3409 replies to this topic

[trogggy]

The willingness to generalize seems obvious in that statement of yours.

How can I be generalizing? It's a statement about your variable standards of proof. Nothing to do with Lewis - to do with your statement about tifosiMac.

Edited by trogggy, 10 February 2011 - 14:18.

[as65p]

I'm interested in what you see as the evidence for a pressure induced bad drive. Is it simply the McLaren finishing lower down the order than usual?

Isn't it obvious, especially for a fan? Hamilton seemed more cautious than usual, content with cruising to 4th or 5th. Something which in every other interview he verbally declares as totally beneath him.

For very understandable reasons mind you, with the WDC at stake and the season before in mind. Understandable, but also the sign of someone susceptible to pressure. And when, accidentically, the heat turned up courtesy of the sudden rain shower, Hamilton couldn't respond as required but instead made mistakes and stumbled over the line, just. Very reminiscent of Schumacher 2003, BTW.

And it's not the only time for Hamilton the mistakes creep in when the pressure get's up, far from it. From my POV there's a clear pattern, but obviously that notion is fought vigorously by some supporters (not necessarily you).

[SennaHolic]

Guess that's why Moss, Amon and G Villeneuve get no respect, compared with, er, D Hill for example...

Yeah, I'm sure they were racing for respect and not for being called world champion before their name.

Alonso leads Hamilton by 1 championship as of today, but I like to look at the races where both had everything on the line, the most pressure to perform, I think those are two races, Brazil 2007, and Abu-Yaba-Daba-Doo 2010. In 2007 Luisito rolled snake eyes, while in 2010 Don Fernando de la Mancha fell off his horse. I guess in this view they are tied.

[trogggy]

Isn't it obvious, especially for a fan? Hamilton seemed more cautious than usual, content with cruising to 4th or 5th. Something which in every other interview he verbally declares as totally beneath him.

For very understandable reasons mind you, with the WDC at stake and the season before in mind. Understandable, but also the sign of someone susceptible to pressure.

It is?
Maybe you're reading too much into it?
Maybe you think Alonso would have gone for the win rather than played the percentages?
Or was the last race of 2010 different somehow?

Edited by trogggy, 10 February 2011 - 14:21.

[as65p]

How can I be generalizing? It's a statement about your variable standards of proof.

It's an unspecific statement which by nature is impossibe to discuss. What if I answer no, you're wrong. That's equally constructive.

You seem very reluctant to clarify your POV in a debate, which I find a bit strange.

[as65p]

Or was the last race of 2010 different somehow?

Was it not different somehow?

[trogggy]

It's an unspecific statement which by nature is impossibe to discuss. What if I answer no, you're wrong. That's equally constructive.

You could say 'No, give me an example.'

You seem very reluctant to clarify your POV in a debate, which I find a bit strange.

I think you like arguing with fundamentalist Hamilton fans, and you're uncomfortable when someone who's interested but not emotionally involved in the argument points out your own inconsistencies, and rose-coloured views of particular events. It makes you go all huffy.
Can we get back to 2007 now please?

[trogggy]

Was it not different somehow?

Sure. It was different in an infinite number of ways. But you could make exactly the same arguments about Alonso succumbing to pressure, reacting to circumstances, not running the aggressive, brilliant sort of race that had put him in a position to win the wdc. I think it would be as daft as looking at Brazil '08 as evidence of Hamilton choking, but that's just my opinion.

[as65p]

You could say 'No, give me an example.'

I think you like arguing with fundamentalist Hamilton fans, and you're uncomfortable when someone who's interested but not emotionally involved in the argument points out your own inconsistencies, and rose-coloured views of particular events. It makes you go all huffy.
Can we get back to 2007 now please?

That's not what you did, pointing out something. Instead you made an unqualified, unspecific accusation. Like that:

Your claim of being interested but not emotionally involved seems not very credible.

Now let's go back to 2007, shall we?

[trogggy]

Your claim of being interested but not emotionally involved seems not very credible.

Based on what?

There. See how it works?

[tifosiMac]

Sure. It was different in an infinite number of ways. But you could make exactly the same arguments about Alonso succumbing to pressure, reacting to circumstances, not running the aggressive, brilliant sort of race that had put him in a position to win the wdc. I think it would be as daft as looking at Brazil '08 as evidence of Hamilton choking, but that's just my opinion.

Alonso's handling of Petrov was very similar in terms of playing it safe, but as we saw in Valencia when Hamilton passed the safety car illegally and was punished much later, Alonso was outraged on the radio and his driving in that race was obviously affected by the number of mistakes he made thereafter.

its becoming obvious that certain fans have an ideal that to be a great champion you need to have won by handling the pressure and producing no mistakes whatsoever towards the end of a season. Its been compared to Schuey 2003, and I personally can't think of a champion since who hasn't made errors which could argueably be labelled as done under pressure. Hamilton, Alonso, Raikkonen, Button, and Vettel have all won championships that have contained unforced errors which may have affected their WDC, but we seem to be confronted with a fixation on Hamilton only?

Edited by tifosiMac, 10 February 2011 - 14:46.

[Gareth]

Isn't it obvious, especially for a fan? Hamilton seemed more cautious than usual, content with cruising to 4th or 5th.

He seemed that way if you assume he had the car underneath him to fight for the win. The same circular logic that you criticise for arriving at the conclusion "the car must have been bad" (ie Hamilton normally = up front; at Brazil 08 he wasn't upfront; therefore at Brazil 08 the McLaren was bad) is at play here (ie McLaren normally = up front; at Brazil 08 it wasn't up front; therefore at Brazil 08 Hamilton was driving conservatively).

Both are, in the absence of other evidence, equally valid conclusions I think. Of course a combination of both could also be the case.

The other evidence I look at to detrmine which one it was, or in what proportions the mix is at, are:

1. Heikki's pace and finishing position - the gap was similar to usual between McLaren's two drivers, whilst it's possible Heikki underperformed to cancel out any narrowing of the gap from Hamilton's cautious approach, I think concluding that the Mac had an off track is the more likely explanation.

2. The pass on Fisi - that didn't "seem more cautious than usual" to me.

3. The error to let Vettel by - that definitely weighs towards the other side of the argument.

So I'm of the opinion that the majority of the seeming "underperformance" (relative to most other races that season) in the Hamilton/Mac combo that day came from the track not suiting the McLaren as well as others, with some part being Hamilton's driving being affected by pressure.

[undersquare]

Yeah, I'm sure they were racing for respect and not for being called world champion before their name.

Alonso leads Hamilton by 1 championship as of today, but I like to look at the races where both had everything on the line, the most pressure to perform, I think those are two races, Brazil 2007, and Abu-Yaba-Daba-Doo 2010. In 2007 Luisito rolled snake eyes, while in 2010 Don Fernando de la Mancha fell off his horse. I guess in this view they are tied.

Well that little point on no. of wdc's being all that matter was about what we should think of them. Though I'd guess some of them would rather have the respect than the wdc's, if they had to choose one or the other.

Schumi would choose the wdc's, evidently, I reckon he's at one end of the scale and the other drivers are some way along it. Moss at the other end, let's say.

[velgajski1]

Canada 2007 counts as one mistake for Alonso? Interesting as I clearly recall him falling off the road multiple times during that race, including several times in the same corner not to mention the final humiliation of being overtaken by Sato. Speaking of Japanese drivers in slower cars overtaking him, Kobayashi did it again in a Sauber in 2010. Weird.

Alonso is usually dismal in Canada, seems that Alonso fanboys forgot his 2008. Canada (but they sure remembered 'wood-eye').

[robefc]

He seemed that way if you assume he had the car underneath him to fight for the win. The same circular logic that you criticise for arriving at the conclusion "the car must have been bad" (ie Hamilton normally = up front; at Brazil 08 he wasn't upfront; therefore at Brazil 08 the McLaren was bad) is at play here (ie McLaren normally = up front; at Brazil 08 it wasn't up front; therefore at Brazil 08 Hamilton was driving conservatively).

The other issue is the amount of fuel they carried which dictated (to some extent) their starting position. Starting heavier was a disadvantage because the early stops took away the quid pro quo you get in the race, he then also lost places through conservatively timed pit stops

Basically I thought his driving was fine, although more conservative than usual (not sure how that could be a criticism given he's usually criticised for not playing the championship game), and the pass on fisi in the conditions was impresive.

He then made a mistake with vettel behind him true, that's not evidence of an all out bad day in my book.

He also thinks he was suffering from tyre wear and lasck of downforce

I was in fourth, I was comfortable there. I was just trying to bring the car home, trying to look after the gear shifts, trying to look after the tyres and manage everything. Towards the end it got quite tough because I went out with a huge fuel load. As you know, we use our tyres more than most in certain places and I was on a huge fuel load trying to look after these tyres.
"Towards the end of the run, I was keeping (Sebastian) Vettel at bay but then the weather got bad. We changed tyres but I had less downforce than other people – we were fastest on the straights but for the wet it was not perfect. But we worked very hard to keep him behind - and the last two laps were the toughest two laps of my entire career.

That's from the autosport archives, transcript of his (post race?) interview.

[Bonaventura]

If Button had edged Hamilton last year you'd be saying something similar.

It was more about, why does he use 20 posts if he could have said it in one sentence

[as65p]

So I'm of the opinion that the majority of the seeming "underperformance" (relative to most other races that season) in the Hamilton/Mac combo that day came from the track not suiting the McLaren as well as others, with some part being Hamilton's driving being affected by pressure.

Okay, fair enough. We don't want to go all nit-picky and fill another two pages arguing the exact percentage of each factor, I assume (hope)?

[tifosiMac]

So I'm of the opinion that the majority of the seeming "underperformance" (relative to most other races that season) in the Hamilton/Mac combo that day came from the track not suiting the McLaren as well as others, with some part being Hamilton's driving being affected by pressure.

I'd say thats a sensible analysis. A mixture of being conservative and a car the driver wasn't entirely happy with.

[as65p]

Alonso is usually dismal in Canada, seems that Alonso fanboys forgot his 2008. Canada (but they sure remembered 'wood-eye').

Well, I guess that's true. Canada appears to be about Alonsos worst track, and accidentically Hamiltons strongest at the same time.

[Fontainebleau]

If you actually watched those races you would see that Renault was in the midfield wagon at start, and equal to best cars on grid at end of the season. Clearly better than rest of the field driver would be at least 3rd in WDC given those conditions.

If you actually wathced the pre-season interviews you'd see that Alonso was quite confident of being able to pull the title challenge with that car, but he failed at doing so. Not saying he didnt drove great in the end of 2008., but he had some bad moves at the start of season which cost him quite a bit of points.

Let me ask you - do you really think there is a head and shoulders better than the rest driver in current F1? And if that is Alonso why did he fail to win WDC titles in last 4 seasons - in spite of having WDC capable car in 2.

You must be joking... Which points did Alonso lose through "bad moves" at the start of the season? And how on earth did you expect him to compensate the advantage that McLaren, Ferrari and BMW had on the Renault? 3rd WDC? It would have been a miracle, and yet I have the feeling that you would not have been too appreciative of that title either, seeing how easily you dismiss what team directors, drivers and fans in general considered a fantastic season by a driver with inferior equipment

As for pre-season race interviews - Alonso and Renault apparently had high expectations on the R29. Does that turn the R-29 into a "class of the field" car, or should we just say that without references from the other teams, the typical answer from a WCC-winning team is "we are feeling positive"?

[AlanWake]

Well, I guess that's true. Canada appears to be about Alonsos worst track, and accidentically Hamiltons strongest at the same time.

Canada is not one of the best tracks of Alonso if we look at his past results, but he has always been very fast there, you can't deny that. He didn't get the results he should due to mistakes or reliability problems.

I'd say Alonso's best tracks are Malaysia, Hungary, Monza and especially Singapore.

[as65p]

Canada is not one of the best tracks of Alonso if we look at his past results, but he has always been very fast there, you can't deny that. He didn't get the results he should due to mistakes or reliability problems.

I'd say Alonso's best tracks are Malaysia, Hungary, Monza and especially Singapore.

Well, it's complaining on a very high level. To say it's Alonsos worst track doen't mean he can't win there, or isn't fast. Just not quite as convincing as on other tracks, so far in his career. Every driver has some tracks where he usually is a bit better than his average, and other tracks where he's usually a bit worse. And IMO Canada falls into the latter category for Alonso, that's all I meant to say.

[Gareth]

Okay, fair enough. We don't want to go all nit-picky and fill another two pages arguing the exact percentage of each factor, I assume (hope)? ;)

Cool, so that's agreement reached ... on one race ... in 2008 ...

Now to do that for the entire season of 2007?

[Fontainebleau]

Cool, so that's agreement reached ... on one race ... in 2008 ...

Now to do that for the entire season of 2007?

Don't give up just yet... we are only on page 14!

[velgajski1]

You must be joking... Which points did Alonso lose through "bad moves" at the start of the season? And how on earth did you expect him to compensate the advantage that McLaren, Ferrari and BMW had on the Renault? 3rd WDC? It would have been a miracle, and yet I have the feeling that you would not have been too appreciative of that title either, seeing how easily you dismiss what team directors, drivers and fans in general considered a fantastic season by a driver with inferior equipment ;)

As for pre-season race interviews - Alonso and Renault apparently had high expectations on the R29. Does that turn the R-29 into a "class of the field" car, or should we just say that without references from the other teams, the typical answer from a WCC-winning team is "we are feeling positive"?

You didn't even read my post! I said 3rd in WDC table, not winning 3rd WDC (eventhough - a perfectly driven season in 2008. Renault would win the title in 2008. - tricky part is that no one ever drove a perfect season, especially not when a car is not best on grid)

His biggest error is Canada 08 where he could be on podium at least if he didnt crash. - 6 points
He could have beaten Piquet in Silverstone 08 - 5 points (2nd place instead of 6th)
He had a few minor blunders in very early season. If he had 4th best car it would mean that an exceptional driver (by far best on grid) would always be at least 7th (but better on most occasions as there is always someone from top teams having DNF or weak race) - which Alonso failed to do - another 10 points at least here.

If you actually look at the table - it would have placed him comfortably into 3rd place on table. That is - if he drove all season the way he drove last third of season (or last third of 2010. season)

Now, I'm not trying to bring Alonso down for this, or saying that he sucks, or even saying that he didnt drove a really good season - I'm just saying he is not head and shoulders above the rest of the drivers on grid. He makes the difference in relation to mid-field (IMHO, in 2008. Renault was overall no better than Toyota - but Alonso made the difference there), but there's no indication that he is better (or worse) than Hamilton.

Only indications we currently have are that
1. Alonso has 2 titles compared to Hamiltons 1 (but in more than double season count)
2. Hamilton beat Alonso in same car (but, they finished equal on points)

Both arguments actually show that those two so far don't differ much in terms of ability/success.

Another cool thing is 2010. season where they both failed to win WDC in a car that was WDC capable - but they simply could not be on their best throughout the season - another proof that there is very little between them.

Edited by velgajski1, 11 February 2011 - 08:01.

[Bleu]

Of the circuits that have been in the calendar for all last six years, Alonso has failed to win only in Istanbul and Interlagos. And in the latter he has clinched two titles anyway. No win at Spa either but it wasn't in the calendar in 2006.

Hamilton has now four years in F1. Without win in Sakhir, Sepang, Barcelona, Monza and Interlagos, when counting only circuits used every year.

Edited by Bleu, 11 February 2011 - 09:11.

[Fontainebleau]

You didn't even read my post! I said 3rd in WDC table, not winning 3rd WDC (eventhough - a perfectly driven season in 2008. Renault would win the title in 2008. - tricky part is that no one ever drove a perfect season, especially not when a car is not best on grid)

I promise that I did read your post! But I missed the point, it seems

Now, I'm not trying to bring Alonso down for this, or saying that he sucks, or even saying that he didnt drove a really good season - I'm just saying he is not head and shoulders above the rest of the drivers on grid. He makes the difference in relation to mid-field (IMHO, in 2008. Renault was overall no better than Toyota - but Alonso made the difference there), but there's no indication that he is better (or worse) than Hamilton.

Only indications we currently have are that
1. Alonso has 2 titles compared to Hamiltons 1 (but in more than double season count)
2. Hamilton beat Alonso in same car (but, they finished equal on points)

Both arguments actually show that those two so far don't differ much in terms of ability/success.

Another cool thing is 2010. season where they both failed to win WDC in a car that was WDC capable - but they simply could not be on their best throughout the season - another proof that there is very little between them.

I do think that Alonso is better than Hamilton, but I agree that there isn't a world of difference between them - and in all fairness, there is a group of drivers who could all be considered to be within striking distance of each other, which is great for us fans!

Edited by Fontainebleau, 15 February 2011 - 11:35.

[Frankbullitt]

Its crazy to think that this argument still goes on. To me they are 2 fine drivers, but I do give the edge to Alonso, some of his drives last year were fantastic. Lewis is still amazing as well, F1 really has some of the best drivers of all time in it right now, but to just compare these 2 is a bit crazy, its been proven anyway that while he was at McLaren, Fernando had issues with the management, not Lewis.

[Bonaventura]

Its crazy to think that this argument still goes on. To me they are 2 fine drivers, but I do give the edge to Alonso, some of his drives last year were fantastic. Lewis is still amazing as well, F1 really has some of the best drivers of all time in it right now, but to just compare these 2 is a bit crazy, its been proven anyway that while he was at McLaren, Fernando had issues with the management, not Lewis.

I won't give the edge to Alonso, for me he made too much mistakes over the last 4 years
but that is subjective

[Frankbullitt]

I won't give the edge to Alonso, for me he made too much mistakes over the last 4 years
but that is subjective

Well i wouldnt say mistakes are subjective, but I would have said that Lewis has made more mistakes myself.

[Fontainebleau]

I won't give the edge to Alonso, for me he made too much mistakes over the last 4 years
but that is subjective

And it is good that there is discrepance, it gives us one more excuse to spend the off-season period talking passionately about F1 instead of having to look for other hobbies to keep us entertained

[Rinehart]

Its crazy to think that this argument still goes on. To me they are 2 fine drivers, but I do give the edge to Alonso, some of his drives last year were fantastic. Lewis is still amazing as well, F1 really has some of the best drivers of all time in it right now, but to just compare these 2 is a bit crazy, its been proven anyway that while he was at McLaren, Fernando had issues with the management, not Lewis.

The very fact that Alonso has issues with the management OF HIS OWN MAKING, is one of, if not the main reasons why I certainly don't think he's the best. As a package he is just way too temperamental and embroiled in too much controversy (spygate, crashgate). Bad for a team I reckon. Remember, he fell out with Renault as well. In the fullness of time he will fall out with Luca too I bet, he'll do a Prost.

[tifosiMac]

The very fact that Alonso has issues with the management OF HIS OWN MAKING, is one of, if not the main reasons why I certainly don't think he's the best.

I think the major difference between Lewis and Fernando in situations where teammates beat them on occasion is how they channel their frustration. I remember Martin Whitmarsh being interviewed last season and questioned about Jenson's wins early in the season and he mentioned that Lewis is incredibly hard on himself when he loses, even going to the extent of not speaking to people in the team for a couple of days afterwards due to his feeling of failure. Fernando from what I have seen tends to hit out in interviews at rivals, and in his Renault days accused his team of not supporting him during 2006. I think you can put it down to two very different temperaments. They are still very fast, very competitive and very good at what they do but I think where Lewis enjoys the challenge of being pushed by a teammate, Fernando I feel would rather that challenge come from a rival team with his teammate supporting his bid for the whole season.

[Fontainebleau]

I think the major difference between Lewis and Fernando in situations where teammates beat them on occasion is how they channel their frustration. I remember Martin Whitmarsh being interviewed last season and questioned about Jenson's wins early in the season and he mentioned that Lewis is incredibly hard on himself when he loses, even going to the extent of not speaking to people in the team for a couple of days afterwards due to his feeling of failure. Fernando from what I have seen tends to hit out in interviews at rivals, and in his Renault days accused his team of not supporting him during 2006. I think you can put it down to two very different temperaments. They are still very fast, very competitive and very good at what they do but I think where Lewis enjoys the challenge of being pushed by a teammate, Fernando I feel would rather that challenge come from a rival team with his teammate supporting his bid for the whole season.

Well, it would seem that Hamilton does not enjoy the challenge either if he really stops talking to people in the team for a couple of days! Honestly, I doubt any of the drivers takes it easy with his teammate, and I fully understand why.

Anyway, in the same interview that we were discussing before Alonso made a comment about how the whole thing about him having problems with his teammates is an exaggeration. I need to run into a meeting, but I will see if I can translate the interview this evening and post it here, it was quite interesting. But please bear with me because it was a very long one too!

[robefc]

The very fact that Alonso has issues with the management OF HIS OWN MAKING, is one of, if not the main reasons why I certainly don't think he's the best. As a package he is just way too temperamental and embroiled in too much controversy (spygate, crashgate). Bad for a team I reckon. Remember, he fell out with Renault as well. In the fullness of time he will fall out with Luca too I bet, he'll do a Prost.

Who do you think is the best Rhinehart? (you know what I'm hoping you'll say!)

[tifosiMac]

Well, it would seem that Hamilton does not enjoy the challenge either if he really stops talking to people in the team for a couple of days! Honestly, I doubt any of the drivers takes it easy with his teammate, and I fully understand why.

I made that point quite clear and you may have missed the part where I was trying to get across that Hamilton tends to blame his own performance rather than blaiming the team or his teammate.

[Buttoneer]

I've moved the 'Hamilton is fastest' chat to the dedicated thread for that interview, since the remit for this one is predominantly 2007 discussion and also to avoid it being discussed across multiple threads.

Please add any further comments you might have to that thread.

http://forums.autosp...howtopic=142676

[ArtShelley]

All this "Alonso was victimised by McLaren in 2007" is bah humbug. I don't know of any F1 insider, let alone a senior one, that supports this theory. In contrast we have, not only the senior McLaren figures which the Alonsophiles will excuse away as biased, saying there was equality; but we also have senior Renault staff publicly stating that Alonso has previously had problems when beaten by a team mate and he couldn't handle being matched, let alone beaten by Hamilton. These Renault staff have gone on to express their opinion that McLaren do indeed give their drivers equal opportunity and that Alonso should have stayed at McLaren. Pedro de la Rosa, fellow Spaniard who rates Alonso highly, has also said that Alonso should have stayed at McLaren. All these people saying that poor widdle Alonso should have stayed even though big bad Mcwaren treats him oh so bad?

PS. Oh yeah, you know I've got the links referencing the above.

[puxanando]

All this "Alonso was victimised by McLaren in 2007" is bah humbug.

You have been there all the time in McLaren box??

English boss wanted a english World-champion, but didn't with the spaniard in the team.

Singular thinks now are happens in RBR and MGP. In Mclaren is more difficult, because there are two british guys.

[Maranello99]

All this "Alonso was victimised by McLaren in 2007" is bah humbug. I don't know of any F1 insider, let alone a senior one, that supports this theory. In contrast we have, not only the senior McLaren figures which the Alonsophiles will excuse away as biased, saying there was equality; but we also have senior Renault staff publicly stating that Alonso has previously had problems when beaten by a team mate and he couldn't handle being matched, let alone beaten by Hamilton. These Renault staff have gone on to express their opinion that McLaren do indeed give their drivers equal opportunity and that Alonso should have stayed at McLaren. Pedro de la Rosa, fellow Spaniard who rates Alonso highly, has also said that Alonso should have stayed at McLaren. All these people saying that poor widdle Alonso should have stayed even though big bad Mcwaren treats him oh so bad?

PS. Oh yeah, you know I've got the links referencing the above.

Alonso finished 2007 one point behind the WDC driver who a) simply had a better car and b) received help from his teammate in the form of crucial race win.
In the process, he beat one driver with a better car (Massa) and finished level on points with his teammate (the best prepared -ever rookie and one of the greatest talents of the past 10 or 20 years, a guy who won the WDC the year later).

It's true that Alonso could have managed his relationship with McLaren better but his results were absolutely acceptable, very good in fact.

[ArtShelley]

Alonso finished 2007 one point behind the WDC driver who a) simply had a better car and b) received help from his teammate in the form of crucial race win.
In the process, he beat one driver with a better car (Massa) and finished level on points with his teammate (the best prepared -ever rookie and one of the greatest talents of the past 10 or 20 years, a guy who won the WDC the year later).

It's true that Alonso could have managed his relationship with McLaren better but his results were absolutely acceptable, very good in fact.

Agreed

[ArtShelley]

You have been there all the time in McLaren box??

English boss wanted a english World-champion, but didn't with the spaniard in the team.

Singular thinks now are happens in RBR and MGP. In Mclaren is more difficult, because there are two british guys.

Then why pay big $$$$$$$$$ for the 2 x WDC? He didn't have to put the fast Spaniard in the car, he could have instead put that slow Spaniard PdlR in.

Yes throw common sense out the window for good old fashioned nationalism.

[as65p]

I made that point quite clear and you may have missed the part where I was trying to get across that Hamilton tends to blame his own performance rather than blaiming the team or his teammate.

Hmm, I think taking a drivers sulking and not talking to the team for a couple of days as a sign that he blames himself is a wee bit euphemistic.

[ArtShelley]

Hmm, I think taking a drivers sulking and not talking to the team for a couple of days as a sign that he blames himself is a wee bit euphemistic.

His earlier post did actually state:

I remember Martin Whitmarsh being interviewed last season....and he mentioned that Lewis is incredibly hard on himself when he loses, even going to the extent of not speaking to people in the team for a couple of days afterwards due to his feeling of failure.

[fabr68]

Then why pay big $$$$$$$$$ for the 2 x WDC? He didn't have to put the fast Spaniard in the car, he could have instead put that slow Spaniard PdlR in.

Yes throw common sense out the window for good old fashioned nationalism.

That is a million dollar question. Why Ron confessed Mclaren were racing against Alonso instead of Raikkonen at China in 2007 is also a great unknown.

I think that Mclaren realized they made a mistake hiring a 2xWDC once they realized that Hamilton was so good.

Both Mclaren and Alonso have said they could have handled the 2007 relationship a lot better. I don't understand why some people are fixated to putting all the blame on one or the other. They both have a lot of blame to share.

[as65p]

Then why pay big $$$$$$$$$ for the 2 x WDC? He didn't have to put the fast Spaniard in the car, he could have instead put that slow Spaniard PdlR in.

You know perfectly well that nobody could have predicted how good Hamilton would turn out. Guess with which driver Hamilton competed for the race seat in 2007? That's right "slow spaniard" PdlR. That's how much trust McLaren had in him before his first race. Only once it became apparent what potential he had and the opportunity arose to create a rookie champion discovered, grown and perfected completely inside the company, everything changed.

[puxanando]

You know perfectly well that nobody could have predicted how good Hamilton would turn out. Guess with which driver Hamilton competed for the race seat in 2007? That's right "slow spaniard" PdlR. That's how much trust McLaren had in him before his first race. Only once it became apparent what potential he had and the opportunity arose to create a rookie champion discovered, grown and perfected completely inside the company, everything changed.

Everything changed, also the respect with the spanish two-title champion driver! And Alonso come from the south, here we are more sensitive than up there.....

[as65p]

His earlier post did actually state:

And? Even with your underlines, my reply remains the same.

[undersquare]

That is a million dollar question. Why Ron confessed Mclaren were racing against Alonso instead of Raikkonen at China in 2007 is also a great unknown.

I think that Mclaren realized they made a mistake hiring a 2xWDC once they realized that Hamilton was so good.

Both Mclaren and Alonso have said they could have handled the 2007 relationship a lot better. I don't understand why some people are fixated to putting all the blame on one or the other. They both have a lot of blame to share.

Do you really think that after all that went on - FA being publicly rude to Ron, Hungary, spygate in which Fernando vindictively told Bernie about the emails, refused to attend the hearings and even had lunch with Max - that the team ought to have wanted Alonso to beat Hamilton? Or not minded? That's absurd.

This was China, OK? Penultimate race. Not exactly Australia.

The puzzle is why Ron gave him a car at all, never mind one good enough so they had to race him...

[P123]

You know perfectly well that nobody could have predicted how good Hamilton would turn out. Guess with which driver Hamilton competed for the race seat in 2007? That's right "slow spaniard" PdlR. That's how much trust McLaren had in him before his first race. Only once it became apparent what potential he had and the opportunity arose to create a rookie champion discovered, grown and perfected completely inside the company, everything changed.

The only thing that changed was that Hamilton was able to fight Alonso on pace and consistency, ably assisted by Alonsos's first corner errors in Spain and Canada, which made it very difficult for McLaren to keep Hamilton pegged as the rookie who would support Alonso (like in Malaysia), particularly as he was ahead of FA in the WDC at mid-season. All parties could have done things differently for a better outcome. All parties have admitted as such.