's very personal. My friends who paid the ultimate sacrifice trying to qualify for the worlds greatest race on merit, not sneak in the back door because of cronyism and deals made in smoke-filled rooms with the idiot grandson pulling a power grab.

I and the majority of racing fans who existed for Indy car racing in 1995 have never forgiven him and never will. The vast majority have totally left the sport as far as buying tickets and watching on TV or have switched to NASCAR. If that's clouded judgment then I'm very happy to have it. Never forgive the man who destroyed it all. However I'm glad some of you enjoyed my little short story. That is a far cry from writing a book and it would be a book that about 11 people would want to read. There is no money in racing books. It has to be a labor of love and frankly even from the beginning when I was attending so many funerals as a child, I have always hated racing nearly as much as I loved it. These days I think the pendulum has switched more towards the hate side than it ever has before. There might have been a certain amount of chic in my younger days when I was a angry young man, but when you get to the age I am now there is nothing cool about being a bitter old man. And I think I have crossed the line into that.

[Ray Bell]

You can't be old... you're younger than me!

There might not be a book, but I think there would be. There would certainly be a host of worthwhile stories, viable and profitable for you. Just do it!

[Jim Thurman]

Buford, with all due respect...get over yerself!

I am much more of a glass half-empty guy myself (which comes from personal experiences), but you got that far...much farther than not only most of us, but farther than so many others that tried.

While there are a lot of bitter former drivers, a lot of guys that only made a single F1, Indy or NASCAR start look back and think how cool it was to have even done that.

I would have loved to have been able to find a legal way to have been able to race. My goals weren't to race at Indy or Daytona (well other than maybe briefly as a 14 year old), but to race at local tracks or do some laps at Riverside. All but one of the places I wanted to race are gone now.

As a teenager, I was involved in a sport that under 10,000 people were doing, something that has since grown a lot. I'm not happy about underachieving, even though it was through reasons beyond my control, but I look back fondly at what I did do.

I realize that's not much consolation, but try to look at it that way.

Yes, say, thank you Dr. Phil

[Buford]

This is why I don't talk about it much. It always comes out as the bitter ramblings of a washed up old man. As I said my situation was not unique. There were hundreds just like me at the time and thousands since who didn't get where they wanted to go. Who had more talent than money. Since then I have gone on to do many things that people would say was leading an exciting and at times productive life. I have no regrets overall.

But in past years I tried to think of it as "I had a good run" but I no longer do. Flogging around for nearly two decades in garbage cars on every kind of track and series going nowhere no longer seems as cool to me as it did 30 years ago. I always kind of reveled in the danger and the insanity of it all, but the wisdom of age as convinced me now what a fool I was. I have taken down all the racing pictures from the walls etc. I have far more bad memories of the racing world than I have good ones. Also I have a case of survivor's guilt that so many I knew didn't live through it and wonder why I did. I also wonder why I don't care more than I do that I did.

[Dave Ware]

[QUOTE]Flogging around for nearly two decades in garbage cars on every kind of track and series going nowhere no longer seems as cool to me as it did 30 years ago.

If it was the right decision at the time, then it was the right decision. Regardless of how you feel about it now.

[Lemans]

Buford, I really enjoy reading your stories. They are gripping and visceral reminders of racing's exciting past. Did you know Lucky Mays, a sprint car driver from the 1940-60's? He raced all over too and he told me how dangerous the condtions were then. I am one of those open wheel fans who turn their heads away in shame when Inday rollls around since its a shadow of itself.

[Buford]

No I didn't know him. I was one of the few at the time who raced both road courses and ovals short of the top level. Jan Opperman was the famous "King of the Outlaws" and I wasn't known, yet I was far more of an outlaw than he was because I raced everywhere in every kind of car. All crap of course. I thought that would help get me the big ride but never did. Only made me disliked by everybody, always an outsider. To the oval racers I was a hand kissing pretty boy faggy road racer, and to the road racers I was a white trash punk ruffian oval racer. I never fit in with either group. The reason more people didn't do both is because both sides made your life totally miserable if you tried.

[Rosemayer]

Buford it seems we have mirrored lives except you went a bit farther than I did.1939 buicks on a 1/2 ditr oval to sprint car (only once never again) to a jag to a 1967 big block corvette.Now just a 60 yr.old driving a honda civic.

Cheers Rosey

[Lemans]

thanks any way Buford. I am mid-age guy who has intrests run from the dirt track sprints, and pavement cars, sports cars. Your costs ratio of $250,00 to $17,000 is not surprising. I saw Ramo Stot (sp) sun in IMCA stock cars and he was the hot shoe.
We had a paved track 2/3 mile located outside of Baton Rouge, LA bult with Teamster money and fronted by Ed Partin (the guy who testified against Jimmy Hoffa. Anyways, saw Bobby Allison's Coke car and Wendell Scott run there. The track failed due to poor promtions.