McLaren MCL33 -- Part II

Alonso onboard, start included.

 

One of the related videos in Youtube, it would be nice to get views like these during the weekend (skip to 2:05), you get a better feeling of the speed:

At 4:07 you can tell by the way how much quicker the Mercedes is, in that lap at least.

Edited by prty, 02 April 2018 - 13:42.

Excited about Bahrain Gp. It will be more representative than the first race. I expect close fight with Haas and Renault. I hope upgrades will be brought there and they work as expected. I feel Vandoorne will be more competitive there. We need to continue maximising everything before we catch up with the upgrades in Spain.

To be competitive in Bahrain you need good brakes, good traction, good tyre usage and good power. I think our car is good under braking, tyre usage and traction but we need good power for the straights in s1 and S3 and good aerodynamic downforce in S2. Red Bull will have advantage in S2 as they have more aerodynamic grip right now.

On this track and next one we will have a clear pictures what s the gap beetween Mercedes,Ferrari,Redbull,Haas,Renault,Mclaren.But everyone will bring updates so it will also depend on who will be the fastest to produce pieces and correlation beetwen factory and track...Mclaren had a very good correlation last year when you hit 95% it s a great result.My prediction is Mercedes and Ferrari will be close..in races not in qualy at least on Hamilton because Bottas made too much mistake for me.behind Redbull will be alone..and mclaren will close a little bit the gap I think  following by Renault and Haas...after that who care 

Alonso:-  “We saw the potential of the car, we understood we had a good machine in our hands,” said Alonso. “Now is the time for McLaren to come back to the top positions, and to do so you have to compete against the best teams in the world: Red Bull, Ferrari and Mercedes. “And to be at that level we need to be better than them [in development], and we need to close that gap as soon as possible. And this will come with updates and clever ideas, and I’m sure we’ll bring those very soon.”

Boullier :- Fernando knows what is coming, what we have but we can’t use today, but it will be unlocked in the future races. We have already a lot of things coming which we couldn’t have brought here [Australia].” “You can see as well there is a difference between qualifying pace and race pace. Our race pace is more competitive than our qualifying pace.

https://www.formula1...t-to-top-3.html

Edited by Quickshifter, 02 April 2018 - 08:45.

On this track and next one we will have a clear pictures what s the gap beetween Mercedes,Ferrari,Redbull,Haas,Renault,Mclaren.But everyone will bring updates so it will also depend on who will be the fastest to produce pieces and correlation beetwen factory and track...Mclaren had a very good correlation last year when you hit 95% it s a great result.My prediction is Mercedes and Ferrari will be close..in races not in qualy at least on Hamilton because Bottas made too much mistake for me.behind Redbull will be alone..and mclaren will close a little bit the gap I think  following by Renault and Haas...after that who care 

I didn't realise they'd put a figure on it, but it's one of the key things Peter Prod appears to have brought to McLaren. Their performance dip (can we call it that given it's lasted 5 years...? ) started in 2013 after they admitted that they didn't really understand why their 2012 car was fast, and then chose to go revolutionary instead of evolutionary.

I didn't realise they'd put a figure on it, but it's one of the key things Peter Prod appears to have brought to McLaren. Their performance dip (can we call it that given it's lasted 5 years...? ) started in 2013 after they admitted that they didn't really understand why their 2012 car was fast, and then chose to go revolutionary instead of evolutionary.

they choose to go on a easy set up car than a more downforce car...same road than Redbull...So in that road you can put more downforce at time.That s why the mclaren seems to be underdevelop...very clean car .

True, but Brawn's auspicious debut had mostly to do with their double diffuser.

McLaren can forget the midfield soon - Fernando Alonso
https://www.autospor...1-midfield-soon

 
I dunno if the team will make a big enough step forwards in Bahrain to be able to "forget" about the other midfield teams - seems a bit too much too soon... but they certainly are bullish about getting there sooner or later.

So what? The argument was that no team had ever done well when intergrating a new engine. Clearly wrong, and the DD would not have saved them if they got it wrong.

Let's try to calm down, shall we?

What I wrote, which you have quoted and therefore, one presumes, have read, was that your emendation of someone else's comment was true, but the reason for Brawn's auspicious debut was mostly their double diffuser. 

Was what I wrote not correct?

 

 

"We cannot forget that we decide to switch engines very late in the season so we had to redesign some of the parts that we already made at the rear end of the car," Alonso said.

I think we've all assumed this was the cause of the aero delay, but I think this is the first time anyone from the team has said it outright.

I think we've all assumed this was the cause of the aero delay, but I think this is the first time anyone from the team has said it outright.

Indeed. Wasn't someone such as Tim Goss quoted in January as saying that the PU switch had cost them about two weeks of extra design work, but they had caught up and got back on schedule?

Well I don't think they were lying.  Probably just optimistic about their schedule going forward.  But I think it was the heat issues that made them do the redesign.  

 

"Definitely it's going to be better and better [for McLaren]," Alonso said. "There's a lot of potential in the car still to unlock.

We are done

Well I don't think they were lying.  Probably just optimistic about their schedule going forward.  But I think it was the heat issues that made them do the redesign.  

Yes, it seemed that they thought they were on top of everything, but then the testing issues put then behind schedule.

Let's try to calm down, shall we?

What I wrote, which you have quoted and therefore, one presumes, have read, was that your emendation of someone else's comment was true, but the reason for Brawn's auspicious debut was mostly their double diffuser.

Was what I wrote not correct?

If i recall correctly, Nyck stated this weekend he has tested 3 updates for next GP and the choice is not made yet which one was going to Bahrain, but he made his recommendation.

By that, it's not logic at all to take upgrade time as correct if they don't even knew friday which they would take.

Edited by Maxioos, 02 April 2018 - 16:50.

familiar colours, no?

http://www.dell.com/nl-be

(dutch pages, dunno how the others look)

May have been correct, but in context of the conversation it was irrelevant.

So what? The argument was that no team had ever done well when intergrating a new engine. Clearly wrong, and the DD would not have saved them if they got it wrong.

The Brawn car was designed by not one but two F1 teams. A conveniently forgotten detail every time this point is brought up. 

May have been correct, but in context of the conversation it was irrelevant.

GoranF1 was making the point that, relative to others, McLaren appear to have done in a short period of time a very good job of integrating a new PU into their chassis and getting a solid result first time out. You caviled at his observation. I tried to add context to it. If you think that is "irrelevant", c'est la vie.

Alonso´s and Zak´s words sounds good, more and better is coming #Believe

This update is gonna come over a period of 2-3 races. Let's see how much changes on the car visually. 

I hope this update does transform our season, we need it early. Cant wait for update spotting on Wednesday #believeInMcLaren

Going by the past I wouldn't expect to see that much on Wednesday/Thursday unless McLaren plan to run the update on both cars from the start of FP1.

But yeah, "we need it early". Or perhaps a better way to phrase it: by the time we run out of low hanging fruit we need to be quite close in performance else it will be hard to catch up further. In addition, the sooner we can get close the better chance we have of a lucky result that depends on race specific circumstances. If we get to the Spanish GP and are 1s or more behind all of the top 3 teams in qualifying (assuming normal quali) then it's probably going to be a long season unless there's still a lot of low hanging fruit and we can make big gains by (say) Hungary. As soon as we get that deep into the season resources will start switching to 2019 so things will become increasingly static from then on.

If we can get (on average) within 0.5s of any of the top 3 teams in qualifying by the Spanish GP and even closer by (say) Hungary then we have a reasonable chance of being in firing range of a good result purely on merit - eg qualifying on 3rd row, making up a place or two in the first lap and another place or two during the race (though such a set of results wouldn't happen very often).

The rumors seems to be about new floor and bardgeboards for McLaren in Bahrain.

We'll see what will make it to the MCL33 on Friday as I think they will run the cars back to back to compare and validate the upgrades. 

The rumors seems to be about new floor and bardgeboards for McLaren in Bahrain.

We'll see what will make it to the MCL33 on Friday as I think they will run the cars back to back to compare and validate the upgrades. 

i think floor was alreay there in Australia but they didn t put on the car because the lack of running in FP1 & 2 so they will evaluate it in Barhain.Bardgeboard is an area that is still very basic in the MCL33 but i think it will be more a Renault concept than a Redbull because of the air intake but who knows .

familiar colours, no?

http://www.dell.com/nl-be

 

(dutch pages, dunno how the others look)

Definitely, wonder if the Dell branding on the car may be about to get more prominent

New Floor is only logical if the introduce new Bargeboards. If these really are dramatically different the whole Airflow Around the Car to the Diffusor is changed, thus needing a revised Floor to adapt to that.

Edited by Pumpkinz, 03 April 2018 - 08:36.

i think floor was alreay there in Australia but they didn t put on the car because the lack of running in FP1 & 2 so they will evaluate it in Barhain.Bardgeboard is an area that is still very basic in the MCL33 but i think it will be more a Renault concept than a Redbull because of the air intake but who knows .

Actually McLaren MCL33 had updated turning vanes of the diffuser in Australia. When they talk about new floor I imagine the front part of the floor also being updated, not only the diffuser. But let's wait and see there's nothing confirmed. 

Edited by argiriano, 03 April 2018 - 08:42.

So what? The argument was that no team had ever done well when intergrating a new engine. Clearly wrong, and the DD would not have saved them if they got it wrong.

Things to remember about 2009 is that it was the start of a new "narrow car / KERS / slicks" era so everybody had to integrate a new type of engine into a new type of chassis. Whereas in 2018 there is a lot of rules stability so if you are one of the teams changing a PU, that is going to be a disadvantage versus those who aren't. 

Things to remember about 2009 is that it was the start of a new "narrow car / KERS / slicks" era so everybody had to integrate a new type of engine into a new type of chassis. Whereas in 2018 there is a lot of rules stability so if you are one of the teams changing a PU, that is going to be a disadvantage versus those who aren't. 

Indeed, quite right. Also noting that Brawn didn't even integrate KERS into their package, they ditched it completely, for simplicity. Thus leaving the majority of other front-running teams to struggle half the year with it's implementation. So in that sense they had an easier time with packaging than almost everyone else that year. 

Back then, they had cooling in the sidepods for the ICE. Now they have cooling all over the place for the ICE, the MGU-H, MGU-K, Control Electronics, Battery pack... And all the V8s were more or less the same shape and size. Packaging was similar after years of convergence. They sat about the same place in the car. There was none of this is-the-turbo-at-the-front-in-the-middle-or-hanging-out-the-back-of-the-vee business which moves the whole block forwards or backwards. 

In contrast, McLaren had a very complex job to do in a very small amount of time. So, albeit with the benefit of hindsight, turning up and testing and Melbourne with an under-cooked car should come as no surprise. But the car will soon be done cooking, hence the bullishness from all involved. 

From Autosport Plus: 

It will need a bit of divine intervention for McLaren to get on the podium this year. Don't get me wrong, it's not impossible and as Sebastian Vettel showed in Melbourne luck still plays a big part in the end result. What we have to remember is that the McLaren of today is not the McLaren of the past. It is now just another F1 team, just like the others that are fighting for that best of the rest position of fourth in the constructors' championship.

Is this a fair assesment? Is Mclaren 'just another F1 team'? Surely, their resources are still that of a topteam, unlike f. ex. Force India, Torro Rosso, Sauber, (Williams).

From Autosport Plus: 

 

It will need a bit of divine intervention for McLaren to get on the podium this year. Don't get me wrong, it's not impossible and as Sebastian Vettel showed in Melbourne luck still plays a big part in the end result. What we have to remember is that the McLaren of today is not the McLaren of the past. It is now just another F1 team, just like the others that are fighting for that best of the rest position of fourth in the constructors' championship.

 

Is this a fair assesment? Is Mclaren 'just another F1 team'? Surely, their resources are still that of a topteam, unlike f. ex. Force India, Torro Rosso, Sauber, (Williams).

Nah, Ferrari or McLaren won't ever be "just anoterh F1 team". Their history is too rich and too meaningful. 

Is Liverpool "just another football club" because they didn't win the title in the past 27 years? Of course not. Chapmans Lotus team is out of F1 for a long, long time, but Lotus will never be "just another F1 team". You can't take their legacy away from McLaren. 

We are done

Who locked that potential away? Such a standard cliche answer from Alonso.

Having watched several 'behind the scenes' of F1 factories, I would say Mclaren's infrastructure is the most impressive... 

From Autosport Plus: 
 
It will need a bit of divine intervention for McLaren to get on the podium this year. Don't get me wrong, it's not impossible and as Sebastian Vettel showed in Melbourne luck still plays a big part in the end result. What we have to remember is that the McLaren of today is not the McLaren of the past. It is now just another F1 team, just like the others that are fighting for that best of the rest position of fourth in the constructors' championship.
 
Is this a fair assesment? Is Mclaren 'just another F1 team'? Surely, their resources are still that of a topteam, unlike f. ex. Force India, Torro Rosso, Sauber, (Williams).

 
Short answer: no
 
Gary's assessment of our chances of scoring a podium are based on the assumption that nothing much will change from Melbourne. I'm quite confident that's wrong but the only way to find out how wrong it is is to wait and see.

PS With regards to possible upgrades for Bahrain discussed in many posts above, don't assume that all changes will be visible. Part of upgrade package was suspension. I've not heard anything about that happening at Melbourne so there's a good chance it'll arrive at Bahrain or China. Anything that improves traction (particularly through slow/medium corners) would be very welcome at Bahrain.

We are done

From Autosport Plus: 

 

It will need a bit of divine intervention for McLaren to get on the podium this year. Don't get me wrong, it's not impossible and as Sebastian Vettel showed in Melbourne luck still plays a big part in the end result. What we have to remember is that the McLaren of today is not the McLaren of the past. It is now just another F1 team, just like the others that are fighting for that best of the rest position of fourth in the constructors' championship.

 

Is this a fair assesment? Is Mclaren 'just another F1 team'? Surely, their resources are still that of a topteam, unlike f. ex. Force India, Torro Rosso, Sauber, (Williams).

And now back in the game!

Gary - I think the fact that the MCL33 forum thread is on page 50 of PART 2 after only 1 race is one reason that McLaren aren't "just another F1 team"

I bet on Alonso finishing 3rd on Sunday. Something tells me it will be a crazy race (and that 2018 will be a crazy season). We shall wait and see.

From Autosport Plus: 

 

It will need a bit of divine intervention for McLaren to get on the podium this year. Don't get me wrong, it's not impossible and as Sebastian Vettel showed in Melbourne luck still plays a big part in the end result. What we have to remember is that the McLaren of today is not the McLaren of the past. It is now just another F1 team, just like the others that are fighting for that best of the rest position of fourth in the constructors' championship.

 

Is this a fair assesment? Is Mclaren 'just another F1 team'? Surely, their resources are still that of a topteam, unlike f. ex. Force India, Torro Rosso, Sauber, (Williams).

I agree with the other posters which say it's not a fair assessment, HOWEVER I also don't agree they have the resources of a top team now. They have considerably less resources than the top 3, similar to Renault. So they have the resources of a front-midfield team. 

% 

In normal circumstances a podium will probably be very difficult however in rain or in high attrition race (or some start collision similar to Singapore last season) it's definitely possible. I wouldn't call that a divine intervention, it's normal Formula 1, it's racing.

From Autosport Plus: 

 

It will need a bit of divine intervention for McLaren to get on the podium this year. Don't get me wrong, it's not impossible and as Sebastian Vettel showed in Melbourne luck still plays a big part in the end result. What we have to remember is that the McLaren of today is not the McLaren of the past. It is now just another F1 team, just like the others that are fighting for that best of the rest position of fourth in the constructors' championship.

 

Is this a fair assesment? Is Mclaren 'just another F1 team'? Surely, their resources are still that of a topteam, unlike f. ex. Force India, Torro Rosso, Sauber, (Williams).

Regarding resources, it depends on what you mean by "top team".

Based on "informed" (but not necessarily quite accurate) reckonings of teams' budgets, it appears that Merc and Ferrari are in a spending league of their own; then RBR; then McLaren slightly ahead of Renault at roughly half the Merc level; and all the other five teams are supposedly at about half of McLaren's and Renault's level.

Money spent and "resources" are not quite the same thing, and then there is efficiency/waste not to mention talent and effective teamwork, but in the present formula it is clear that it takes a humongous budget to win.

I think that McLaren (as well as several other teams) are trying to do the best they can until a new formula is created for 2021, in the hope that the new formula will allow a more level playing field and true competition that will be less dependent on the subsidy of just a few mega-rich global corporations.

In normal circumstances a podium will probably be very difficult however in rain or in high attrition race (or some start collision similar to Singapore last season) it's definitely possible. I wouldn't call that a divine intervention, it's normal Formula 1, it's racing.

I think even without this it's possible to qualify in top 6, then Alonso known for good starts and with perfect strategy it might be enough. Not at this stage of the season however.

From Autosport Plus:

It will need a bit of divine intervention for McLaren to get on the podium this year. Don't get me wrong, it's not impossible and as Sebastian Vettel showed in Melbourne luck still plays a big part in the end result. What we have to remember is that the McLaren of today is not the McLaren of the past. It is now just another F1 team, just like the others that are fighting for that best of the rest position of fourth in the constructors' championship.

Is this a fair assesment? Is Mclaren 'just another F1 team'? Surely, their resources are still that of a topteam, unlike f. ex. Force India, Torro Rosso, Sauber, (Williams).

If Alonso was ever in a postition to defend a P3 spot this year there is no way he would give it up.

If they can pull Red Bull in - then Podiums will happen, just as they have for Red Bull. I agree that it will take special circumstances - cars not finishing, crashes or wacky weather - but podiums are certainly on the cards as long as they can move forward a chunk.