56 replies to this topic

[Giraffe]

In the Les Leston Formula Ford round on 20/9/69 at Oulton Park, a monumental pile-up eliminated 9 cars, and caused a re-start. I was marshalling at Cascades that day, and just remember the sound of the start, and then silence......
The race was eventually won by Luiz Bueno in a Merlyn Mk IIA, entered by Stirling Moss. He was followed home by Colin Vandervell in another Merlyn, Dick Barker in an Alexis Mk15, and Ed Patrick in yet another Merlyn. Ken Bailey took fastest lap in an Alexis.
Now this is where I began to dig myself into a hole with Gregor Marshall; I have an overriding memory of Gerry Marshall taking part in the race, and being eliminated in the Old Hall incident, and told him as much.
However, my programme doesn't show him as an entry, but he did appear in the later saloon car race, which he won, so he was at Oulton that day and could have been a late entry. Can anyone confirm or otherwise that Gerry started that race?
Furthermore, I have a lasting image in my mind of a photo that featured the immediate aftermath of the crash in a seasonal survey of some sort; I think I've got it somewhere, but can't locate it.
Can anyone help me on the above, or put me out of my misery and allow me to claim my age as a mitigating factor in an apology to Gregor?

[Sharman]

I had not thought of Kn Bailey for for nearly 40 years. Is he still with us? He was in a 7 in my day

[Doug Nye]

Let me get the mental picture correct...

Gerry Marshall - in a Formula Ford.



DCN

[alansart]

Originally posted by Sharman
I had not thought of Kn Bailey for for nearly 40 years. Is he still with us? He was in a 7 in my day

Ken Bailey is alive and well and his son David started posting here recently.

[alansart]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Let me get the mental picture correct...

Gerry Marshall - in a Formula Ford.



DCN

I'm sure Gregor will show you the pictures

[Alan Cox]

You'll find David Bailey's posts on this thread, Sharman.
http://forums.autosp...=&pagenumber=12

[Giraffe]

Gerry campaigned the Lotus 61L (large!) that season, with not much success really. I'm just looking for someone to confirm that he did actually start that race; I sense he must have done for it to stick in my mind, but time plays tricks, (well 38 years does!) :

[962C]

Originally posted by alansart


I'm sure Gregor will show you the pictures

There are two pictures of Gerry Marshall in the Lotus 61L (L for "Large", allegedly) in "Only here for the Beer"

[Andrew Kitson]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Let me get the mental picture correct...

Gerry Marshall - in a Formula Ford.



DCN

Doug, Gregor posted some pictures of Gerry in the '61L' in this thread - see post no.30.
http://forums.autosp...244#post2998244

[Stephen W]

As I type this reply I have the programme from the event open on the desk. Gerry Marshall was not entered for the event and was not according to my contemporary notes a late entry.

The shunt involved no less than 9 car (Terry Horrocks, George Whitehead, Sid Fox, Tom Walkinshaw, Tony Needham, Brian Squires, Peter Wardle, Ricardo Archar and one K. Wilson). The first 4 home were:
1. Luiz Bueno (Merlyn); 2. Colin Vandervell (Merlyn); 3. Dick Barker (Alexis), and 4. Ed Patrick (Merlyn).

Below are some rather under-exposed shots of the event:

Above: the start and the charge to Old Hall


Above: the immediate aftermath of the crash


Above: the extinguisher in Whitehead's car goes off


Above: attempts to drag the Race Tune Brabham BT15 off the track


Above: as they still try to get Whitehead out of his striken Crossle the flag marshal sees the pack returning to the scene.

The whole incident was I believe triggered by a 'wadge' of paper hand towel that was stuffed under the front wheel of one of the cars on the front row. The paper was picked up by the tyre and not left at the scene and when flung off the tyre went back into the pack when the dominoe shunt started.

[Simon Arron]

Originally posted by Stephen W
The shunt involved no less than 9 car (Terry Horrocks, George Whitehead, Sid Fox, Tom Walkinshaw, Tony Needham, Brian Squires, Peter Wardle, Ricardo Archar and one K. Wilson).

Terrific bit of nostalgia, Steve. I love the way TNF is able to conjure fragments of the past at the drop of a hat.

I suppose K Wilson might have been Keith of that ilk - father of Justin and Stefan. If so, he was still racing FF1600 until 1974/75, when he put a wheel on the grass approaching Lodge and ran over a snake's nest... which proceeded to tear out a brake line. His Jamun's subsequent impact with the sleepers left him with serious leg injuries that put him out of work for a year and ended his racing career. He's a good bloke, although I haven't seen him around since JW shifted his focus to America.

When Justin tested for Jordan at Silverstone in late 2001, I turned up to watch and bumped into Keith at Club Corner. He was standing with the two mates who used to prepare his Jamun...

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Stephen W
As I type this reply I have the programme from the event open on the desk. Gerry Marshall was not entered for the event and was not according to my contemporary notes a late entry.

But isn't that Gerry nearest to us on the front row, going by photos on the other 69 FF thread??

[Andrew Kitson]

Originally posted by Simon Arron

I suppose K Wilson might have been Keith of that ilk - father of Justin and Stefan. He's a good bloke, although I haven't seen him around since JW shifted his focus to America.

Here is Keith with his son Stefan at Snetterton November 2006 at the Formula Palmer Audi meeting, with Alex Brundle and Jolyon Palmer and their racing Dads.

[Gregor Marshall]

Originally posted by David Beard


But isn't that Gerry nearest to us on the front row, going by photos on the other 69 FF thread??

Definitely a Lotus 61 but I can't make out the number or if it has the top of the sides removed (as per Andrew K's observation on the Formual Ford thread, L for large!!). The car is definitely the correct paint job (Dad's 61L did change several times throughout the season though) but I don't know about the colour as I have only seen black and white photos and the same goes for the helmet; right format but I don't know about the colour.

I'm sure Dad has it written in his diary too (I will check when I get home), which I know isn't gospel but it has been 99% accurate when I have checked it against Auto Week, Autosport and Motoring News from the time.

Also, the picture from the 69/70 Autocourse does look like Dad standing up and stamping on someone/thing. Maybe we'll never know!!

[Gregor Marshall]

Originally posted by Giraffe
Can anyone help me on the above, or put me out of my misery and allow me to claim my age as a mitigating factor in an apology to Gregor?

No need for apologies, it's worth being half wrong for all the differant ideas and bits of information people have posted!!

[Stephen W]

Originally posted by David Beard


But isn't that Gerry nearest to us on the front row, going by photos on the other 69 FF thread??

NO!

It is one of the two Jim Russell Racing 'works' Lotus 61 cars that were running in the race - either Mo Harness or Ian Ashley. I would hazard a guess at Crashley!

[Andrew Kitson]

I thought that too, but then again wondered why the green JRRDS colour had gone all 'blue-ish', yet the grass has kept its colour. I'd say it is Mo Harness. He had a black helmet with white peak.

[Stephen W]

Originally posted by Andrew Kitson
I thought that too, but then again wondered why the green JRRDS colour had gone all 'blue-ish', yet the grass has kept its colour. I'd say it is Mo Harness. He had a black helmet with white peak.

The film stock is Kodak and all the slides from about this time appear with a blueish tint! I eventually switched to Agfa with far better results!

[MCS]

Originally posted by Stephen W

Fascinating stuff, as ever!

But who is the gent in the suit (mid-picture) watching on, cigar in right hand?

John Webb??

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Stephen W
NO!

No need to shout, Steve.
Actually, I've saved the photo and zoomed in, and can then see that the cockpit sides are not cut away. :

[David Bailey]

Originally posted by Sharman
I had not thought of Kn Bailey for for nearly 40 years. Is he still with us? He was in a 7 in my day

sorry to be a bit slow on this one, but as has been pointed out a little earlier in the thread, dad's alive and kicking! I think you may be thinking of my grandfather (ken's father) who was also called Ken. Yes, I know it's confusing but bear with me! Ken senior did have a Lotus 7 that he built himself (to avoid paying purchase tax I've been told! Does anyone remember that?!) he shared the car with Ken junior starting in about 1961/1962 ish. Ken senior told my father that as soon as he could lap Oulton faster than he could, the car was his. THis he eventually managed to do (just under 2 mins for the full circuit, I think) and promptly then sold the car to put down as a deposit on a house as he was about to marry my mum. Grandfather Ken was not amused........

Ken junior then redeemed himself by getting back into racing with an Alexis Formula Ford.

I remember seeing some pictures and reports of this shunt at Old Hall in dad's scrap books, I'll have a delve through them next time I'm around to see him and I'll let you know of anything interesting I turn up.

[delboy59]

The entry of the day lists three drivers from the JRIRDS - Mo Harness, Ian Ashley and Dave Walker, although the latter scratched from the event as he had already won the championship. None of the other two finished in the top five! Dave Berry also pulled out of the race but he entered the next race instead, the Guards Formula 5000 race, using the same car he was going to use in the Les Leston Formula Ford contest, a Brabham BT16!
Back to Gerry though, he won the final race on the day, a round of the Redex Gold Cross Saloon Car Championship in his Vauxhall Viva ahead of a very strong field that included Graham Birrell, Tony Sugden, Ken Coffey, Geoff Wood as well as Ginger Marshall.

[Giraffe]

I started this damn thread, and very glad that I did, for all of it's revelations!

However, only Gregor can put me out of my misery; after consulting your dad's diary, did he either practice for, or start this race?

[Giraffe]

Facinating that my record of Ken Bailey's fastest lap, recorded as a 15 year old in my programme should spark off such a thread! Even Derek Lawson missed that one!

[Gregor Marshall]

Originally posted by Giraffe
I started this damn thread, and very glad that I did, for all of it's revelations!

However, only Gregor can put me out of my misery; after consulting your dad's diary, did he either practice for, or start this race?

Right, I found it and to be honest I'm not 100%. From the scribblings from the 29th August to 2nd September (why does Oulton only race on Saturdays or Monday!!) I would say he practiced at Oulton on the 29th and was 1st (I'm not sure if that was the Redex or FF though). Some televised meeting at Thruxton on the 30th was cancelled or his entry was cancelled. On the 31st he practised the Viva at Mallory. It's when we get to the 1st it gets confusing as it says "Mallory both retd". Does that mean there were two Redex heats and he retired from both? On the second it says he was 2nd in the Viva to Graham Birrell and on the 3rd August it says the Lotus 61 "Did not arrive" (that could mean any of the days above but lack of room).



What might have happened is he practiced (or qualified as we now now call it) the Lotus on the 29th and then for the race, whatever day it was, the 61 didn't turn up. I know it would have been difficult but i wonder if maybe he drove someone else's FF (if he would fit!!).

To me the picture in Autocourse looks like Dad (people forget he didn't always have a beer belly, pluss he looks the biggest person there!!) and one well-known photographer is sure the car this "person" is getting out of isn't a Lotus 61.

I really don't know now, Dad's diary has confused me more and I suppose the one person who'd be able to decipher it is a long way away now!!

Oh well, answers on a postcard people or if anyone has got an Auto Week, Autosport or maybe even Motoring News from then maybe they'll help. It does seem strange that pople have put the picture of "Dad" in Autocourse down to him and knowing Dad if he was at Mallory that weekend he'd certainly have gone to Oulton no matter what.

[fines]

Originally posted by delboy59
Dave Berry also pulled out of the race but he entered the next race instead, the Guards Formula 5000 race, using the same car he was going to use in the Les Leston Formula Ford contest, a Brabham BT16!

I know that BT16s were used in F3 as well as F2, but FFord and F5000? The same day???

[Giraffe]

Gregor, the Old Hall pile up took place on September 20th, 1969!

There is no reference to it in your dad's diary, which I would have expected due to the gravity of the incident. However, what troubles me is that the only memory I have of your dad's FF career is that day, and I'm usually quite good on detail.
There must be someone out there who took part in the race, and can confirm your dad's participation, or otherwise?
This is becoming something of a challenge.....

[Andrew Kitson]

Gregor

I think regarding the Mallory meeting, he had previously written 'Mallory Both' , meaning both cars to be raced, note it is written with a different pen. After the event he wrote 'retired'. There was one saloon race, a one day meeting, he was 2nd to Birrell when the throttle spring fell off, Gerry over revved the engine and it overheated, according to Autosport. No mention of him in the FF report so did the 61 not arrive as it was damaged at Oulton during Saturday's meeting?

The Autosport (5th Sept '69) Oulton report has no mention of the FF shunt. It reports on Gerry's win with the Viva. The FF race was won by Ken Bailey (Alexis) after a good scrap with Dick Barker, which ended with Barker hitting the Druids sleepers when his suspension collapsed.

[Andrew Kitson]

Thursday 18th it looks like testing Bassingbourn. I never knew Blydenstein used Bassingbourn, but logical I suppose as Bill's Shepreth base was a few miles away. By then I think it had closed as an active RAF base (just north of Royston). I don't have the Autosport that covers the 20th Oulton meeting.

Looking at the list of his races you sent me Gregor, you do not mention the FF race on the 20th at Oulton. I would have thought a big FF shunt he was involved in would have made an entry in his diary on the 20th, he did put his results in, looking at it. The Lotus did not arrive at Mallory (and we here have established the big shunt was on Sept 20th) so was the race at Snetterton on the 24th August his last single seater race, the car not going to Mallory as Raysbrook and Gerry had already decided to pull the pin on the FF programme, or did they do this after the Oulton shunt on the 20th (assuming he got a late entry) and he forgot or did not put it in his diary?

[Andrew Kitson]

The plot thickens - in 'Only here for the beer', Gerry says he gave up on FF when the cars infront collided at Snett on the first lap at the first corner, pushing him off. Yet his last recorded race at Snett he finished 2nd.
Could he have been thinking of the race earlier in August when he was punted off at Riches...or...possibly..wrongly mentioned Snett, but actually got involved in a shunt on the first corner at Oulton which decided to end his FF adventure?

[Phil Rainford]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gregor Marshall
[B]

Right, I found it and to be honest I'm not 100%. From the scribblings from the 29th August to 2nd September (why does Oulton only race on Saturdays or Monday!!)


Gregor

Racing was ( and probably still is ) not permitted on a Sunday at Oulton due to the close proximity of the church in Little Budworth

Kind regards

Phil

[Gregor Marshall]

Originally posted by Giraffe
Gregor, the Old Hall pile up took place on September 20th, 1969!

There is no reference to it in your dad's diary, which I would have expected due to the gravity of the incident. However, what troubles me is that the only memory I have of your dad's FF career is that day, and I'm usually quite good on detail.
There must be someone out there who took part in the race, and can confirm your dad's participation, or otherwise?
This is becoming something of a challenge.....

Well that changes things, haha!!

Dad's diary certainly isn't the be all and all as there are some bits missing but whatever is in there has been a definite when checked, so it might still have happened but how we can find out I don't know, as you say, maybe a competitor or some report from the time.

[Stephen W]

I have again double checked my programme from the 20th September and there is no mention of Gerry Marshall either driving someone else's car or as a late entry.

I suspect the Redex saloon car race was far too important for him to "risk injury" in a relatively unimportant Formula Ford race.

[Giraffe]

I agree with the facts, but Gerry never "risked injury" in any racecar!
There are too many spurious facts that indicate that he may have been in the race. As a marshal that day at Cascades, I recollect relishing the thought of seeing Gerry handle a Formula Ford, and being dissapointed when the pile-up occurred, and him not coming around.
Now I know it was a long time ago, and yes, I might have been mistaken, but nobody has yet come forward and been able to categorically confirm whether he did infact appear in this race, or not.

[Simon Arron]

Giraffe

All perfectly valid, but three key witnesses - Gerry's diary, Steve Wilkinson's annotated programme and Steve himself (with his list of all those involved in the accident) - suggest the Lotus 61L was not present.

This is pure hypothesis on my part, but is it the case that MN or Autosport had reported Gerry's possible presence in both Viva and Lotus, only for you then to be disappointed to find his name missing from the FF1600 entry list?

Occurrences of this kind were not uncommon - through circumstantial change rather than journalistic misdemeanour - and a couple stick in my mind. In 1976, there was a published rumour that Gilles Villeneuve might be lured over to take part in the Indylantic meeting at Oulton Park on October 16. Everything subsequently went quiet, of course, but his name was still the first thing I looked for upon arrival, just in case. A couple of years earlier one of the weeklies reported that Oulton might be in line to host a round of the European Touring Car Championship. "Fantastic," I thought, although more than 30 years later I'm still waiting...

Just a thought.

Regards,
Simon

[ian senior]

Originally posted by fines
I know that BT16s were used in F3 as well as F2, but FFord and F5000? The same day???

I was wondering about that too. It doesn't make sense and was it some mistake in the programme? Dave Berry's Brabham was, I think, one he had previously used as Formula 3 car. He then stuck a Lotus twin-cam engine in it to do F5000 (all kinds of nonsense was allowed to appear in the early days of F5000) and later a Rover V8.

[GeoffE]

Originally posted by Gregor Marshall

What a strange diary! Bank Holiday Monday was first Monday in August until 1971 and never (surely?) in September.

EDIT: It seems it was a Bank Holiday! Odd.

[Kpy]

Originally posted by GeoffE


What a strange diary! Bank Holiday Monday was first Monday in August until 1971 and never (surely?) in September.

EDIT: It seems it was a Bank Holiday! Odd.

From 1965, the Late Summer Holiday moved to the end of August for England, Wales & Northern Ireland, but in 1968 & 1969, the Holiday Monday occurred in September (2nd & 1st respectively).

[GeoffE]

Originally posted by Kpy


From 1965, the Late Summer Holiday moved to the end of August for England, Wales & Northern Ireland, but in 1968 & 1969, the Holiday Monday occurred in September (2nd & 1st respectively).

OK, thanks!

[delboy59]

Following on from all the previous responses, Ian Titchmarsh, in the 25/9/69 'Autosport', reports 'A combination of weird practice times producing a strange grid, litter thrown by thoughtless spectators, and some unrestrained driving resulted in a huge accident within 100 yards of the start of the Les Leston Formula Ford race. Nine cars were eliminated, including the Crossle of George Whitehead and the Merlyn of Ricardo Achcar, both of which turned over.'...He does go on, but on no occasion is Gerry mentioned in the context of this race.

Additionally, Whitehead was already the Redex Saloon Champion for the year but he was unable to compete in the race that Gerry won as he had to be taken to hospital after the FF incident, with a suspected broken arm.

BTW both Dick Barker and Ken Bailey set the new lap record in their respective Alexis cars - 1m 50s (90.36mph)

Later in his report Ian does say that 'Gerry Marshall was seeking revenge for his defeat at the hands of Graham Birrell's Escort on Bank Holiday and took the Shaw & Kilburn Viva into a which he never lost.'
I am sure that, knowing Ian's 'eye for detail', had Gerry been involved in FF, let alone a shunt, he would have included it in his copy.

With regard to the Dave Berry car, Ian states that '...after working flat-out to repair his Brabham BT16 t/c following his Snetterton shunt...'.

I hope that this clears things up...

[Stephen W]

Above: Dick Barker (Alexis Mk 15) who set joint fastest lap.


Above: Luiz Bueno (Merlyn Mk11) who won the race.

[Simon Arron]

Originally posted by Stephen W
Luiz Bueno (Merlyn Mk11) who won the race...

...and later finished 12th in the 1973 Brazilian GP, at the wheel of a Surtees TS9B.

[alansart]

Originally posted by Stephen W

I seem to remember Dick Barker hit the National Papers with a fiery crash at Crystal Palace in the F2 race in about 1970/71. The car had been rebuilt overnight after an earlier accident, possibly elsewhere, and he was absolutely knackered having been up all night. I think the pictures had him getting out of the car with his overalls on fire, but he was ok. I was there at the time but at another part of the circuit and knew nothing about it until I saw the papers the next day.

Looking at the picture, I don't think I would have liked to hit that barrier in the background. I think my Formula Ford would possibly have gone underneath it

[Simon Arron]

Originally posted by alansart
I seem to remember Dick Barker hit the National Papers with a fiery crash at Crystal Palace in the F2 race in about 1970/71.

I think it was the London Trophy meeting, May 29 1972. I believe he was attempting to race his Brabham BT28 in both the Crystal Palace F2 event and the overlapping Atlantic fixture at Brands Hatch (given that you didn't exactly require a helicopter to get from one to t'other).

IIRC, Barker was based in the Midlands somewhere (possibly Leicester). After crashing the car at Brands Hatch, he went home to fix it, returned to compete at Crystal Palace after driving overnight and then promptly stuck it in the wall again. I'm fairly sure his wallet suffered more than he did.

[Alan Cox]

Originally posted by Phil Rainford
Racing was ( and probably still is ) not permitted on a Sunday at Oulton due to the close proximity of the church in Little Budworth

Goodness me, Philip, it must be a long time since you attended an Oulton race meeting! There has been Sunday racing there for many years now, although engines cannot be fired up before 12 noon in deference to the church. The Gold Cup takes place on Sunday and Monday, and many of the larger meetings also feature Sunday racing. However, it is true that for the majority of its existence it wasn't permitted, and that would certainly include 1969.

[Phil Rainford]

Originally posted by Alan Cox

Goodness me, Philip, it must be a long time since you attended an Oulton race meeting! There has been Sunday racing there for many years now, although engines cannot be fired up before 12 noon in deference to the church. The Gold Cup takes place on Sunday and Monday, and many of the larger meetings also feature Sunday racing. However, it is true that for the majority of its existence it wasn't permitted, and that would certainly include 1969.

I do need to get out more ;)

Kind regards

Phil

[richie]

Originally posted by delboy59
The entry of the day lists three drivers from the JRIRDS - Mo Harness, Ian Ashley and Dave Walker, although the latter scratched from the event as he had already won the championship. None of the other two finished in the top five! Dave Berry also pulled out of the race but he entered the next race instead, the Guards Formula 5000 race, using the same car he was going to use in the Les Leston Formula Ford contest, a Brabham BT16!
Back to Gerry though, he won the final race on the day, a round of the Redex Gold Cross Saloon Car Championship in his Vauxhall Viva ahead of a very strong field that included Graham Birrell, Tony Sugden, Ken Coffey, Geoff Wood as well as Ginger Marshall.

Don't suppose you have any pictures of David Berry's BT16 in the F5000 race?

[Milan Fistonic]

The Motoring News report of the Oulton Park FF race does not mention Marshall.

There is an interesting comment about his race in the Viva.

"Gerry never seems to be able to compete in a motor race without something untoward occurring. This time he snapped off the gear-lever accelerating away from the start. He managed to find third and fourth gears by unfastening his seat-belts and leaning over to find the half-inch stub; any thoughts about searching for second gear were abandoned."

[Giraffe]

Having started this thread on the notion that Gerry did start this race, I am now coming around to the fact that he probably actually didn't. However, it would be nice to have final confirmation from a participant or marshal on the actual scene that day. They would have let Gerry start from the back if he had just pitched up last minute, such was his gravitas at the time!

[Stephen W]

Originally posted by Giraffe
Having started this thread on the notion that Gerry did start this race, I am now coming around to the fact that he probably actually didn't. However, it would be nice to have final confirmation from a participant or marshal on the actual scene that day. They would have let Gerry start from the back if he had just pitched up last minute, such was his gravitas at the time!

He certainly wasn't given as part of the programme alterations and I doubt anyone, even Gerry Marshall, would have been allowed to just "start from the back if he had just pitched up at the last minute". After all everyone else in the race would have had to been approached to allow this to happen. Also don't forget he was entered in the Saloon car race so there would be no last minute arrival, he was tere in the morning for practice.