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Toyota V6 Turbo F1 early 80s


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#1 ghinzani

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 20:18

Did it really exist? I recall reference to it in 1980 Autosports where it was rumoured to have been tested in a Lotus 79 (wow Imagine the turbo lag and ground effects around the old Fuji!!), and then there was a story they had purchased of all things a brand new March 802 to test it in... I guess a car for JF2 heading out to the land of the rising sun may have started that rumour.

I can also recall rumours of it surfacing again in the mid 80s. Anybody shed any light on it? I think the later iteration may have been to do with a Turbo version of the Yamaha F2 engine introduced in 1985.

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#2 Charles E Taylor

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Posted 21 February 2008 - 22:28

It did exist.

The project was called L9, one example sits in the foyer of Lotus Engineering at Hethel.

Intersting engine, V6 Supercharged and Turbocharged.

IIRC it did not get into a chassis.

Charlie

#3 ghinzani

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 20:15

Originally posted by Charles E Taylor
It did exist.

The project was called L9, one example sits in the foyer of Lotus Engineering at Hethel.

Intersting engine, V6 Supercharged and Turbocharged.

IIRC it did not get into a chassis.

Charlie


Charles isnt that the later engine from the mid 80s though? The one I am talking about was the one said to be testing in 1980 - or was that just a development? Did Lotus ever supply a test car? Autosport mentioned a 79.

#4 petefenelon

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 02:04

Wasn't it tied to potential Coca-Cola sponsorship of Team? - I think it's mentioned in Tony Rudd's book?

#5 ghinzani

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 06:57

Coca Cola? The 1980 Autosports with mention of the Toyota had Coca Cola being on Ferraris F1 cars. I guess this was later. Surely if the Toyota had tested in Japan in a Lotus 79 and/or March 802 someone would have seen it? I know Toyota had a presence in the G5 field at the time but that was a German built Celica, I guess though there was a saloon series in Japan whgich could have provided works drivers to test it?

#6 COUGAR508

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 10:11

Originally posted by petefenelon
Wasn't it tied to potential Coca-Cola sponsorship of Team? - I think it's mentioned in Tony Rudd's book?


Yes, that is the rumour that I was aware of. Very intriguing, too.

#7 ghinzani

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 11:55

I think we need some more Japanese members!!. Its not like a Lotus 79 with a turbo engine could be blasting around Mount Fuji in the early 80's and not raise an eyebrow is it?

#8 HistoryFan

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Posted 23 February 2008 - 14:25

The only thing I know is that Toyota had plans to enter in F1 in the mid-90s. I think with TOM's and later with the interesting Ikuzawa-team. But in the 80s... :confused:

#9 ghinzani

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 13:27

Originally posted by Charles E Taylor
It did exist.



Intersting engine, V6 Supercharged and Turbocharged.


Charlie


Very interesting, who else wanted to do something like this? I know Ferrari went for the Comprex solution in early testing. Why was super & turbo charging a dead end then? Surely it would have cured lag.

#10 Henri Greuter

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 13:52

Originally posted by ghinzani


Very interesting, who else wanted to do something like this? I know Ferrari went for the Comprex solution in early testing. Why was super & turbo charging a dead end then? Surely it would have cured lag.


The mechanical supercharger required power that was not available to the driven wheel anymore.
Unless they managed to do the same as Lancia managed to do with the Delta S4 Gp.B rally car.
That engine had the drive to the supercharger (Roots) disconnected once the reves were high enough to let the turbocharger provide all the boost.
But I also think that such a system would be very heavy and make the cars overweight. A Roots isn't very light at all.


That's what I can think of right now.


henri

#11 KSeries

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Posted 13 September 2022 - 12:03

Not a frequent visitor so I have only just spotted this topic - if anyone is still interested I was the who ran this project for Tony Rudd back in '82, it was quite a ride!



#12 AJCee

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Posted 13 September 2022 - 15:51

Definitely interested!

#13 AllanL

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Posted 13 September 2022 - 22:33

But I also think that such a system would be very heavy and make the cars overweight. A Roots isn't very light at all.

henri

Quite right too, who would want to add anything light to Ettore Bugatti's favourite "fastest lorry in the world". Just wouldn't do Old Boy.

 

The Roots blower would provide more boost at low revs than a turbo-charger, hence the turbo lag issue, but as you say the weight and inter-connecting control technology may well have outweighed any power band advantage. I have always thought that Roots blowers would make more sense for road cars and sound better to boot.

 

If only BRM had still been around in the '80s. I'm sure they would build it like a shot. They should never have let Tony Rudd go.

 

I once went to an IMechE meeting in Glasgow addressed by Tony Rudd when he discussed British industries' ability to repeat mistakes with examples from Rolls-Royce through BRM to Lotus.

 

Linking theme? :) (Unfair, Tony was the one trouble-shooting the issues)



#14 Catalina Park

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Posted 14 September 2022 - 06:18

Not a frequent visitor so I have only just spotted this topic - if anyone is still interested I was the who ran this project for Tony Rudd back in '82, it was quite a ride!

I'm interested.

#15 guiporsche

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Posted 14 September 2022 - 08:29

Same here!



#16 Charlieman

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Posted 14 September 2022 - 11:00

Quite right too, who would want to add anything light to Ettore Bugatti's favourite "fastest lorry in the world". Just wouldn't do Old Boy.

Funnily enough, the supercharger added just 100kg to a Bentley. Or 5% of gross weight with fuel and driver. When one compares the pros and cons, it was worth trying to see if it could last for 24 hours.



#17 Henri Greuter

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Posted 14 September 2022 - 18:21

Not a frequent visitor so I have only just spotted this topic - if anyone is still interested I was the who ran this project for Tony Rudd back in '82, it was quite a ride!

I join the club of interested listeners to everything you want and can share with us.



#18 Henri Greuter

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Posted 14 September 2022 - 18:31

Funnily enough, the supercharger added just 100kg to a Bentley. Or 5% of gross weight with fuel and driver. When one compares the pros and cons, it was worth trying to see if it could last for 24 hours.

Utterly surprised to see this thread coming alive again 15 years on.

 

t be honest, I think that a roots on such a Toyota V6 engine would not have been 100 kgs. No idea how the roots would ahve to work on that engine, continuously or, like on the DeltaS4 only for a certain lower rpm range. In case of the latter then a smaller, lighter one could be used.

But the added weight would have been a substantial figure, I'm sure that if it was to end up in a Lotus, then Colin Chapman must have shivered with the thought of having to cope with all that extra weight.



#19 arttidesco

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Posted 14 September 2022 - 22:47

Definitelty interested to hear more about this Toyota V6 Turbo please ?



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#20 KSeries

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Posted 15 September 2022 - 15:52

Well, it certainly wasn't a Roots blower! It was an axial compressor along the same (albeit miniaturised) lines as the compressor on a modern aircraft gas turbine engine and was placed in the vee. It was (imho) very over-designed with far too many stages because Tony Rudd's old Rolls Royce mate who was the consultant for axial compressors was very conservative, It ran full time and discharged into a pair of turbochargers (the matching of an axial compressor map, a radial compressor map, a reciprocating engine and an exhaust turbine presented, shall we say, some challenges... Dare I say, not one of Tony Rudd's better ideas! On full chat the axial alone took 150-200 shp to drive it.

It featured a pair of monoblocs with very narrow valve angles to allow the seat insert and seat machining to be done from the bottom of the bore. The (direct) injector lay below and between the inlet ports directing the fuel towards the exhaust valves. The monoblocs were retained by through bolts - which came up from the bottom - so if you wanted to take the "heads" off you had to turn the engine upside down and undo the bolt heads that emerged from the underside of the cast crankcase. These bolts, of course crossed over around the main bearings and the monoblocs had deep holes to accept them with tappings right up at about the same level as the ports - made designing the valve train much easier!

The direct fuel injection system used a 3 plunger jerk pump mounted one each side of the bottom of the block - the injection was controlled by a dirty great piezo-electrical stack supplied by Physics International (whose main business was with the US Department of Defence) and which controlled a spill valve and was all synchronised using a Moire Fringe device. This was all in-house designed at Lotus and worked a treat - using Lucas diesel pencil injectors more commonly seen on Ford Transits! We had them running up to 14,000 RPM to my sure and certain knowledge - we put 2% of something or other in the fuel to keep the FIE lubricated.

There are loads of stories and anecdotes from this project - the ceremonial first fire of the single cylinder engine to name but one...

#21 PhantomRaspberryBlower

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Posted 15 September 2022 - 21:15

It sounds like this wasn't an actual 'Toyota' engine at all - have I got the wrong end of the stick? Please regale us with further nuggets :up:



#22 70JesperOH

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Posted 16 September 2022 - 06:48

When the Toyota - Lotus connection was mentioned earlier in the thread, it got me to think about this mid-1980s project: https://rallygroupbs...-b-s-prototype/ - the Toyota MR2 for the abandoned Group S rally regulations.

 

There's no mention of Lotus in the text, but from memory period press made notice of this. There's even mentioning of a mysterious V6 engine tried in one of the MR2 prototype, said to produce 600 bhp!

 

Jesper



#23 KSeries

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Posted 16 September 2022 - 12:36

I can only speak for the L9 project which was agreed in late 81 and work started in 82. The Engineering was done by Lotus at Hethel and the funding came from Toyota. So it was a Toyota engine in the same sense that the DFV is a Ford engine... I left while the project was still running so I can't comment on whether it was ever put into any car  - but I was under the impression from people who stayed that it did not. I understand that the project could not survive the sale of a dominating stake in Lotus to GM and work stopped in short order and unfinished - but I wasn't there at that time so you'd need info from someone who was



#24 VWV

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Posted 16 September 2022 - 20:06

 https://ehfcv.com/lo...mula-1-engines/



#25 WonderWoman61

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Posted 17 September 2022 - 12:10

https://ehfcv.com/lo...mula-1-engines/


Makes for very interesting reading.

#26 KSeries

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Posted 17 September 2022 - 17:48

Yes, that's the one! Vertical bevel drive to the supercharger - lot of power but not much torque going up that shaft!



#27 KSeries

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Posted 18 September 2022 - 08:53

We ran the single using shop air for boost - and the test cell was right next to the great, big, Bellis and Morcom plant compressor. It took the paint shop several days to work out why the paint suddenly started to dribble out of their spray guns right in the middle of spraying a production car shell - and then come back with no warning a minute or two later. After it was realised that we were pinching all the air to feed our 250cc single we were banned from running during normal working hours!

#28 Henri Greuter

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Posted 19 September 2022 - 08:52

Yes, that's the one! Vertical bevel drive to the supercharger - lot of power but not much torque going up that shaft!

 

 

This reminds me a bit about an experimental prewar engine tested by Alfa Romeo:  they used a triple stage Roots but that was fed by a centrifugal supercharger.

That engine was never used in that configuration.


Edited by Henri Greuter, 19 September 2022 - 08:52.