27 replies to this topic

[Sudsbouy]

I had an opportunity to watch qualifying for the first time and was struck by how little track time there was available to each driver.

Given that there is an 'out' and 'in' lap associated with each qualifying run, the twelve lap rule really limits track time. There seemed to be a lot of dead time that wasn't all that interesting. Of course, I was watching FOX Sports telecast in the USA and that may be the reason for the low content.

I would like to see each driver be allocated twenty-one laps for the qualifying session. It would give the drivers much more opportunity to tweak their settings and might increase the drama factor.

The argument that it is to cut costs, really seems lame to me when we're talking about F1. Since they're already at the track with the full complement of equipment and personnel, the incremental cost of a few more laps doesn't seem like such a big factor.

Thank you.

[Stevens24]

If you can't get it right after 3 hour of practice and twelve qualifying laps you aren't going to get it right.;)

[mhferrari]

Especially on tracks like Spa, increasing the amount would mean increasing the time of the session

[Sudsbouy]

I don't believe it's correct to speak of twelve qualifying laps as the 'out' and 'in' laps count against this total. They're really limited to just three or four qualifying attempts. I still think there was way too much dead time.

Perhaps my ideas were affected by the quality of the one qualifying session I've been able to watch (it was referred to as boring by more than one individual in other threads).

Thank you.

[T0NT0]

how about unlimited amount of laps in the one hour.....

[DangerMouse]

The reason the twelve lap rule was brought in is because two certain drivers (namely Senna and Prost) used to regularly go out on the track during qualifying after setting a quick time with the sole intention of spoiling other drivers laps, they'd cruise around causing all sorts of problems.

The restricted laps rule is the ONLY way to avoid this sort of monkey business.

[ehiwario]

you are right, if we had more laps there would be more traffic in qualifying

[Maldwyn]

Quote

Originally posted by T0NT0
how about unlimited amount of laps in the one hour.....

I agree with that. If the FIA and/or teams are concerned with cost they should look to reduce testing between races and during the off-season.

An alternative, suggested by Alex Wurz recently, is to have a "one lap showdown" Each driver has a warmup, timed and slow down lap and there is one car on the track at a time.

[arcwulf7]

I'm not sure of the specifics of the Qualifying laps but as I understand it a lap is 'completed' whenever you pass the start/finish line, whether in the pit lane or not. This means, i think, that every time you go out on the track you'll have your flying laps +1 counted. Its obviously meant to keep the congestion down on the track and force teams to make a committment to completing at least one flying lap before re entering the pits. It seems most teams try to go in groups of 3 (1 in/out, 2 flying) to maximize their fast laps, while still having light fuel and fresh tyres, unless they have a set up problem. Realistically though this means you have 8 laps to qualify. I did notice the track could have handled a lot more traffic yesterday, but we've seen other situations where the track was crowded and interfered with hot laps at other venues.

[Ali_G]

You could also have the option like in Superbikes of a SuperPole situation.

Cars would be left out one after another every 30 seconds to do 1 lap. It would turn up some interesting grids but for this to work they would have to cancel the 107 % rule.

Also if it rained it would not work.

Niall

[BrundleBud]

Actually, the main reason why the sessions tend to have 'dead' periods is that with only having 12 laps, normally none of the drivers want to go out early because there is little rubber laid on the racing line. Indy was slightly different because the teams were worried about rain and wanted to get a 'banker' lap in early in case conditions deteriorated.

Normally, the top 10 or so drivers complete 9 of their 12 laps (3 of 4 runs) in the final 25 minutes of the qualifying hour.

If they were allowed more laps to use in qualifying, the teams would also need extra sets of tyres, as they would not want to do 2 or 3 qualifying (hot) laps on the same set. I know that they have allowed an extra 2 sets for Indy, but I don't know if that will be the same for future races.

[wembi]

12 laps is already too much!

[Clatter]

As a hypothetical question. MH used his last 2 laps to aid DC, what would have happened if MH had done an outlap on his 11th lap, a fast lap on his 12th and then dumped his car on the outfield? He would have only done 12 laps so would it count?

When someone breaks down in qualifying and they run back for the spare car the dont appear to be penalised for the lap the broke down on, so why not?

[Alfisti]

I agree with the original post. They need an hr and a half and as many laps as they like... qualifying is far too much of a lottery IMHO.

[tifosi]

BrundleBud,

The two tyres were for Indy only and could only be used for practice. Personally I wish they would let them use all the tyres they wanted on Friday so the teams could do a lot more laps, then use the 7 set limit for Saturday and Sunday. Don't know how Bridgetsone would feel about this though.

Clatter,

I have wondered this myself. If you go out with two laps remaining and run your hot lap on the last lap, then either park it after turn one or continue around and have the last (13th) lap DQ'd. However since this would be only a cooling down lap, who cares if its DQ'd
My feeling is that the stewards would declare you 12th lap a final lap and disallow it as you were supposed to pit on it, not go around again. Someone more familiar with this subject have that answer?

[Clatter]

Tifosi,

If you did 13 laps then you could face total disqualification, at best your fastest time would be dis-allowed, but if you park up you have only done 12 laps therefore can you be penalised??

[tifosi]

Clatter,

I have no idea. As I hinted at I think you are required to come into your pit on the 12th lap, regardless of what happens. If you did not I believe that either you could face total DQ, or at least have your best tim erased. To simply run a 12th hot lap and park it would certainly violate the spirit of the rule anyway. Also once you cross that start/finish line you are on you 13th lap whether you park it or not. Of course technically any team that is at the far end of the pit lane starts a 13th lap since, as we all learned at Silverstone two years ago, the start/finish line extends into the pits.
I don't know for sure, but my feeling is thaton the 12th lap yoou MUST proceed to the pits.

[tifosi]

Don't know if this helps, looks like the FIA's normal murky rules:


b) Each driver is allowed a maximum of 12 laps qualifying practice. Should a driver complete more than 12 laps all times recorded by the driver will be cancelled.

This is under article 116 of the sporting regulations.

[HappyDude]

From the FIA site:

b) Each driver is allowed a maximum of 12 laps qualifying practice. Should a driver complete more than 12 laps all times recorded by the driver will be cancelled.

and:

119) If a car stops during practice it must be removed from the track as quickly as possible so that its presence does not constitute a danger or hinder other competitors. If the driver is unable to drive the car from a dangerous position, it shall be the duty of the marshals to assist him.

If any such assistance results in the car being driven or pushed back to the pits the following penalties will be imposed :

a) during a free practice session the car may not be used again in that session and, if it is used again, the driver's fastest qualifying lap time will be deleted ;

b) during the qualifying practice session the driver's fastest lap time from that session will be deleted.


Neither of the above penalties will be imposed if a driver leaves the car under the control of the technical delegate in the parc fermé.


In the event of a driving infringement during practice, the Stewards may delete any number of qualifying times from the driver concerned. In this case, a Team will not be able to appeal against the steward's decision.


120) The clerk of the course may interrupt practice as often and for as long as he thinks necessary to clear the track or to allow the recovery of a car. In the case of free practice only, the clerk of the course with the agreement of the stewards may decline to prolong the practice period after an interruption of this kind.

Furthermore if, in the opinion of the stewards, a stoppage is caused deliberately, the driver concerned may have his times from that session cancelled and may not be permitted to take part in any other practice session that day.


121) On both days of practice, all cars abandoned on the circuit during the first free practice session will be brought back to the pits prior to the start of the second and may be used in that session.

122) Should one or more sessions be thus interrupted, no protest can be accepted as to the possible effects of the interruption on the qualification of drivers admitted to start.


123) All laps covered during qualifying practice will be timed to determine the driver's position at the start in accordance with Article 129.


So I don't know exactly how they interpret this, but my guess is there are several possibilities:

A) From 119-b, if they leave their car out on the track and it has to be pushed back then they lose their fastest lap, so there would be no point in doing it since you'd lose the lap anyway.

B) There seems to be a fair amount of leeway given to the stewards to "delete any number qualifying times" with no chance of appeal if they feel the driver has deliberately done someting wrong.

C) If they complete more than 12 laps then all qualifying times are deleted. Perhaps even if you stop out on the track and get towed/pushed back in and in to the pits this counts as your 13th lap, even though you didn't drive it. You still crossed the finish line one too many times.

I'm pretty sure it's option C). Otherwise McLaren would have done it on Saturday.

[baddog]

116) Qualifying practice will take place :

a) The day before the race from 13.00 to 14.00.

b) Each driver is allowed a maximum of 12 laps qualifying practice. Should a driver complete more than 12 laps all times recorded by the driver will be cancelled.

I think this is pretty clear. 12.1 is more than 12. you have to come in ON the 12th lap and that is that. tight rule.

ouch
Shaun

[tifosi]

baddog,

I agree with you interpretation and agree that is how it would be enforced. However it is definately not tight. Any decent 2 year law student could blow major holes in this without really trying. It says if you COMPLETE more than 12 laps. 12.1 is runnng more than 12 laps but is not COMPLETEING a 13th lap. Technically if you came around and stopped a meter before the s/f line you have noit COMPLETED a 13th lap. And people wonder why I despise lawyers so much.

I do agree that in reality the regulations are enforced and understoof by the teams as you have stated. However, as we learned in Malaysia, what is stated and what a lawyer can make happen are two very different things. Their is a loophole.

[baddog]

ahh BUT.. as another lawyer might point out, you have completed 'more than 12 laps' in that you have completed 12.1 laps.. the wording does not say you must have completed an integral number of laps more than 12 etc etc etc ;)

Shaun

[tifosi]

Well I fired the guy and got me another lawyer, (now do we understand why 30% of prices are due to laywers), and he says 12.1 is still not a completed lap so you have not COMPLETED more than 12 laps. You may have ran mor ethan 12 but you did not COMPLETE any laps after number 12.



See, shakespeare was right

[MattB]

I would like to see the qualifying sessions be an hour and a half with unlimited laps per driver. The stewards of the race meeting would be responsible for monitoring unsporting behavior, such as slow running or drivers attempting to spoil each others laps. I don't want to see one car at a time in qualifying. I also don't want to see the super pole idea incorporated. Just send the cars out and let them find a clear track. They are racing drivers. It would make the race weekends more exciting.

I also agree with the silliness of the cost saving argument. This is F1, if a team needs that much financial assitance they should be in a lesser formula.

[Todd]

All they need to do is move the timing point during qualifying. If the finishline were half-way between pit out and pit in instead of being between pit in and pit out, then each qualifing attempt would only be 2 laps. That would allow 6 timed laps and therefore half of laps turned would be at speed instead of a third. That would mean 50% less trouble with slow moving traffic. Safer and better. I should be in charge of every damn thing.[p][Edited by Todd on 09-25-2000]

[JayWay]

I have a question which I thought of during USGP qualifying. I saw that Mika had two laps left but couldn't put in a hotlap. Does this mean that in order for a hotlap to be officially registered that the driver must complete a full in lap? What if the driver does not complete the in lap if he has enough laps, say he crashes?

[Clatter]

I think you'll find I asked this furthur up the thread

[JayWay]

Ehehe, sorry.