38 replies to this topic

[Lee200]

As a member of the development team for one of our "legendary" racing sims, I'm looking for expert help on the differences amongst the various 330s that Ferrari raced in 1967. We are finally making a move toward sports cars instead of focusing solely on F1.

I know that Doug looks in on occasion and would appreciate his help or anyone else's who could clear up some gaps in our understanding of this great car.

Specifically, we need to know what engine powered the nonworks 330s.

Here is what we THINK is correct:

The works Ferraris were called P4s. These cars had 4.0L, 3 valve, fuel injected engines that produced about 450 hp. Only three were ever made. Their chassis numbers were 856, 858, and 860.

Ferrari also modified and raced one of their 1966 P3s which looked almost identical to the P4 and was typically called a P3/4. The modification mainly the installation of the P4 engine. This chassis number was 846.

So the works team had four cars to race...all of which looked alike and had identical 450 hp engines.

Now for the nonworks cars...

For 1967, Ferrari sold their 1966 P3s. The original P3 cars had 4.0L, 2 valve, fuel injection engines which didn't make much less horsepower than their newer P4 counterparts. To prevent those cars from being too competitive, the nonworks P3 engines had the fuel injection removed and replaced with Weber carbs. The power output was about 420 horsepower or 30 less than the P4s.

These nonworks P3s were also known as P3/4s (!) or 412Ps which causes all sorts of confusion. Their chassis numbers were 844, 848, 850, and 854.

I'd appreciate any help you can provide.

Le

[SWB]

If you are simply asking about 0844, 0848, 0850, and 0854 then it is only 0844 and 0848 that were converted from P3 spec to 412P spec, and have the updated chassis type from 593 (P3) to 604 (412P).

The other two cars 0850 and 0854 started out in life as 412P's with chassis type 604. These two were never ex works cars and were sold directly to Ecurie Francorchamps and Marenello Concessionaires respectively.

The engine in all these cars was the 241 type engine with two valves per cylinder (P4 had three) and with six Weber 42 DCN carbs.

You may want to note that the P3/412P bodywork, while looking stylistically similar was different in many ways and not interchangable with the P4.

Regarding 0846 (Daytona winner), this was converted to P4 spec by the factory and is the lone Barchetta of the P4 engined cars.

Hope this helps.

[Lee200]

Thank you SWB,

Your post confirms the research I've done so far.

The final piece of puzzle we're missing is the horsepower difference between the two engine variants. I show that the 412P cars used the 2 valve, Weber carb engines which produced approximately 420 horsepower. The works fuel injected version of 1966 supposedly produced 420 horsepower so the Weber carb version may have actually produced even less.

The P4s used the newer 3 valve, fuel injected engines which produced approximately 450 hp.

Lee

[SWB]

My research says the P3 had 420bhp at 8200rpm. The P3/412 410bhp at 8200. The P4 450bhp at 8000.

On the basis that Ferrai 'always' had the most powerful engines (according to Enzo), and that all 1960's dyno's lied like a cheap watch, you 'could' take the figures with a pinch of salt. Except that they are probably the right sort of ratio per car.

What I can't find are the all important torque figures which may close the overall performance for each car around a circuit (per bhp), or spread the overall performance? At le Mans in 67 a well pedalled 412 out qualifies all but one P4. And at Le Mans the weights are #19 (P4) 0860 984kg, #20 (P4) 0846 972kg, #21 (P4)0858 982kg, #24 (P4) 0856 976kg, #22 (P3/4) 0848 1001kg, #23 (P3/4) 0854 1002kg, and #25 (P3/4) 0844 997kg. So you can see the P4's were a bit lighter as well.

[Lee200]

Originally posted by SWB
My research says the P3 had 420bhp at 8200rpm. The P3/412 410bhp at 8200. The P4 450bhp at 8000.

On the basis that Ferrai 'always' had the most powerful engines (according to Enzo), and that all 1960's dyno's lied like a cheap watch, you 'could' take the figures with a pinch of salt. Except that they are probably the right sort of ratio per car.

What I can't find are the all important torque figures which may close the overall performance for each car around a circuit (per bhp), or spread the overall performance? At le Mans in 67 a well pedalled 412 out qualifies all but one P4. And at Le Mans the weights are #19 (P4) 0860 984kg, #20 (P4) 0846 972kg, #21 (P4)0858 982kg, #24 (P4) 0856 976kg, #22 (P3/4) 0848 1001kg, #23 (P3/4) 0854 1002kg, and #25 (P3/4) 0844 997kg. So you can see the P4's were a bit lighter as well.

Thanks SWB,

Yes, it makes sense that the Weber carb version should produce slightly less horsepower that the fuel injected version so your 410 hp for the 412P sounds about right. We are trying to decide whether to include the separate 412P engine. That 40 horsepower difference certainly votes toward doing so.

We are always perplexed too by the quoted chassis weights. The scrutineering weights vary pretty widely. Makes you wonder if the scales were off.

And of course, driver ability enters into it. Rodriquez apparently was a master with the Ferrari as he did very well in qualifying even though he supposedly had an inferior machine compared to the works' cars.

Lee

[SWB]

I think some cars just came out of the factory heavier, maybe a thicker sheet of alumnium here or there seen as a good idea as work progressed. And unlike modern F1 cars which are stripped down and repainted for each race I'm sure there were a few coats of paint and filler on some of the cars by the time Le Mans came around. But from the weights you can see 0846 the Barchetta was the lightest. Also for Le Mans in particular the cars could carry a fair number of tools and spares, but I don't know if they would be scutineered with these on board.

[MKIVJ6]

Originally posted by SWB
If you are simply asking about 0844, 0848, 0850, and 0854 then it is only 0844 and 0848 that were converted from P3 spec to 412P spec, and have the updated chassis type from 593 (P3) to 604 (412P).

The other two cars 0850 and 0854 started out in life as 412P's with chassis type 604. These two were never ex works cars and were sold directly to Ecurie Francorchamps and Marenello Concessionaires respectively.

The engine in all these cars was the 241 type engine with two valves per cylinder (P4 had three) and with six Weber 42 DCN carbs.

You may want to note that the P3/412P bodywork, while looking stylistically similar was different in many ways and not interchangable with the P4.

Regarding 0846 (Daytona winner), this was converted to P4 spec by the factory and is the lone Barchetta of the P4 engined cars.

Hope this helps.

Nope.

0844/0846/0848/0850/0854 chassis were built at the same time in 1966. They have P 3 chassis (593) which are different than P4 (603) chassis. The P3 wheelbase is 2412mm. The P4 wheelbase is 2400mm. The chassis differ in other ways including motor mounts and angle of water tubes that mate to the engines.

0846's chassis was modified in Dec. 66 to a P 3/4 chassis. It's wheelbase was shortened 12mm and P4 motor mounts were added. 0846 is the only P 3/4.

P3's 0844/0848 were converted into 412P's in 1967.
412P wheelbase is the same as P3 wheelbase 2412mm.


0844 was later converted into a 330 Can Am and recently back to a 412P
0850 and 0854 were built into full cars in 1967 as 412P's.
0856/0858/0860 were built in 1967 as P4's with among other things P4 (603) chassis.
0858/0860 were converted into 350 Can Am's and 0860 was converted back to a "350" P4.


Best

[Doug Nye]

Lee200 - if you are modelling contemporary performance and wish to do so accurately you should be aware of relevant gearboxes used, and also relevant tyres fitted. Are you?

DCN

[MKIVJ6]

Here's one I helped with:

[Lee200]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Lee200 - if you are modelling contemporary performance and wish to do so accurately you should be aware of relevant gearboxes used, and also relevant tyres fitted. Are you?

DCN

Hi Doug and thanks for your comment.

Yes. As you know, those of us on the development team try to be as faithful to the real world as possible. This dedication to realism has kept the old girl going for almost 10 years now...an eternity in the computer world. I think a major reason for this is that there is a devoted group of followers throughout the world who were young men during the 1960s that find that era's racing to be best ever. Not that we are getting old, but many of us are grandfathers now.

As an aside, I personally appreciate your work over the years. In the real world, I drive a Porsche and have enjoyed your books and also your interview in the Porsche Victory By Design video.

As to modeling, yes we have the capability to model the transmissions. We can adjust the number of gears, gear ratios, friction loss, and to a certain extent the reliability. Tire development has always been a bit of a witchcraft, but recent breakthroughs had allowed us to model better the overall grip level, slip angle and ratio sensitivity, pressure and temperature, load transfer, etc. Each mod has advanced our understanding of tire physics, but it is a complicated subject even in the real world and especially difficult to simulate.

The latest mod will attempt to simulate the 1967 World Sports Car Championship. This is our first attempt at a closed wheel simulation which brings new challenges to the table.

I would appreciate any help you could provide. We are currently in the process of identifying the livery of each of the prototype cars including the Porsche 910 at each of the championship races. Your books on the Ferrari and Chaparral are especially helpful.

Lee

[Doug Nye]

Blimey - differently detailed liveries for each race then?

DCN

[Lee200]

Originally posted by MKIVJ6


Nope.

0844/0846/0848/0850/0854 chassis were built at the same time in 1966. They have P 3 chassis (593) which are different than P4 (603) chassis. The P3 wheelbase is 2412mm. The P4 wheelbase is 2400mm. The chassis differ in other ways including motor mounts and angle of water tubes that mate to the engines.

0846's chassis was modified in Dec. 66 to a P 3/4 chassis. It's wheelbase was shortened 12mm and P4 motor mounts were added. 0846 is the only P 3/4.

P3's 0844/0848 were converted into 412P's in 1967.
412P wheelbase is the same as P3 wheelbase 2412mm.


0844 was later converted into a 330 Can Am and recently back to a 412P
0850 and 0854 were built into full cars in 1967 as 412P's.
0856/0858/0860 were built in 1967 as P4's with among other things P4 (603) chassis.
0858/0860 were converted into 350 Can Am's and 0860 was converted back to a "350" P4.


Best

Thanks MkIVJ6. That's good information.

Lee

[Lee200]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Blimey - differently detailed liveries for each race then?

DCN

Absolutely!

That's easy for me to say as I'm not the one making them, but yes that is the intent.

I must admit that we are only modeling the prototypes for now plus the 910. Still, that's 9 or 10 chassis/engine combinations for the player to drive. We are also limited to having no more than 19 AI cars for offline racing. The AI limitation only becomes a factor at LeMans where we won't enough space for all the prototypes.

Looking at the historical record, there were typically around 15 prototypes per race and there were 8 championship races so that's over 100 skins that will need to be designed.

Lee

[MKIVJ6]

I have a complete set of scruteneering documents for Le Mans 66 and 67 plus massive factory records of the MK-IV's especially chassis J6 and will try to answer any questions I can.

I also have a lot of the records for 0846 and 0854.

Best

[Lee200]

Originally posted by MKIVJ6
I have a complete set of scruteneering documents for Le Mans 66 and 67 plus massive factory records of the MK-IV's especially chassis J6 and will try to answer any questions I can.

I also have a lot of the records for 0846 and 0854.

Best

Wonderful!

Thanks for your offer. Let me get with the other members of our physics group and determine what data we're lacking. We are definitely modeling the MkI, II, and IV along with the Ferrari 330 P4, Chaparral 2D, Chaparral 2F, Mirage Mk1, Lola T70, and Porsche 910.

I know the Porsche 910 didn't race in the same class as the others, but it did win the Targa and Nurburgring and made Porsche a contender for the overall championship.

Lee

[SWB]

Nope.

0844/0846/0848/0850/0854 chassis were built at the same time in 1966. They have P 3 chassis (593) which are different than P4 (603) chassis. The P3 wheelbase is 2412mm. The P4 wheelbase is 2400mm. The chassis differ in other ways including motor mounts and angle of water tubes that mate to the engines.

OK, I'm going number blind with all these chassis numbers, which bit does 'Nope' refer to? It seems to me you just contradicted me then rehashed the same information?

But 0850 and 0854 never raced or turned a wheel as P3's. They were based on spare P3's chassis, but came out of the factory as 412P's.

[Odseybod]

Originally posted by Lee200



Looking at the historical record, there were typically around 15 prototypes per race and there were 8 championship races so that's over 100 skins that will need to be designed.

Lee

Sounds wonderful. Don't forget the tartan upholstery for Stewart's P4 at the BOAC race at Brands

[MKIVJ6]

Originally posted by SWB


OK, I'm going number blind with all these chassis numbers, which bit does 'Nope' refer to? It seems to me you just contradicted me then rehashed the same information?

But 0850 and 0854 never raced or turned a wheel as P3's. They were based on spare P3's chassis, but came out of the factory as 412P's.

I was referring to the chassis (Frames). You are correct as to how 0850 and 0854 were built up, directly into 412P's in 67 as opposed to 0844/0846/0848 which were originally built as P3's and converted to 412P, P 3/4, 412P in 67 but all were built on P3 593 chassis. 0846's chassis was the only chassis that was modified, (Wheel base shortened, P4 engine mounts added, angle of chassis water tubes that mate with the newly added P4 engine changed) the P3 chassis of 0844/0848/0850/0854 were not. The longer P3 wheel base is one reason that the tail body work is different. P3 tails can clear the rear tire when lifted even though the bottom side edge is in line with the bottom door shut line because they have a longer wheelbase. P4's with their shortened wheelbase need to have the tail stepped up at the bottom side edge to clear the rear tire when lifted because of their shortened wheelbase. (0846's P 3 modified chassis also has modifications to allow a P 4 tail to be fitted but still retain it's P3 tail side bottom alignment with it's bottom door shut line even with it's shortened wheelbase. It's Hinge/Rollover midsection hoop is also shortened by 12mm vs the 412P's) Unlike the P4's P 3/4 0846 retained it's P3 nose as did the 412P's.

"Regarding 0846 (Daytona winner), this was converted to P4 spec by the factory and is the lone Barchetta of the P4 engined cars."

P4's 0854/0858/0860 became Barchetta's for their last Factory race at Brands Hatch as well and 0846 was converted to P 3/4 spec not P4 spec. (P3 Modified Chassis/P3 nose/P3 side tail bottom line/P4 uprights and brakes/etc./etc...)

Best

[Lee200]

SWG and JMB,

Do you have Excel? I can post a spreadsheet with the data we "know" and that we are using to model the cars. We also need engine torque/horsepower information. We have the the torque/horsepower curves for the Porsche 2.2L 910 and the Ford MkII, but we certainly need that data for the other cars if available.

If you don't have Excel, then the major pieces of information we need are the vehicle weights and engine data. I believe we have pretty good information on the basic stuff...wheelbase, length, width, height, etc. As expected, weight and torque/horsepower are the big items. Center of Gravity it important too. I've got some of the 1966 LeMans scrutineering data for a few of the cars. This was courtesy of Doug via a magazine article (BTW Doug, your math was definitely better than the scrutineers). But we're definitely missing these pieces for the 1967 MkIV among others.

Lee

[Lee200]

Originally posted by Odseybod


Sounds wonderful. Don't forget the tartan upholstery for Stewart's P4 at the BOAC race at Brands

I'll let the cockpit makers know.

Lee

[Doug Nye]

I doubt the JYS comment should be taken too seriously, Lee. Only one bloke you should talk to - 'P4Replica' - Paul Skett. He's forgotten more about P3s/P4s in detail than most will ever know...and he holds the photos to prove it.

DCN

[Lee200]

Just to whet everyone's appetite, here's a screenshot of some of the liveries that have already been done. These are still in the development stage so there may be some minor errors, but it should give you an idea of what is in store.

Lee

[Lee200]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
I doubt the JYS comment should be taken too seriously, Lee. Only one bloke you should talk to - 'P4Replica' - Paul Skett. He's forgotten more about P3s/P4s in detail than most will ever know...and he holds the photos to prove it.

DCN

Yes, I thought JYS's comment was tongue in cheek. I don't think the seats are modeled, but the cockpit certainly is.

I believe we have some good data now on the differences between the various 330s raced in 1967. We will definitely model the P4. From a sim standpoint, the 846 P3/4 was so similar to the P4 that it will be treated as a P4.

If P4Replica is listening, we definitely could use more information on the 330 engines... the torque or horsepower curve is really what we need; however, our chief cam grinder can usually produce a decent curve based on only a few data points. The more information the better obviously.

Thanks,

Lee

[Odseybod]

'Scuse me, chaps, but the tartan uopholstery comment was in all seriousness - and true. I was there, noticed it in the Paddock and thought it was a nice touch to make JYS feel at home - can't vouch for its being the correct Stewart tatran, though. Just wish I'd taken a pic of it at the time (how often do we think that?!).

[Lee200]

Originally posted by Odseybod
'Scuse me, chaps, but the tartan uopholstery comment was in all seriousness - and true. I was there, noticed it in the Paddock and thought it was a nice touch to make JYS feel at home - can't vouch for its being the correct Stewart tatran, though. Just wish I'd taken a pic of it at the time (how often do we think that?!).

Sorry Tony, didn't realize you were serious.

Don't know about the seats, but we definitely model the correct driver helmets so JYS will be there in all his glory at Brand Hatch.

Lee

[P4Replica]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
I doubt the JYS comment should be taken too seriously, Lee. Only one bloke you should talk to - 'P4Replica' - Paul Skett. He's forgotten more about P3s/P4s in detail than most will ever know...and he holds the photos to prove it.

You really do flatter too much, Doug - you'll get me into trouble !!

Originally posted by Odseybod
'Scuse me, chaps, but the tartan uopholstery comment was in all seriousness - and true. I was there, noticed it in the Paddock and thought it was a nice touch to make JYS feel at home - can't vouch for its being the correct Stewart tatran, though. Just wish I'd taken a pic of it at the time (how often do we think that?!).

Are you absolutely sure, Tony ?
Or are you possibly confusing the 'tartan upholstery' with JYS's tartan helmet band (or even another completely different car such as the Merc 300SLR or W196) ? I've certainly heard any mention made of this before. I will admit though, that I don't seem to have a clear (overhead) photo of #0860's interior at Brands, on file either.

However I do have this image which I'd right-clicked and saved from elsewhere on the 'Net.



In this photo, looking through the windshield you can just see the (normal) red 'leatherette' stitched ribs of the 'standard' seat back. Seems unlikely, to me, that the car would have had a different (tartan) separate 'bum pad' for JYS. Perhaps it was a tartan cushion that he was given, to compensate for the difference in height, between himself and co-driver CAA.

[P4Replica]

Originally posted by Lee200
From a sim standpoint, the 846 P3/4 was so similar to the P4 that it will be treated as a P4.

Lee, I hate to disillusion you, but there are 'world' of detail differences in bodywork between P3/4 spyder #0846 and the 'pukka' P4 spyders #0856; #0858 and #0860 as they appeared at Brands in July '67 - as no doubt Jim G. will be at pains to point out. If you're going to ignore this basic fact 'for SIM purposes', I really don't see why you are striving for other such technical details.

By the way, I had an email from 'C'One' a few feeks back, asking some very similar questions.
I presume he's part of your SIM design group. Sorry - but I simply haven't had the time to reply to him.

This was attached to C'One's email:



I suspect this draft is meant to represent #0846's Daytona N° 23 winning livery.
C'mon guys - you'll have to do better than this - at least 'chop the top off' fer Chris'sake !!

[MKIVJ6]

Paul

Do you think the extra weight of the sand that surely lodged in 0846 from it's pre Daytona testing sessions has to be taken into account?



Best!

[Odseybod]

Originally posted by P4Replica
You really do flatter too much, Doug - you'll get me into trouble !! Are you absolutely sure, Tony ?
Or are you possibly confusing the 'tartan upholstery' with JYS's tartan helmet band (or even another completely different car such as the Merc 300SLR or W196) ? I've certainly heard any mention made of this before. I will admit though, that I don't seem to have a clear (overhead) photo of #0860's interior at Brands, on file either.

However I do have this image which I'd right-clicked and saved from elsewhere on the 'Net.



In this photo, looking through the windshield you can just see the (normal) red 'leatherette' stitched ribs of the 'standard' seat back. Seems unlikely, to me, that the car would have had a different (tartan) separate 'bum pad' for JYS. Perhaps it was a tartan cushion that he was given, to compensate for the difference in height, between himself and co-driver CAA.

Well, 99.999999% certain I was a big fan of JYS at the time (still am) and had fallen in love with the P4 at that year's Le Mans Test Days, so the combination of the two seemed pretty perfect. And I think the tatan upholstery was on the seat back, not just the cushion, though couldn't lean too far over the cockpit as the drooling would have made it uninhabitable....

Perhaps it was a detachable booster seat for the wee lad, though I don't recall Cris Amon being that much bigger.

Much looking forward tothe Sim, anyway, whatever tthe upholstery colouring.

[Lee200]

Originally posted by P4Replica
Lee, I hate to disillusion you, but there are 'world' of detail differences in bodywork between P3/4 spyder #0846 and the 'pukka' P4 spyders #0856; #0858 and #0860 as they appeared at Brands in July '67 - as no doubt Jim G. will be at pains to point out. If you're going to ignore this basic fact 'for SIM purposes', I really don't see why you are striving for other such technical details.

By the way, I had an email from 'C'One' a few feeks back, asking some very similar questions.
I presume he's part of your SIM design group. Sorry - but I simply haven't had the time to reply to him.

This was attached to C'One's email:



I suspect this draft is meant to represent #0846's Daytona N° 23 winning livery.
C'mon guys - you'll have to do better than this - at least 'chop the top off' fer Chris'sake !!

P4Replica,

We can certainly try to include the detail differences in bodywork as we are going to make separate skins for each car and race. Hopefully you or Jim G. can enlighten us on what the differences are.

From a sim standpoint, there are some good reasons for not including every small detail although we try to do so. From a graphics standpoint, the car must be modeled in 3D which involves creating thousands of tiny triangles which define the car's shape. The more triangles, the more faithful and accurate the display; however, this comes at the expense of computer processing time. So it is a tradeoff of better resolution versus better frames per second.

Besides the graphics are the physics. Remember that we are working on a ten-year old simulation. Although generally considered to have the best physics ever devised for a computer sim, the program has it's limitations. To some extent, these limitations have been overcome, but some have not. The physics engine does need to know the basic chassis and engine characteristics such weight, cg, Cd, torque/hp, among several others. So that is why we are so aggressive about finding the correct real world specifications if possible.

I don't know 'C'One by that name. We have a small circle of developers so we generally know each other through correspondence over several years. Perhaps he is working on a different sim.

Yes, #23 at Daytona was a spyder and we definitely have the top chopped off.

Lee

[Lee200]

P4Replica/Paul,

Do you or anyone have the P4 engine specs? We have very little data other than it produced about 450 hp at 8000 rpm and 320 lbsft of torque at 6000 rpm.

Thanks,

Lee

[P4Replica]

Originally posted by Lee200
I don't know 'C'One by that name. We have a small circle of developers so we generally know each other through correspondence over several years. Perhaps he is working on a different sim.

C'One is his handle on FerrariChat, and how he signs his emails, or sometimes just 'C'.
I can't remember his real name, just that he was a young Irish chap living in France (with a French girlfriend).

Suggest you check him out, and pool resources, possibly.
This is his ID on FerrariChat: http://ferrarichat.c...ber.php?u=12728

.... and a typical example of one of his posts / threads: http://ferrarichat.c...ead.php?t=57542

Below is part of the email he forwarded to me - from a 'Dave' (which I hadn't yet replied to) :

Our physics guru has these questions.:

"In theory we need a great deal of info. In practice some/much of this info isn't available and a best guess has to be made.

In an ideal world we would need

front and rear track and wheelbase dimensions
drawings of the suspension
spring rates or wheel rates
data on ride height, camber, caster and toe
weight and weight distribution at known condition (e.g. no fuel or driver, or full fuel and driver etc.)
Fuel capacity and tank location
torque curve, or figures for maximum power and maximum torque. Maximum safe revs.
transmission ratios including optional ratios
drag factor and frontal area (or maximum speed)
front and rear lift/downforce
wheel and tyres sizes

data on brake sizes might be useful

drivers description of how the car drives are useful.

I appreciate that getting data on something as apparently simple as weight is much harder than you would think, and data on suspension can be almost impossible.

I've probably forgotten something important. Skidpan lateral g figures are very helpful but rare.

cheers

Dave"

[P4Replica]

Originally posted by Lee200
P4Replica/Paul,

Do you or anyone have the P4 engine specs?
We have very little data other than it produced about 450 hp at 8000 rpm and 320 lbsft of torque at 6000 rpm.

Lee, I have little more than that, other than obvious things like Bore and Stroke (77x71mm) Compression Ratio (10.5:1), etc., which no doubt DCN has already provided you with.

I really have no idea where you would get hold of Horespower / Torque graphs either.
Ferrari were hardly likely to publish them in period, and unless someone has put a real P4 on a dyno recently ....

Hang on a minute, he says, thinking ....

Suggest you might want to try contacting Tim Samways Sporting & Historic Cars / Engineering Ltd.

They look after #0844 for owner Harry Leventis (and confusingly, insist on referring to the car as a 'P3', incidentally). #0844 might 'only' be a 412P (rather than a pukka P4), but it was campaigned (vigorously) in historic racing up until last Summer, so they'll possibly be able to give you spring rates / gear ratios, everything - Plus they dyno'd their engine a few years back.

Go to their old website: http://www.sportinga...uk/indexold.htm

Click on 'Gallery' (not Dyno) and scroll down the page to: http://www.sportinga..._P3/dynop3_.htm

Suggest you give them a call: 01869-278733. If Tim isn't around, ask for Mike Hicks. He's usually most helpful.

[Lee200]

Originally posted by P4Replica
Lee, I have little more than that, other than obvious things like Bore and Stroke (77x71mm) Compression Ratio (10.5:1), etc., which no doubt DCN has already provided you with.

I really have no idea where you would get hold of Horespower / Torque graphs either.
Ferrari were hardly likely to publish them in period, and unless someone has put a real P4 on a dyno recently ....

Hang on a minute, he says, thinking ....

Suggest you might want to try contacting Tim Samways Sporting & Historic Cars / Engineering Ltd.

They look after #0844 for owner Harry Leventis (and confusingly, insist on referring to the car as a 'P3', incidentally). #0844 might 'only' be a 412P (rather than a pukka P4), but it was campaigned (vigorously) in historic racing up until last Summer, so they'll possibly be able to give you spring rates / gear ratios, everything - Plus they dyno'd their engine a few years back.

Go to their old website: http://www.sportinga...uk/indexold.htm

Click on 'Gallery' (not Dyno) and scroll down the page to: http://www.sportinga..._P3/dynop3_.htm

Suggest you give them a call: 01869-278733. If Tim isn't around, ask for Mike Hicks. He's usually most helpful.

Thanks Paul for the information. I'll see if one of our UK brethren can ring up Tim or Mike.

Yes, I'm not surprised the engine info is hard to find. We were lucky to find to find the MkII and 910 curves online.

From 'C'One's posts on the Ferrari forum, he is working on a different sim.

Thanks,

Lee

[SWB]

Originally posted by MKIVJ6


You are correct as to how 0850 and 0854 were built up, directly into 412P's in 67 as opposed to 0844/0846/0848 which were originally built as P3's and converted to 412P,

Only to happy to help out filling a gap in your knowledge. Now P4Replica has taken over I guess we are both screwed. :

[C-one]

Hi all!
The above (work in progress!) screenshot is mine,so take the paintscheme with a pinch of salt!
I am currently a member of this modgroup http://www.gtlw.co.uk/
....here's one of the reviews of what's been done to date, http://www.simhq.com...ports_115a.html

..................................................................................................
front and rear track and wheelbase dimensions
drawings of the suspension
spring rates or wheel rates
data on ride height, camber, caster and toe
weight and weight distribution at known condition (e.g. no fuel or driver, or full fuel and driver etc.)
Fuel capacity and tank location
torque curve, or figures for maximum power and maximum torque. Maximum safe revs.
transmission ratios including optional ratios
drag factor and frontal area (or maximum speed)
front and rear lift/downforce
wheel and tyres sizes

.....................................................................................................
This is indeed the "shopping list" .

Every source on the net differs,but I'm also finding that, every P car seems to differ too !

Any and all assistance with these cars specs most welcome.


Oh,and if anyone would have a photo of the underside of a P4........;)

[P4Replica]

Originally posted by SWB
Now P4Replica has taken over I guess we are both screwed. :

Taken over ? I was just trying to give my two ha'pence worth. Sorry I butted in. Over and out.

[Lee200]

Originally posted by MKIVJ6
I have a complete set of scruteneering documents for Le Mans 66 and 67 plus massive factory records of the MK-IV's especially chassis J6 and will try to answer any questions I can.

I also have a lot of the records for 0846 and 0854.

Best

JMG,

Would you post or send me the scrutineering documents for LeMans 67?

We are missing the official weights and CGs of several of the prototypes including the MkIV, Chaparral 2F, Ferrari 330, Mirage Mk1, and Lola T70, and Porsche 910 2.2L.

As you know, we can compute the CGs based on the front and rear weight distributions.

Thanks,

Lee

[C-one]

Hi all

I'm trying to get as much info as possible on these machina as possible,any and all help gratefuly recieved..

- Ride height (front/rear)
- Center of Gravity (front/rear AND heighth if possible)
- Suspension measurements. If not possible then the Roll centers will do too.
- A "default setup" of the car. Meaning various angles (camber, toe in, caster), springs, arb size etc...
- Weight (Ideally dry weight,i.e. FIA scrutineering results)
- gear ratios
- final ratio
- Differential lock (% of lock on power and coast if possible)
- any aerodynamics values or at least how the car feels at speed
- sound recordings .?

Much thanks.