77 replies to this topic

[Andy35]

The top 100 was printedf on Autocar today. What do you think of his choices?

I was suprised 10 beat 11 for a start. But Alan has seen a lot more than me


Regards

Andy

[sterling49]

I was surprised that NGH was soo far down the list at number 44, behind the likes of Ickx and Gurney, maybe this just proves the whole list thing, and that we all have such differing viewpoints

I would have put him much higher because of the qualities he displayed over many years,, the true grit after 7th April 1968 showed such determination and fighting spirit, but he did it

[D-Type]

Curious

When AH wrote The 100 Greatest Racing Drivers in 2000 he ranked Gurney at No 33, Graham Hill at 49 and Ickx at 55, so he must have revised his opinion - or forgotten what he wrote in this potboiler that I found remaindered in Poundland.

[sterling49]

That proves its worth then Duncan, I have read AH's columns for years, but that does not mean I will be adding this book to my collection

[rolf123]

I look at the top 30 and it's ridiculous:

http://www.autocar.c...AllCars/231490/

Aside from the no. 1, I'm perplexed by some of the others.

[turin]

Indulge me to quote myself

Originally posted by turin here
I did a little experiment with the F1 Racing list.

Tell me what do you think about this personal ranking:

1	Alberto Ascari		0.084785638	  

2	Ayrton Senna		0.127707641

3	Stirling Moss		0.175969544	  

4	Fernando Alonso	0.253192733	  

5	Michael Schumacher	0.322851764	  

6	Jochen Rindt		0.414052206	  

7	Alain Prost		0.518497586	  

8	Ronnie Peterson	0.522236302	  

9	Keke Rosberg		0.522302698	  

10	Niki Lauda		0.562122269	  

11	Stefan Bellof		0.575159585	  

12	Gilles Villeneuve	0.592584777	  

.....

50	Hans-Joachim Stuck	0.881409162

and my reply to the criticisms

Originally posted by turin
Great!!

If that is all you could find faulty, I'm rather pleased.

All I did is to copy the list in excel, assign a random number generator and then sort the list based on that random number (which are shown on the right column). I ran it only twice to get someone reasonable as number 1.

The only tweak was to divide the list in two, as to prevent Jenson Button being higher than Senna, say. So I put the originals 1-20 in a group, and the rest on another.

Funny that Senna, Moss, MS, FA, and Prost ended up in the top ten. If Clark and Fangio had made it, it would have been an incredible coincidence.

In short, I wouldn't take any list seriously.

[jgm]

Since when were Rosemeyer, Nuvolari and Moll F1 drivers?

[Stephen W]

Alan Henry is permitted to conject as to who were the Best 100, or even 30, F1 Drivers. The fact that he includes in the TOP 30 several drivers who (a) haven't driven in the F1 era, (b) never won an F1 GP, or © were never World Champions, is a somewhat odd situation.

Personally I think any list of the 30 Top Drivers in F1 that does not include Luigi Faglioli, Jody Scheckter, Alan Jones, and Graham Hill to name but FOUR is an utter disgrace. From the sound of it AH is just regurgitating an older list and passing it off as new!

:

[ensign14]

Meh, world championships are meaningless.

And if Jonesy is in the top 30, where does Tony "lapped Jones in identical car" Brise go?

[Barry Boor]

Hear, hear, Ens!

[ian senior]

Meaningless and hilarious at the same time. Lewis Hamilton at no 30.... he's done one season, for Pete's sake, a remarkable season, but how on earth can he be judged at this stage in his career? By the same token, we should see Giancarlo Baghetti at about no 31.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by jgm
Since when were Rosemeyer, Nuvolari and Moll F1 drivers?

Nuvolari took part in several F1 races

[petefenelon]

Let's see... well, 7, 9 and 23 (truly great drivers all) shouldn't be in there full stop if it's "F1"; 16 and 26 only really enter "F1" by their fingertips (and I'm not sure it wasn't still Formula A in 16's day).

Most of the rest of the top 10 are the 'usual suspects' in another permutation, no real surprises.

I can't see how you can put 10 ahead of 11; near-equal on track but 11 has the silverware to prove it; I think 10 was much more spectacular than 11, and generally achieved his success without getting involved in gamesmanship or psychological warfare... Now yes, 11 is controversial, but rating him that low? Maybe AH is saying a lot of it was the team, but these days 'the package' is everything and he was instrumental in creating it.

Slight feeling that 12 is overrated and over-romanticised. Yes he was a hero but...

14 I'd rate higher; 15 - come off it - a man who defeated himself so many times?

13 is possibly a bit high, 27 rather low.


Moderately enjoyable as a bit of fluff, but no real 'controversy' apart from how low 11 is rated. (And I'm no fan of his!).

[Hieronymus]

Is this list purely based on driving/racing skills or are his choices influenced by personal factors as well??

Can one view the complete list somewhere or can someone please post it here?

[Stephen W]

Originally posted by ensign14
Meh, world championships are meaningless.

And if Jonesy is in the top 30, where does Tony "lapped Jones in identical car" Brise go?

World Championships are not meaningless especially if you won one!

On the subject of Tony Brise, I did mention that I was naming "but FOUR".

This just shows how devisive these sort of lists are! :

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Stephen W
World Championships are not meaningless especially if you won one!

You'd have to be a bit insecure to think you justify your ranking on the basis of an excel spreadsheet stating that a second and a ninth is worth more than a fifth and a sixth.

[former champ]

Originally posted by D-Type
Curious

When AH wrote The 100 Greatest Racing Drivers in 2000 he ranked Gurney at No 33, Graham Hill at 49 and Ickx at 55, so he must have revised his opinion - or forgotten what he wrote in this potboiler that I found remaindered in Poundland.

Is there any chance you (or anyone else) could post that top 100 list from 2000? I'm curious to see it.

[ReWind]

Originally posted by Hieronymus
Can one view the complete list somewhere or can someone please post it here?

Yes, one can! They are much more busy over there...

[ensign14]

Originally posted by former champ


Is there any chance you (or anyone else) could post that top 100 list from 2000? I'm curious to see it.

ISTR it had Jim Clark at no. 8 so immediately discounted it as worse than useless.

[wdm]

Any list that ranks Ralf Schumacher below Roy Salvadori can't be all bad

[Vitesse2]

I notice Caracciola is down at 33 and Dick Seaman at 71. Neither of them ever drove an F1 car either. But if they and other pre F1 era drivers are there, where are Resta, Goux, Bruce-Brown ....?

And putting Lang at 26 - seven places above Caracciola and seventeen ahead of Wimille - is perverse, to say the least.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by wdm
Any list that ranks Ralf Schumacher below Roy Salvadori can't be all bad

True. But is Ralfie a better driver than Taffy von Trips, Eugenio Castellotti or Brian Redman?

[RobertE]

I fear all such lists are complete nonsense really - they must, by their nature, be both partial and partisan. Obviously, I'm pleased that he reckons Stirling at Numero Uno, but frankly, what does it matter? Alan will have seen some of them in action, of course, but others he will not. Some he will know/have known, others not. Those he neither knows/knew nor has ever seen in action have come down to him purely by reputation or statistics.

So when compiling such a list, one would be handicapped from the get-go!

[wdm]

Originally posted by Vitesse2

True. But is Ralfie a better driver than Taffy von Trips, Eugenio Castellotti or Brian Redman?

I think RobertE has just answered that much better than I ever could!

[D-Type]

Originally posted by former champ


Is there any chance you (or anyone else) could post that top 100 list from 2000? I'm curious to see it.

If I can find the time I will.

That book covered all racing drivers so he had A J Foyt and a few NASCAR drives in there as well.

[former champ]

Originally posted by D-Type
If I can find the time I will.

That book covered all racing drivers so he had A J Foyt and a few NASCAR drives in there as well.

Not a problem, thankyou.

[Hieronymus]

Mr. Henry tells us that the three worst world champions were:

1) Hulme
2) Graham Hill
3) Scheckter



Hamilton already at #30...!

[rl1856]

Without haveing seen the entire list or an explanation of the context in which the list was prepared, I do have a few observations.

It appears that weighting is given to results achieved rather than talent/potential. How else to explain John Surtees above Ronnie Peterson, or Lewis Hamilton at #30, or Brabham ranking above Andretti, Rindt, Lauda or Gurney ?

You can make a great case for Moss as #1, and make an equally great case for Fangio, Nuvolari, Senna.

However, I am very surprised to see Fangio at "only" #6. In a straight fight, in equal cars, Fangio consistantly outpaced Moss and Moss himself admitted that Fangio was better.

Chris Amon above Tony Brooks ? Fittipaldi above Andretti ?

The real conclusion is that lists such as this are highly subjective. You can correct for driving in different eras, but it is much more difficult to correct for the relative quality of the cars which is an extremely important variable.

Best,

Ross

[Gilles4Ever]

The List:

'The Top 100 F1 Drivers of All Time'

100. Brian Redman
99. Jochen Mass
98. Stefan Johansson
97 Piers Courage
96. Trevor Taylor
95. Eugenio Castellotti
94. Jacques Laffite
93. Stuart Lewis-Evans
92. Wolfgang Von Trips
91. Ralf Schumacher
90. Roy Salvadori

89. Mike Hailwood
88. Raymond Sommer
87. Luigi Musso
86. John Watson
85. Jarno Trulli
84. Innes Ireland
83. Tom Pryce
82. Tony Brise
81 René Arnoux
80. Thierry Boutsen

79. Johnny Servoz-Gavin
78. Jean-Pierre Beltoise
77. Richie Ginther
76. Eddie Irvine
75. Michele Alboreto
74. Bruce Mclaren
73. Peter Collins
72. Patrick Depailler
71. Dick Seaman
70. Derek Warwick

69. Martin Brundle
68. Rubens Barrichello
67. Jenson Button
66. Patrick Tambay
65. Riccardo Patrese
64. Lorenzo Bandini
63. Elio de Angelis
62. Stefan Bellof
61. Froilan Gonzalez
60. Felipe Massa

59. David Coulthard
58. Jo Siffert
57. Peter Revson
56. Louis Chiron
55. Carlos Pace
54. Juan-Pablo Montoya
53. Jean Alesi
52. Denny Hulme
51. Clay Regazzoni
50. Ricardo Rodriguez

49. Jacques Villeneuve
48. Jean Behra
47. Pedro Rodriguez
46. Gerhard Berger
45. François Cevert
44. Graham Hill
43. Jean-Pierre Wimille
42. Jody Scheckter
41. Giuseppe Farina
40. Mike Hawthorn

39. Damon Hill
38. Phil Hill
37. James Hunt
36. Alan Jones
35. Jacky Ickx
34. Didier Pironi
33. Rudolf Caracciola
32. Fernando Alonso
31. Nigel Mansell
30. Lewis Hamilton

29. Kimi Raikkonen
28. Keke Rosberg
27. Dan Gurney
26. Hermann Lang
25. Ronnie Peterson
24. John Surtees
23. Guy Moll
22. Nelson Piquet
21. Jochen Rindt
20. Niki Lauda

19. Mario Andretti
18. Jack Brabham
17. Emerson Fittipaldi
16. Achille Varzi
15. Carlos Reutemann
14. Tony Brooks
13. Chris Amon
12. Gilles Villeneuve
11. Michael Schumacher
10. Mika Hakkinen

9. Tazio Nuvolari
8. Jackie Stewart
7. Bernd Rosemeyer
6. Juan-Manuel Fangio
5. Alberto Ascari
4. Alain Prost
3. Ayrton Senna
2. Jim Clark
1. Stirling Moss

A review of the book by Mark Glendenning

[kayemod]

This list is not worthy of even a semi-serious debate on TNF, haven't we all got something more useful and productive to do? I'm still waiting to hear from Mr Capps on the subject, but somehow I doubt that he'll even bother for something as lightweight as this. The word 'fluff' would be praise indeed.

[Keir]

..... of course, it's all down to opinion, isn't it ??

[Keir]

Guy Moll ??

Well, he was one of those shooting stars in the 30's. Enzo Ferrari only had good things to say about the young Algerian.

[AndreasF1]

Alan Henry may be getting old and is starting to loose some of his brain cells.

Reuteman in front of Lauda? Did he forget 1977 after Lauda was written of by Ferrari and staged one of the greatest comebacks of any sport in history. Lauda didn't even think that Reuteman was a serious threat as a teammate. LMFAO ...

Hakkinen in front of MS very interesting.

[giacomo]

The ranking of Carlos Reutemann and his teammates is a good example for the value of this list.

15. Carlos Reutemann
19. Mario Andretti
20. Niki Lauda
36. Alan Jones
55. Carlos Pace


Laughable.

[MCS]

The usual absolute rubbish then... :yawn:

Just wish somehow we could stop creating all these lists.

[brandspro]

Originally posted by rl1856
Without haveing seen the entire list or an explanation of the context in which the list was prepared, I do have a few observations.

It appears that weighting is given to results achieved rather than talent/potential. How else to explain John Surtees above Ronnie Peterson, or Lewis Hamilton at #30, or Brabham ranking above Andretti, Rindt, Lauda or Gurney ?

You can make a great case for Moss as #1, and make an equally great case for Fangio, Nuvolari, Senna.

However, I am very surprised to see Fangio at "only" #6. In a straight fight, in equal cars, Fangio consistantly outpaced Moss and Moss himself admitted that Fangio was better.

Chris Amon above Tony Brooks ? Fittipaldi above Andretti ?

The real conclusion is that lists such as this are highly subjective. You can correct for driving in different eras, but it is much more difficult to correct for the relative quality of the cars which is an extremely important variable.

Best,

Ross

While there are many eyebrow raising rankings on the list (Lewis Hamilton...at 30...???), Fittipaldi above Andretti, IMO, is spot on. Admittedly, I've always felt that Andretti was overrated, but Fittipaldi, having won in his first season in F1, went on to win two world championships with two different teams, while Andretti managed only one - in an exceptional car. The argument could then be made that Andretti would have done more had he not spent as much time competing in Indycars in the US, but even there, Fittipaldi doubled Andretti's number of Indy 500 victories in significantly fewer attempts. It could also be argued that, had Fittipaldi made the switch to Indycars sooner, instead of beating his head against the wall with the Copersucar/Fittipaldi F1 effort, his record there would probably have included more than two Indy 500's and one championship (by the same token, what more might he have achieved in F1 if not for the Copersucar/Fittipaldi blind alley?).

As has been said, these kind of lists are always subjective, and always contentious, but I think a fair argument can be made for ranking Fittipaldi above Andretti.

[Jim Thurman]

You know, everytime these lists come up, I sit back and watch all the bitching and moaning from those here at TNF

So, I issue a challenge...

Let's have our own TNF panel. MotorSport's 100 Greatest Lists were done by large panels voting and then tabulating, so why not do the same here? Or have everyone on TNF do their own list and send them off line to someone who could compile them and post the final.

So we need a 100 Greatest "Grand Prix"/F1 drivers, 100 Greatest Drivers (all forms) and maybe even delve into the 100 Greatest Drives or some of the other "100" lists done since 2000.

Of course, considering some of the biases here, maybe the whole lot isn't worth the bin ;)

And any bitching, pissing and/or moaning would be moot, because if you participated, well...then you don't have anything to complain about. Somehow though, I suspect the loudest would be those who wouldn't have the brass to participate

[sterling49]

Interesting to know your "take" on the list Jim? Do you agree/disagree vehemently? I would participate, but it would be still not to everyones liking, but as you say, at least voted for by TNF. I think that the very fact that TNF members post here, shows that they are passionate about their subject, whether they were a JYS or Fangio fan, it depends on your viewpoint and experiences I guess :

[Barry Boor]

I'll collate it if sufficient people are prepared to participate.

I would suggest a minimum of 20 people - otherwise there would probably be numerous 'ties'.

It could, of course, be anonymous.

[sterling49]

Well done Barry! I am happy to put my name to my votes, whatever everyone agrees to, I will go along with though.

.......feeling better yet?

Sterling

[Barry Boor]

Actually, not really. My 60th birthday passed yesterday without any celebrations and my cough seems to be getting no better - but enough of my problems....

[Hieronymus]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
I'll collate it if sufficient people are prepared to participate.

I would suggest a minimum of 20 people - otherwise there would probably be numerous 'ties'.

It could, of course, be anonymous.

I would suggest that these 20 people represents a wide variety of nationalities. Perhaps one will get a more objective, non-biased view.

[Stephen W]

Originally posted by Hieronymus


I would suggest that these 20 people represents a wide variety of nationalities. Perhaps one will get a more objective, non-biased view.

I think that the figure should be like Barry suggested a "minimum of 20" - why limit the input as the more data you get the higher the quality of the final product.

Put me down as a contributor - in fact I have already done an F1 Top 20!

[Wolf]

Happy birthday, Barry!

As for lists, and rankings- we had one before (participants nominate top 10 GP drivers and the top 10 are the ones with most nominations) : TNF Top 10 GP Drivers (ISTR there were about 40 TNFers who voted).

[zakeriath]

Somebody should contact Duckworth & Lewis so see if they can come up with a mathamatical formulation to rank drivers base on various factors. That way all the personal, nationalist views are eliminated.

In the end South Africa would still lose by 27 runs.

[ian senior]

Originally posted by zakeriath
Somebody should contact Duckworth & Lewis so see if they can come up with a mathamatical formulation to rank drivers base on various factors. That way all the personal, nationalist views are eliminated.

In the end South Africa would still lose by 27 runs.

Would the motor racing equivalent be the Duckworth - Costin Method?

[rl1856]

Originally posted by brandspro


While there are many eyebrow raising rankings on the list (Lewis Hamilton...at 30...???), Fittipaldi above Andretti, IMO, is spot on. Admittedly, I've always felt that Andretti was overrated, but Fittipaldi, having won in his first season in F1, went on to win two world championships with two different teams, while Andretti managed only one - in an exceptional car. The argument could then be made that Andretti would have done more had he not spent as much time competing in Indycars in the US, but even there, Fittipaldi doubled Andretti's number of Indy 500 victories in significantly fewer attempts. It could also be argued that, had Fittipaldi made the switch to Indycars sooner, instead of beating his head against the wall with the Copersucar/Fittipaldi F1 effort, his record there would probably have included more than two Indy 500's and one championship (by the same token, what more might he have achieved in F1 if not for the Copersucar/Fittipaldi blind alley?).

As has been said, these kind of lists are always subjective, and always contentious, but I think a fair argument can be made for ranking Fittipaldi above Andretti.

Lists such as this are highly subjective as evidenced by this thread.....

RE Andretti

His results tend to be discounted by how much he spread himself among various types of cars and racing leagues. But, how may people can say that they qualified on the pole for their 1st and last GP, seperated by an interval of 13 or 14 years ? At the Glen in 68, Mario had only a handfull of laps in the car, first at Monza and then in the US, yet he qualified on the pole. While his participation in F-1 was sporadic for the next 6 years, whenever he was able to appear, he was always competative. It is correct to point out that had Fittipaldi commited himself to Indycar raceing earlier, he would have achieved much more. On the other hand, had Andretti fully commited himself to F-1 his GP results would have been much more extensive. As an example, consider that for the early part of the 1971 F-1 season, he was able to participate in all of the early GP. He won 2 races (non champ Questor GP and championship SF GP). As late as the Monaco GP he was leading the GP championship. Unfortunately, his supsiquent participation in F-1 was sporadic until he went back to Lotus in 1976, where he took a team at rock bottom, back to the front of the grid within a few races.

Fittapaldi is a worthy double champion, who achieved much in F-1 and in the US. He is one of the greats, but I don't rate him better than Andretti, on the other hand you do.

What was it Votaire said....... ?

Best,

Ross

[kayemod]

Originally posted by rl1856


What was it Votaire said....... ?

Best,

Ross

I'm pretty sure that Voltaire would have gone for Andretti.

[Vitesse2]

rl1856: you are Nigel Roebuck and I claim my five pounds!

[ex Rhodie racer]

I´m sure no one even noticed, but I have been laid up in bed for awhile and was unable to post. The reason for my incapacity was reading the opening post on here where the list of drivers was given. As you know, it starts at 100 and descends to the top choice. Again, I am sure no one has noticed, but I am not the greatest fan of that Moss fellow from England, but nevertheless, even I would put him in a list of the top 100 drivers. By the time I got to #40, I thought, this list is a load of nonsense. He´s left Moss out of the top 100. By the time I arrived at #20 I was convinced of it´s flawed nature as the name of S Moss was nowhere to be see. A grave oversite I thought. And I think you will agree.
Imagine my horror, after having dismissed this list as a hoax, seeing the name S.Moss at the bottom of the page. Even worst, next to that name was the number, dare I say it, 1. Well, I fell to the floor in an uncontrollable fit of laughter and it was at this point I felt a gut string pop.
I tell you, lists like this can be a hazardous to ones health..