97 replies to this topic

[wembi]

IMO...NO! But I am dissapointed to hear from the media and some BB here that Mazzacane who was running 4th at the time, should have let Hakkinen through. Mazzacane did a great job and today was by far, the best race of his F1 career so far. Gaston played it fair and square. Then he made one mistake (went too wide) and Mika duly took advantage of that mistake which is what a 2X world champion should do.

The fact that TV commentators such as Derek Bell ( FoxTV-USA) and Murray Walker (ITV) were appaled at Gaston's fine performance, angered me and showed clearly how partisan these commentators truly are. When Damon Hill raced Shuey in Japan in 98, Derek Bell called it "racing for position". When Mazzacane raced intelligently for a fine 4th place against Hakkinen, Derek Bell called him " stupid".

So F1 fans out there, do you approve or dissaprove of Mazzacane's performance?


W.

[fissijo]

I agree with you and Mazzacane 100%, he was fairly in that position, and if Hakkinen in a McLaren can't get by then it is his problem not Mazzacanes... I was personally cheering Mazzacane on when he was ahead cos it was brilliant!!!!!

Joei

[Daemon]

It's quite clear that Mazzacane had every right to "block" Hakkinen, as it was for position. It was great to see the Minardi up there next to a Mclaren actually racing. Good luck to him

[arcwulf7]

No blue flags were flying and rightfully so. Mazzacane had the right and the responsibility to contest the pass. I honestly thought Hakkinen's gesticulations were some confusion bred of his usually passing a Minardi fairly early in the race as a backmarker. If not, he should have realized that he would have to duel Mazzacane for the position, no matter how futile the situation for the Minardi appeared.

[FerrariFanInTexas]

The TV commentators were dead wrong. No driver should have to yield a points-paying position to another.

When I watch a McLaren unable to take out a Minardi on the longest front straight of the year, I know I've seen it all. Talk about different set-ups! That antiquated Ford engine in the Minardi must have 100 fewer horses than the Ilmor, but Hakkinen couldn't get by until Mazzacane finally made a slight error.

McLaren must have been running some major wing, expecting the mighty Ilmor to blow a hole through the air sufficient to keep them ahead on the straight. Too bad the Ilmor blew a hole in itself this time!

Avanti Ferrari!

[LUCKYSTRIKE]

NO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Indian Chief]

Hakkinen did some waving, but it was great to see a Minardi dicing for position with a McLaren.

Last time we saw that was in Nurburgring '99 when Luca Badoer pulled away from Hakkinen!!!

[Hooster]

If Hakkinen can not pass a Minardi he deserves to stay behind it. It's that simple. Derek bell should take back what he said about Mazza. If he soes not the rules of this board prohibit me from voicing my opinion of him. Let's just say he is a ******* ******* and leave it at that.

(This is not a purely an adult board so I have applied self censorship ;) )[p][Edited by Hooster on 09-25-2000]

[Lamont]

Clearly racing for position. If Mika can't get around 'em, tough. I'd say the same thing if Schumi ever found himself in the same position.

[Mrv]

Forza Minardi. Bellisima. That was wonderful to see. What did the man do wrong? This is F1 and racing, Mika and Mclaren should quit bitching and start racing. They should look at themselves for that embarrasing blocking by DC. They showed the world that they will do everthing possible to win the title even with dirty tactics.

[westendorf]

Go Minardi, if MH passes so be it if he cannot pass so be it. Indy was a passable track, if that is a word. Alot of overtaking came at the end of the front straight in turn one. We sat on the out side of turn one and at the top row seats I wouldn't trade them next year for any other. Don't worry what the media says they have their own fav. just like you or I. Ciao, GFW

[Keith Steele]

I didnt see anything illegal.

[desmo]

In the relatively brief look shown on TV I didn't see anything like illegal blocking. Mazzacane (GM?) merely held the racing line and of course wouldn't yield it for position. What kind of driver wouldn't vigorously defend his fourth(?) place. What astounded me was how fast the Minardi was in the oval section. Mika seemed to be able to make no impression in the bit they showed on TV.

[Bex37]

Hey Wembi, I know who the stupid one is (re Derek Bell's comment) and it certainly isn't Mazzacane! Derek Bell, you have made an ass of yourself.

[Antti]

Mazzacane obviously was doing his thing and that's it. But then again when the WDC (and WCC) are on the line maybe people should sort of take a view of not messing with it. Like -97 when the McLaren gave instructions to Mika and David to stay out of the battle between MS and JV. Or like in -98 all the backmarkers folded infront of MS... I did not like DCs driving in the beginning even though I am MH supporter.

My whole point is that since there are only two guys figting for the championship it would be too bad if some third party decides the outcome... But, yes, technically GM was correct.

Antti

[Bex37]

Have you forgotten that a podium finish is to Minardi what a championship is to Ferrari. The point is, everyone out there is entitled to finish in their highest possible finishing position, provided they are not being lapped. If a Ferrari or a McLaren cannot pass a Minardi, then the Minardi deserves to be in front and the Ferrari or McLaren must accept the consequences of that.

Having said that, it is unlikely that the Minardi would hold up the Ferrari. They would be looking for a new test track in no time.

[Mat]

It was sensational to watch Mazzacane race so well early on. Shame he ran wide.

Antii, I must disagree with you. What is the difference between a Minardi racing with Hakkinen with 3 races to go and the title in the balance, and Fisichella getting together with Shumacher in Germany half way through the season, when all sill seemed safe for Shumacher.

And the answer should be nothing at all. All the races count, for all the drivers, all the time. The title contenders have no right to demand to be at the front. They have to work there way up.

On the other hand, I think it is silly for, say, Mazzacane to make it too difficult, in other words, he should have every right to fight for that position, but once it is conceded, dont try and risk a clash. But when I think about it, I guess that's how it should be no matter what the situation.

Mat

[baddog]

mazzacane was doing what 20 other drivers on the grid would have done. good for him.

Antti, I dont agree at all. being the championship contender doesnt mean you automatically get 1st or 2nd and everyone else should get out of your way. to be a genuine champ contender you have to be good enough that you can MAKE it happen.. mika made rather a meal of mazzacane but got by eventually. nothing to talk about. Yes noone should punt out a champ contender in the last races, but making him work for a pass is entirely fine

Shaun

[DangerMouse]

They were racng for position and Mezzacane had every right to be there, similarly MS has complained about DCs driving, saying that as he is not fighting for the WDC he should be less agressive - tough. He's fighting for position (team and his own) and has every right to do what he did.

Hakkinen (rightfully) did not complain about the Minardi as he knows that the Minardi had every right to fight for it's place. MS needs to stop throwing his toys out the pram.
And well done Minardi for giving the Mac a hard time - it certainly brought a smile to my face!

[tifosi]

DM, I didn't hear MS complain about DC's tactics, only the move DC made when MS passed when. DC did move over and hit Schumacher. This can be seen clearly from the overhead. However if you say that MS somewhere was complaining about DC's blocking up to that point I'll take your word for it.

I would say there is one difference that you yourself inadvertedtly pointed out. Mazzacane was desperately fighting for position. Who knows what could have happened. No problem, he certaintly didn't make it hard for MH to get by, only didn't concede the position either. DC, contrary to your statement was NOT fighting for position. He was deliberatly pushing MS back into MH. I saw noone (i.e. MS), complain about this, only DC slamming into MS when the pass was made.

[CDNgrl]

It appears that everyone believes Mazzacane was in the right. I agree 100%. At first I thought he was blocking but quickly realized he was racing for position. What a sight! Good for him. It surprised me that it took Hakkinen so long to eventually pass. He must have been FURIOUS!

[magic]

mh racing a rookie whilst ms is running away.
pretty tough.
cause risking tangling, going off looking silly and loosing wdc.

anyway mh did the right thing then went after ms at 0'9 secs a lap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

us fanz wuz robbed.

[Oho]

Ave !!!

Mikas car was setup for quick lap times, not for top speed. It was apparent during the few laps David diced with Michael, Mika was unable to keep up down the straight. This I believe contributed to Mika being stuck behind Mazzacane. In the infield turns where Mika was quickest he had no chance of overtaking and he simply didn't have the straight line speed to do it down the straight. Considering that he was on dry grooves he would have had to execute the pass down the straight and resume normal line for braking as the damp off line track would not have given him suffcient grip for outbraking. How did he eventually get by. Did Mazzacane pit from front of him?

- Oho -

[green-blood]

I agree completely, if MH couldn't get past , for position, then tough.... I am looking forward to seeing how minardi perform with supertec engines in 2001.

Murray and Bell should look at themselves and ask if they did a professional job yesterday??

[Ellen2]

When Hakkinen mentioned that because of Mazzacane he was slower for 7 laps, Minardi replied:

"Mika lost his sense of reason. Gaston was ahead of him, not being lapped. He was defending his position and brlilliantly so. That shows how little respect some people have developed for smaller teams like our. I find it peculiar that it's always McLaren's drivers that have something to complain about our drivers...."

I think it says it all. Gaston was 4th and the fact he didn't let Mika by easily only shows he is there for real. Way to go Gaston!!!!! best race of his career.

[Lamont]

Originally posted by Oho
How did he eventually get by. Did Mazzacane pit from front of him?

Yup.

[Lamont]

Originally posted by tifosi

However if you say that MS somewhere was complaining about DC's blocking up to that point I'll take your word for it.

Quite the opposite, in the press conference MS explicitly stated that DC was perfectly within his rights to try and slow him down, he apparently just didn't care for his behavior during the actual pass.

[man from martinlaakso]

Oho is right, MH had more wing than Mazzacane, so Mika was relatively slow on the main straight, but quick on a whole lap. But because Mika's top speed was not the best possible, a Minardi could block him for several laps and Mika lost perhaps 5 - 7 sec because of that. I did not like Mazzacane's tactics, because he involved to a battle, which was actually not his (MH vs. MS). However, Mazzacane did not do anything illegal, he had the right to stay ahead of Mika as long he could. I think, that this situation was pretty similar to DH's situation in Suzuka 1998. Damon blocked Michael for several laps, and MS lost nearly 20 sec because of DH, but that's life.

[green-blood]

the battle was HIS - for 4th place, are you suggesting that a professional driver should not do everything within his power to obtain the very best possible finishing place for his team. If he was a jokey he'd be suspended for not trying.

Well done Gaston. Basically McLaren trimmed out their car in such a way that MH couldnt pass - tough.

[JaqFan]

Actually, Mazza' was fighting for a podium position (3rd).

[man from martinlaakso]

Green-Blood, the battle would have been his, if this would have happened in the closing phase of the race, because then Mazzacane would have had some chance to keep his position. Now everybody knew (also Mazzacane himself), that Mika will pass him sooner or later. So it was more a harm to Mika than a gain to Mazzacane. Of course the Minardi team and its sponsors surely loved it, so we can't critizise Mazzacane very heavily, but the reality is, that if Mika's engine would not have blown, then Mazzacane's blocking might have decided this race.

[baddog]

mazzacane was NOT BLOCKING, he was defending his legitimate race position. noone, not even our precious heroes, is entitled to pass anyone for position without working for it. if MS is able to force his way past DC for position, then MH can damned well force his way past Gaston Mazzacane.

And you might note mfm, that MS lost far more time behind DC at the start than MH lost behind GM

Shaun

[Max Torque]

Does EVERYONE here ignore some MAJOR fact?
The fact is that Mazzacane was going to pit for tyre change as everyone else (the only question was when) and so he was anyway going to fall behind Mika.
Please tell me I am wrong.

Mazzacane wasn't doing anything wrong TECHNICALLY, but as we've seen many times in the past, a midfielder (if we can call Minardi that) when it happens for some reason to be leading a championship contender AND is on a different pace AND is by no way going to keep his position (he is going to pit soon, Mika already did and that's why Gaston happened in front of him) then he usually pulls aside. Sauber has done it before, hell, I can even remember one time HHF in the twice-GP-winning '99 Jordan doing it last year!

BUT NO! Mazzacane had EVERY RIGHT!
Give me a break please.
Be at least slightly reasonable.

And for the matter of Mika being unable to pass the Minardi so he deserved it, PLEASE! What would he do? Mazzacane (the proverbial mobile chicane) is known for ignoring faster drivers who are going to pass him and ALWAYS gives them a hard time. Mika would risk his entire race with a daring move. It would be unwise.

That's my opinion.
Anyone care to convince me otherwise?

[p][Edited by Max Torque on 09-26-2000]

[Megatron]

If Mika can not find his way past a man with 80 HP less than him with those huge straights, then he has no one to blame and should not be pointing fingers.

I don't think Mazzacane was doing anything but protecting his line. If he was blocking or if he was being lapped, it would have been different.

[baddog]

max, can you not see the contradiction in your views on mazzacane and DC in this race?

if everyone else should clear out of the way and let the championship competitiors go then everyone should. either that or everyones entitled to race them. you cant have it both ways. are only competitiors teammates allowed to interfere? or maybe those whos cars are win-competitive? whos to decided? you?

Shaun

[Max Torque]

Baddog I NEVER said that David had any right to do that!!!

On another thread I said that I was extremely disappointed that McLaren fell so low as to encourage such a tactic.

I don't contradict myself at all. I am reffering to the Mazzacane issue and ONLY to that.

[baddog]

apologies for that max.. but you are still way wrong on the mazzacane front. he didnt even block mika, blocking implies going slow to hold someone up or swerving all over the place to keep them back, not just racing ahead of them.

Shaun

[Max Torque]

I said that Mazzacane wasn't tchnically doing anything wrong.
But, in such cases, common sense dictates you should not give the championship contender a hard time for the reasons I mentioned in my previous post.

Anyone has to say something on that?

PS: I have to go now. I'll catch up with this debate later.
Bye.

[arcwulf7]

Hakkinen and McLaren made a strategic decision in bringing the McLaren in to change to dry tyres. The thinking was that they would be faster than Michael as the track dryed, but the tactical implication was that they would have to fight back up to a position in which they could contest for the lead. Michael chose to stay out on wets, hoping the track would support a charge for another few laps, KNOWING one of his advantages would be that that Mika would have to fight for position past several cars to challenge him. If Mazzacane had waved Hakkinen by he would not only be failing in his responsibility to his team (and sponsors), and fans, and his own position BUT to the INTEGRITY of the race in general. Well done Mazzacane. What was Mika thinking of with his graceless, unsportsmanlike comments. I suggest he keep his hands on the wheel and stop waving them around like a fool when he's jostling for position, and stop making idiotic complaints about having to RACE for a victory with undesirables. GO MINARDI, BEAT McLAREN [p][Edited by arcwulf7 on 09-26-2000]

[baddog]

k max

Ill explain what I mean.. I DONT subscribe to the idea that just because a driver is in close competition for the WDC he is owed any favours by other drivers. I HATE things like the jerez 97 fiasco, where a deal was struck between mclaren and williams to cheat ferrari out of the WDC. I mean those harsh words too. the mac cars agreed to allow JV to have a free ride at the start of the race in exchange for a race win being gifted to mika (the least deserved win in f1 history, however much I wanted to see mika win races) If they had done so and things had panned out differently the incident between MS and JV might very easily have never taken place, and MS would have been WDC (PLEASE NOTE THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MS UNNACEPTABLE TACTIC IN THAT RACE). It didnt make any difference but it might have and that is unnaceptable.

Im sure that sounds very different from a minardi in front of a mclaren this year, but in spirit it is really the same thing.

to me, it stinks. I can accept teammates helping each other out as this IS a team sport, but further than that it shouldnt go

Shaun

[The Sleeper]

Approve 100%!

They were racing for position, so why should Mazzacane act any other way than Frentzen, Schumacher or Villeneuve? Because his car is slower? No, since it wasn't in these circumstances. Hakkinen couldn't get past the Minardi without a fight, which is a joy to see, since I'm fond of the Minardi team.

The only conclusion I can make, is that Hakkinen, like many others, changed to dries too soon. From what I've seen, dries were only getting faster around lap 12, when Button set the fastest lap. Only Mazzacane, Frentzen, Diniz and Schumacher stayed out that long.

IMO Mazzacane deserves these five minutes of fame. Eventhough he's being criticized all season as if he was the new Ricardo Rosset, he's been doing not bad at all. He qualified for all races, he outqualified Gene 3 times, while most of us regard Gene as a pretty decent driver, and most importantly Mazzacane is able to take the car to the flag, which can't be said of most rookies.

Max Torque : slightly reasonable question : if Hakkinen was so much faster, why didn't he outbrake Mazzacane at the end of the start finish straight?

[RedFever]

Mazzacane had all the right to defend his position. Not only it was LEGAL, but it was the thing to do. Otherwise, he should just hang his helmet and go golfing.

You guys, just because disappointed with the race result, are offending the professionality of this driver. He is there to race and place his car as far ahead as he can. Mika was in 5th in that moment and he is paid to defend his position. What would have happened if it would have started to rain again? Mazzacane would have been in a formidable position to achieve some points.

A driver MUST give all he has all the time. If he is being lapped, he MUST get out of the way, but if he is defending his position, it is irrelevant who is behind. Didn't JV do the same with SChumi earlier in the same, keeping him behind him in 8th for 20 laps? what was a BAR doing in front, slowing 2" per lap one of the two WDC contenders??? exactly the same thing Mazzacane was doing: racing his race. Congrats to Gaston, just like to JV in Spain, for fighting like lions against faster cars.

[Mickey]

Of course Mazzacane was right.
However, I believe Hakk didn't realise that the Minardi was on the leading lap. He is so used to see them battling for scraps that the thought of a Minardi in front of him didn't even cross his mind. He probably should have checked the facts before speaking, but the disappointment at retiring must have been really bad.

[RedFever]

Mickey, Mika's sign from his pit said "pos 5 - 1.2 MAZZ"

Pretty clearly tells him Gaston was ahead of him......

[Dudley]

Personally I would have been very dissapointed if he'd moved over. He was genuinly ahead, and staying ahead.

Personally I disagree with blue flags anyway, my reasoning being that if you can't pass a car going a second slower than you, you don't deserve to win a thing anyway.

[Lamont]

Originally posted by Max Torque

But, in such cases, common sense dictates you should not give the championship contender a hard time for the reasons I mentioned in my previous post.

Anyone has to say something on that?

Mazzacane was fighting for a points paying position, vital points which are the key to the lifeblood of teams like Minardi, Bernie TV Bucks. Yes Mazzacane was coming in the pits, so what? He was ahead of Mika in the race and I see absolutely no reason why he should just move over for MH. I'd say the same thing if it was MS or DC or RB or anyone else in the same position.

[Mickey]

Red Fever:

whoops, I didn't think of that at all. Maybe he was just so busy trying to pass him that he forgot to look at his pit board (this would remind me of Alesi @ Melbourne 97).

Being a junior member is cool, as no one knows yet which side I'm on. Let's see how long I can keep it this way...

[Brackets]

Originally posted by Mickey
Being a junior member is cool, as no one knows yet which side I'm on. Let's see how long I can keep it this way...

With that nick, your days are numbered

Anyway, as for Mazzacane: he had every right to defend his position. Publicity wise, it was even a smart move. It has been since Minardi's pole position flukes in the early eighties (?that long already?) that I've seen a minardi on screen for *that* long. I'm sure it must have been one hell of an ego trip as well, and we all love those.

As an aside: unfortunately for Mika, he was not given the same treatment that MS got in Suzuka 2 years ago, where everybody with whom he was supposed to 'fight for position' basically parked their cars.

Were Mazza's actions a whise move racing wise? I doubt it. Mazza found himself in a points scoring position. There wasn't a chance in hell he was going to be ahead of Mika once the first set of real pitstops was out of the way, and a podium would be far fetched too, but he was certainly looking at a top six position. In conditions like that, it may be wise to just get out of the way of the faster car, so that you can concentrate on running your own race and not waste time while blocking in what will end up a lost battle anyway. I've seen fisichella do this before. It did get him labelled as a pussy around here though, but it scored him some points.

Of course, stuff like that goes against the nature of a racer. Never mind the fact that I thoroughly enjoyed that battle. Heck, I enjoy all battles these days coz there's so bloody little of them to begin with!

Jimbo.

[RedFever]

Mickey something tells me you are Schumi fan.....

[Mickey]

Jimbo:
good point about my nick , but it actually doesn't bear any relation to my F1 loyalties. It's just that, with a real name like Michele, I could be easily mistaken for a girl!

Red Fever:
I'm hiding! And who's Schumi, anyway?;)