32 replies to this topic

[former champ]

Just went down to the shops a bit ago and passed a copy of the latest F1 Racing mag. Not a fan at all but I flicked through it and came across an interesting article regarding Senna and McLaren. Now I had heard rumours years ago that McLaren toyed with the idea of running Lambo V12's for 1994 and that Senna had tested the MP4/8 fitted with that motor (Hakkinen tested it too according to the article) but it also went on to say that Ayrton was apparantly very keen on the idea, so much so that he may have stayed for 1994 had it gone ahead.

Now I only read bits of it very quickly and memory of this is very vague anyway as it was so long ago. Can anyone shed any light on this further, like was Senna really that impressed by the Lambo motor? Did he really consider not leaving for Williams had this deal taken place? What caused McLaren to abort the partnership and run Peugeot's instead? An interesting scenario I'd like to know more about.......particularly from Senna's side of things.

Also I know this probably classifies as Nostalgia but thought it was still rather recent to put over there. Still if the mods need to move it, so be it.

[Matt Hughes]

There's an interesting article regarding the test over at 8W .

The first public test came at Estoril during October 1993. Ayrton Senna called the engine reliable and promising. He also said: "It is very good, but it needs more power and is not very sophisticated. I am sure it could be very good for next season." Fuelling rumours of racing the engine during the running season Senna also said: "It would be very interesting to race the Lamborghini in Japan." Ron Dennis quickly denied this and said that they had no plans to race to race the Chrysler-financed V12. During these McLaren tests the V12 was always called a Chrysler V12. Back at home McLaren test-driver Mika Häkkinen ran at Silverstone 1.4s faster than with the Ford-powered car. Buoyed by the result Chrysler promised an all-new V12 engine to McLaren for 1994.

[former champ]

Cheers mate, very interesting, will read up on that.

[as65p]

Unfortunately I don't really have any more info then what you already wrote. Maybe time to browse to the old mags at home...

I too remember Senna being impressed by the V12 Lambo engine, but I really doubt that could have persuaded him to stay at McLaren. I think that rumour came from RD's side who predictably was still miffed how Senna could dare to leave his "family". IIRC Dennis once said something similar even about the Peugeot deal: if Senna had known that McLaren would have an engine manufcaturer behind them in '94 he might have stayed. I would take those statements with a grain of salt, TBH.

As to why Peugeot and not Lamborghini, there is a simple answer: money. Not that the Peugeot money did help in the end, but in all probability they presented a much larger budget to Dennis during their negotiations.

[lustigson]

I remember these stories, too. Interesting to know that McLaren teamed up with Chrysler in 1998, albeit in the form of engine partner Mercedes' parent company DaimlerChrysler. Lamborghini was sold to Audi in the same year.

[COUGAR508]

That McLaren-Lambo did have some latent potential, particularly if Senna had been at the wheel. The media coverage of the time conveyed the impression that Chrysler were waiting in the wings, waiting to take a more active role both financially and technically, should the initial tests go well....

[RS2000]

Doesn't one test by Senna (of a plain white Lamborghini-engined car?) feature briefly in the TV 6part documentary "The Team"?

[Doug Nye]

One time while Gordon Murray was involved with McLaren's Formula 1 car designs he was handed Porsche's design for a V12 'atmo' engine, the unit later adopted by Footwork (Arrows). He unfolded the drawing, then found another fold, and another. When he finally had the drawing spread out on his desk his first reaction was that it was an enlargement. It wasn't. It was actual size. Porsche's offer of the engine - whose architecture was more or less two TAG-Turbo V6s combined in tandem - was not adopted by McLaren...

DCN

[Dennis Hockenbury]

Perhaps Senna was on to something.

By 1993, the Forghieri-designed Lambo Type 3512 engine was routinely producing 730 bhp @ 14,500 with 754 bhp seen on the test bench. And without the use of pneumatic valves. The Ford Cosworth HB V8 used by McLaren that season produced 730 bhp @ 13,500 with better fuel consumption compared to the Lamborghini unit.

According to Karl Ludvigsen's "The V12 Engine", McLaren constructed a chassis painted all in white to evaluate the engine, with which Senna and Hakkinen tested at Estoril and Silverstone. Based on these tests, Lamborghini agreed on a handshake with Ron Dennis for the 1994 season. It was viewed that the Lamborghini had more developmental potential especially if it were converted to pneumatic valves, and Chrysler agreed to invest given the involvement of a top team.

Six weeks later, Dennis agreed to sign with Peugeot as they would provide money as well as engines. We know how that successful that was.....

Curious that no weights for the Type 3512 are provided, nor do I know how the power of the Lamborghini compared to the Renault RS5 V10 of the period.

One of those interesting what if's.

My thanks to Karl for the provided information.

[former champ]

Thanks for all your interesting reply's guys.

It is an interesting 'what if', sounds like it was pretty close to being a done deal for 1994. Wonder what Senna's intentions might have been had it gone ahead? Couldn't see him knocking back Williams Renault but, who knows....

[jcbc3]

I think Ron Dennis's reasoning was more along the lines of "what engine partner has the most potential down the road for us". And no matter how promising the Lamo/Chrysler was in 1994, he would have seen Peugeots success in Group C and rallying and thought that avenue the more attractive. He was of course wrong but anyone claiming they saw that coming in the end of 1993 is lying.

[Henri Greuter]

I think that another arguement could have been related with what the McLaren engineers wanted as well as personal experience by McLaren with both V10 and V12 engines.
The compromise V10 concept (compromise between V8 and V12 concepts that were known for much longer already) had worked well for McLaren-Honda, but the Honda V12's were less successful (thought the opposition got better too of course)
But I think that at McLaren, people realized that though a V12 generated more power, it came at the expense of more engine mass and engine length as well as requiring more fuel. I have the feeling that over at McLaren they realized that a V10 was a better engine package and creating a better overall package and that the V12 was rapidly becoming a thing of the past.
Remember, they were gone from 1996 on....
And I get the feeling that this was another reason for McLaren to team up with Peugeot as well, the more while they hads some experiences with the V10 concept as well. It was, in longer term thinking a more promising road to follow while the V12 route was a dead end street already of which they had seen enough.


Henri

[lustigson]

I'm wondering. Was the engine that McLaren tested the type 3512 that Larrousse, Lotus, Ligier, Lambo, and Minardi used from 1989 through 1993? Or did they build a new engine?

[former champ]

I believe it was the new motor Lambo built for 1993, a smaller and lighter V12 which apprantly impressed several onlookers. It was slotted into a modified MP4/8. The 8W article Matt Hughes provided in the 2nd post has some info on it.

[FredF1]

I'm prety sure there was (paddock/media) talk of Jordan using the Lambo engine instead of the Hart around 1994 but they hooked up with Peugeot instead after the McLaren debacle.

[lustigson]

Originally posted by FredF1
I'm prety sure there was (paddock/media) talk of Jordan using the Lambo engine instead of the Hart around 1994 but they hooked up with Peugeot instead after the McLaren debacle.

So Lamborghini could screwed by Peugeot twice?

[toolish]

The McLaren MP4/8 Lamborghini - or at least a replica of it - is on display at the Lamborghini museum in Bologna until October. More info: http://www.lamborghi...borghini-museum.

[stuartbrs]

There is an article somewhere on Autosport about the photo of the "all white McLaren mule" constructed for the test. 

 

The very famous photo was not all that it seemed it be... 

[jcbc3]

elaborate, please.

[bsc]

elaborate, please.

As I understand it, the photo was of a 'regular' car from a previous test, but closely cropped to avoid any debate over location. The car's livery was removed by applying tippex (pre Photoshop times) in order to create the plain white livery that the McLaren-Lamborghini tested in.

[lustigson]

Here you see said photograph.

[BRG]

Nice work with the Tippex then because it certainly doesn't look at all suspiciously photoshopped to me.  Or maybe they Tippexed the actual car?

Edited by BRG, 24 April 2017 - 10:38.

[kayemod]

The car's livery was removed by applying tippex (pre Photoshop times) in order to create the plain white livery that the McLaren-Lamborghini tested in.

 

Seeing the results, I find that very, very hard to believe. It would be a hell of a job, even using state of the art Photoshop today.

[stuartbrs]

It drove McLaren mad for years, wondering how they got the photo as the test was conducted in utter secrecy. 

 

It is indeed, a cropped/made up photo.

[jcbc3]

But if the test DID take place and the car WAS painted white, it doesn't really matter to the exhibition mentioned above that triggered this latest go around.

 

Or am I missing something?

[TennisUK]

There is more than just one image of the Estoril test. As well as Estoril Senna drove it at Pembrey and Silverstone (twice), where it was also driven by Hakkinen. There's a good thread on another forum but I shall refrain from putting a link on here to avoid annoying the powers that be.

[stuartbrs]

Full story on the Autosport photo can be found here.

 

https://joesaward.wo.../a-funny-story/

[jcbc3]

Here you see said photograph.

 

Having read the Saward blog, this photo must be from the open Estoril test, and not the elusive Autosport fake. So any chance anyone being able to dig that up?

[toolish]

More pictures on Suttons's web site: http://www.sutton-im...6aTieSoxNVEPA0m

[Nemo1965]

Interesting. The well respected Dutch magazine RTL GP wrote quite a long article about the McLaren-Lambo. If I believe THAT article, a McLaren-Lambo would have been the positive suprise of the 1993 season...

[BRG]

Given that dire unreliability was the main theme throughout the racing life of the Lambo engine, why would 1993 have been different?  Ford served McLaren pretty well that year, with Senna only beaten by Prost.  How would they have done any better with an more powerful but less reliable engine?

[Nemo1965]

Given that dire unreliability was the main theme throughout the racing life of the Lambo engine, why would 1993 have been different?  Ford served McLaren pretty well that year, with Senna only beaten by Prost.  How would they have done any better with an more powerful but less reliable engine?

 

For that you would have to read the article. I was quite skeptical about the abundant apparent praise of the engine. 

 

EDIT: The article appeared in 2013, number 1.

Edited by Nemo1965, 02 May 2017 - 18:52.

[pierrre]

mp4/8b at lamborghini's museum

 

Edited by pierrre, 24 June 2017 - 03:40.