327 replies to this topic

[RobCompton]

Some Belmont photos for you Rob....

all October 11 1992 Brands Hatch





And these from August 8 1993 at Brands

Fabulous! Now, sports quiz! Who were the drivers?
IIRC, Mark Hales and Chris Hodgetts are on the list, but who else piloted the Belmont in '92 & '93.

Rob.

[Tim Wilkinson]

'92 - Derek Hales and Peter Ashton. The '93 appearance isn't listed in the programme - must have been a late entry.

Edited by Tim Wilkinson, 12 November 2009 - 20:14.

[simonlewisbooks]

I can't make out what's on the side window in the lower shot I'm afraid.

[TonyS]

I thought Ian Connell co-drove the car for a season. He was sponsored by some one but can't remember the name,... grrr

I have a 94 programme with an Astra Belmont with a 2000cc Turbo in with Peter Wright racing it, number 27, so possibly the later pictures.

[Tim Wilkinson]

Connell and Trevor Griffiths drove in '91 - sponsored by Welcome Break. It had a lot of teething troubles; in fact I'm not sure it's been properly sorted to this day - Rob doesn't seem to have had much luck with it, either.

Edited by Tim Wilkinson, 12 November 2009 - 22:22.

[simonlewisbooks]

On the subject of entries not in the programme I just found the negs for Donington 3rd June 1990 and not mentioned in the programme is this rather standard looking Rover....


Any ideas?


I mentioned an ex Brisca F1 stock car driver in an earlier post - I tracked him down - Brian Powles, with this 7 litre Sierra he shared with Don Manley. Again this is Donington in June 1990.
What happened to the car? Powles was a builder of big-block Chevy's in F1 so I assume one was the motive power for the Sierra.

[Gregor Marshall]

And more from Brands Oct 11 1992


The Supra leading otherw including what looks like the Vauxhall Astra Mk1 with Manta 400 engine of Liles & Jackson

Do you mean the Opel Manta - Stars & Stripes?

[RobCompton]

Connell and Trevor Griffiths drove in '91 - sponsored by Welcome Break. It had a lot of teething troubles; in fact I'm not sure it's been properly sorted to this day - Rob doesn't seem to have had much luck with it, either.

Trevor owned the car originally and built it/had it built with Empress. Ian's backing by Welcome Break provided funds to run it for 1991.

However, the choice of engine (Phase IV) Manta 400 was the big mistake. While it was superbly powerful and very quick, the engine was described as a grenade by some, pressing the starter button was like pulling the pin, and the fuse was variable in length. Well it was a Rallysprint spec lump! And those events were usually no more tha 25-30 stage miles. Thundersaloon races of that era were 75 miles.

For 1992 it had a Cosworth BDX, which was pretty well reliable, but not as powerful.

Peter Wright bought it in '93 for the 94 season, and fitted a Cosworth YB, sharing it with Rob Shepherd. The engine "only" had 450hp tops, and that was the main issue with the car - lack of power compared to the big bangers at the front.

Matthew Mortlock did work on the car for Peter, so the spec did change a bit from it's original build.

The ownership between Peter and me is a little sketchy, I know that it went through the hands of Tony Brass, before Andrew Sturry bought it with the intention of using it as a trackday car. He did a lot of restoration work on the chassis, replacing all of the rose joints with good quality joints, and a fair bit of tidying up of rusty bits. When he lost the use of his lock-up, he stood it in his garden for a while, then advertised it in Motoring News. I got him out of bed first thing in the morning and bought it on the spot.

I remembered Richard Salisbury at Empress saying that they built it with the idea that it could run a Pontiac 400ci V8 (which was the stock-block alloy unit easily available at the time). I sourced a pukka alloy block Chevy V8 from the 'States, with the right amount of power, and at the right price, then set about fitting it.

There were some issues with the engine and our low calorie fuel, which have now been resolved, including a cracked cylinder head, and a few minor niggles.
My first gearbox was well worn, and that's been replaced with a brand new unit. And the rear axle was the first thing to break - so that was replaced.

I now find a few issues with the front suspension (worn components that keep coming loose), and brake balance, so I have a few jobs to do over winter.

I've considered doing major surgery to change the front end setup to accommodate the V8 better, but that would "destroy" the original car in my opinion, so I have considered starting fresh with "Son of Harry".

I've also thought about changing the engine to a LS series as they are more compact, and wouldn't need the "godzilla conversion" to the bonnet. Or.... fit throttle-body fuel injection, which would allow me to reduce the size of the lump, but would release another 100hp ish.;)

The car is a bit of a labour of love, I've always wanted in (or one like it) from the day that Empress built it. I may still have scars on my legs from the weld splatter when they got me to try out the pedal box position..... that'll do.... zzzzzzzzzzzap! OUCH! Damn you mig welder!

I'm running it in the Aston Martin Owners Club's Super GT series. A home for all sorts of "renegade" cars, and the AMOC guys love it because of it's "quart in a pint pot" style.

Rob.

[mdswat]

does anyone know where the term "big banger" came from?

the old group c cars were given the same name in australia, curious to see if it was coincidence or the term was taken from one country or the other.

[simonlewisbooks]

Do you mean the Opel Manta - Stars & Stripes?

No, the white car in front of it (51) . It's always listed in programmes as a Vauxhall Astra but ran with Opel badges so should have been entered as a Kadett I guess?

I found a much better shot of the car at Donington (June 90) with the mystery Rover on it's tail
p

[Kevan]

On the subject of entries not in the programme I just found the negs for Donington 3rd June 1990 and not mentioned in the programme is this rather standard looking Rover....


Any ideas?


I mentioned an ex Brisca F1 stock car driver in an earlier post - I tracked him down - Brian Powles, with this 7 litre Sierra he shared with Don Manley. Again this is Donington in June 1990.
What happened to the car? Powles was a builder of big-block Chevy's in F1 so I assume one was the motive power for the Sierra.

Haven't got a clue about the Rover- it's not one of the various Rovers I remember appearing in Thundersaloons- as you say, it looks pretty standard by Thundersaloon standards- maybe an ex-Prodsaloon or Group A car?

I do remember the Powles/Manley Sierra though- think that's the first pic we've had of that one

Edited by Kevan, 13 November 2009 - 11:31.

[Kevan]

No, the white car in front of it (51) . It's always listed in programmes as a Vauxhall Astra but ran with Opel badges so should have been entered as a Kadett I guess?

I found a much better shot of the car at Donington (June 90) with the mystery Rover on it's tail
p

That's an interesting one- rwd Mk1 Astra with Manta 400 running gear, It's very similar to the Opel Kadett 400 built in very small numbers as a rallycar for Opel in South Africa (IIRC South African regs allowed one-offs without homologation)- basically an Astra/Kadett shell on a Manta floorpan, apparently built by Matter in Germany:

http://img200.images...7/kadetd007.jpg
http://img200.images.../kadettd004.jpg

Murray Grierson had one of these on UK national rallies in the late 80's, which I think, but won't swear might have been one of the original South African cars: http://i56.photobuck...c/AstraRWD9.jpg

http://img197.images.../kadettd001.jpg

Aparently theres's another still competing in Ireland

Was the Thundersaloon another ex-rallycar, or was it a UK-built replica? The bodykit looks a lot like the one on the Grierson car...

There's some discussion of the rallycars on a Vauxhall enthusiasts forum, but the thread doesn't mention the racer. There's a mention of a further car built in the UK by Safety Devices, but I've got a vague feeling this was also a rallycar- (it might be this one, 'SBU220X' rallied a couple of years ago by Steve Magson with Opel power, though I think it originally had a Chevette HS engine when first built in the 80's? http://www.ianhardy....6-2/R0E0887.jpg )

Edited by Kevan, 13 November 2009 - 11:22.

[Tim Wilkinson]

The Donington Rover is Richard Williamson, co-driven by Dave Hunter. Former grpA car, used in Thundersaloons in '89 by Barry Barnes according to RT (although I can't find any info on Barry actually competing in TS it!). Finished 8th overall, 5th in class.

The Powles Sierra and the Astra are ones I'd like to know more about. Origins and whereabouts of both are a bit sketchy, although I have a hunch that the Sierra ended up with Alistair (sp?) McMillan, and was recently broken up for parts around the various Ford forums - variously described as being ex-Quaife & Hathaway (in yellow/red livery?), then Hathaway and Rouse, then ex-Rouse.

Where did the Powles / Manley car come from, and what colours was it? Most pictures I have to go on are black and white, as that was how Rolling Thunder was printed.

[Kevan]

Thanks Tim

Any idea of the origin of the Williamson Group A Rover? A quick Google brings up a few references to him having a black Rover in the late 90's, and black SD1s always bring Dennis Leech to mind?


I've got a vague recollection of the Powles/Manley Sierra being either white or yellow- Simon's pic clearly suggests a light colour, though I could be thinking of the Brian Ashley Sierra-Rover which was yellow IIRC

Edited by Kevan, 13 November 2009 - 15:17.

[Tim Wilkinson]

Thanks Tim

Any idea of the origin of the Williamson Group A Rover? A quick Google brings up a few references to him having a black Rover in the late 90's, and black SD1s always bring Dennis Leech to mind?

A bit of research shows that Williamson did have an ex-Leech Rover. But Leech had 2 - one for 83-85 or 86 that was Martin Thomas prepared, and his '87-'88 car which was TWR-built (017) and then passed to Nick Humphrey and John Quartermaine - so likely there's a pic of that in this thread somewhere already, as both ran mod and thundersaloons.

My hunch is that if Barry Barnes did own it in '89 then it would have been the early car; Barry never seemed to have the latest machinery. And he drove / owned so many cars that it's hard to keep track of what was which, and when.


O/T - The Mk1 Astra rally car SBU220X was a project between Vauxhall, Safety Devices and George Hill. It did have a 2.6 Chevette HSR engine originally. It was featured in Retro Cars back in '05. The Kadett 400 is a strong contender for the TS car.

[PAUL S]

This old shells be up for sale a few times, more recent than the link, but I cannot find the newer one

http://bbs.rsownersc...t=thundersaloon

is it from any of the cars shown so far

[Tim Wilkinson]

That's the one that could be the Powles / Manley car. Stripped towards end of '08, up for sale as shell (on ebay) in January this year, and then again on Pistonheads in April by someone in Northern Ireland. I was tempted to snap it up, but having just had one race car built I can't really sneak in another one, in bits!

I found this link http://passionford.c...der-saloon.html saying that it used to be grey, and posting a picture. That pictures tallies with the Sierra raced by Allister McMillan (who I think is the poster escort700bhp in that link) http://www.ianhardy....g2_itemId=24210 which has many similarities to the Powles car.

So, that's where it went (maybe)..... I wonder where it came from? And was it ever anything to do with Hathaway, Rouse or Quaife as has been variously claimed?

Edited by Tim Wilkinson, 13 November 2009 - 16:46.

[Kevan]

A bit of research shows that Williamson did have an ex-Leech Rover. But Leech had 2 - one for 83-85 or 86 that was Martin Thomas prepared, and his '87-'88 car which was TWR-built (017) and then passed to Nick Humphrey and John Quartermaine - so likely there's a pic of that in this thread somewhere already, as both ran mod and thundersaloons.

My hunch is that if Barry Barnes did own it in '89 then it would have been the early car; Barry never seemed to have the latest machinery. And he drove / owned so many cars that it's hard to keep track of what was which, and when.


O/T - The Mk1 Astra rally car SBU220X was a project between Vauxhall, Safety Devices and George Hill. It did have a 2.6 Chevette HSR engine originally. It was featured in Retro Cars back in '05. The Kadett 400 is a strong contender for the TS car.

Thanks Tim. Yes, AFAIK, Leech's ex-TWR car (via a new shell or two- apparently both Dennis and Nick Humphrey re-shelled it...) that went to Nick Humphrey and John Quartermaine appears a couple of times earlier in the thread- the 'Estdale' car stuck in a gravel trap in the magazine article scan Gregor posted, and the white car I posted pics of at Brands- it's now restored to TWR/Bastos colours by the current owners. Does that suggest that Williamson might have had the earlier Leech car?

Thanks for confirming what I thought about the Safety Devices Astra- I remembered the Chevette engine, but couldn't recall the driver's name- as you say, George Hill. I'm sure I've got the Retro Cars article somewhere, and I've seen the car in action at least once in Steve Magson's ownership.
The Thundersaloon Astra does look a lot like one of the South African Kadett 400s, right down to the Opel badging....

[Kevan]

That's the one that could be the Powles / Manley car. Stripped towards end of '08, up for sale as shell (on ebay) in January this year, and then again on Pistonheads in April by someone in Northern Ireland. I was tempted to snap it up, but having just had one race car built I can't really sneak in another one, in bits!

I found this link http://passionford.c...der-saloon.html saying that it used to be grey, and posting a picture. That pictures tallies with the Sierra raced by Allister McMillan (who I think is the poster escort700bhp in that link) http://www.ianhardy....g2_itemId=24210 which has many similarities to the Powles car.

So, that's where it went (maybe)..... I wonder where it came from? And was it ever anything to do with Hathaway, Rouse or Quaife as has been variously claimed?

I see what you mean- there's a definite similarity between the Powles/Manley, McMillan and 'barn find' cars...

No idea about any Hathaway, Rouse or Quaife connections. Hathaway definitely had 2 Sierras, his original yellow BTCC car used in 1988/9, and one of the original ex-Johnson Trakstar pair which he used in 1990- shared it with Mike Smith as a Trakstar entry in the Donington 1-hour BTCC race, then took it over for a limited BTCC programme himself. He later raced it in Malaysia alongside Graham Goode's car.

Quaife's Sierra has been mentioned earlier in the thread, and I thought it became the Warwick Barnes rallycross Sierra 4x4

Edited by Kevan, 13 November 2009 - 17:22.

[RobCompton]

No, the white car in front of it (51) . It's always listed in programmes as a Vauxhall Astra but ran with Opel badges so should have been entered as a Kadett I guess?

I found a much better shot of the car at Donington (June 90) with the mystery Rover on it's tail
p

Doing some research, and it is probably because it is one of the three (or so) Kadette "C" 400's built by GMDS (probably Gerry Johnstone) as I thought they built them, not Opel South Africa, I could be wrong - as a Gp.B replacement for the Manta 400. IIRC, it was pretty well a Manta floorpan stuffed under a Kadette (Astra) bodyshell.

Of the three cars, one was built up as a circuit/race car - and I recall that it was indeed this car.

I'm sure that Gregor has more info on that bit.

Edited by RobCompton, 13 November 2009 - 19:25.

[voxadd]

Doing some research, and it is probably because it is one of the three (or so) Kadette "C" 400's built by GMDS (probably Gerry Johnstone) as I thought they built them, not Opel South Africa, I could be wrong - as a Gp.B replacement for the Manta 400. IIRC, it was pretty well a Manta floorpan stuffed under a Kadette (Astra) bodyshell.

Of the three cars, one was built up as a circuit/race car - and I recall that it was indeed this car.

I'm sure that Gregor has more info on that bit.

First of all, the Astra type Kadett is the Kadett D (the C was the rear wheel drive version, similar to the Chevette but also available with a coupe body). Dealer Sport did not build any Kadett D models as suggested. The SBU vehicle (mentioned earlier in the thread) was built by GJ for George Hill for rallying and was nothing to do with GMDS. I will have to check my records, but I think that the car that went to Murray Grierson was one of the South African cars.

Dealer Sport built the Astra 4S which is now in the Vauxhall Heritage Centre. This was intended as a replacement for the Manta 400 but in Group S. The category was immediately binned by Balestre of the FIA after Henri Toivonen's accident in Corsica. The car did one event only, the Wolverhampton & SCC 'Audi' Rally but has only come out of the VHC occasionally since. This car was based on the Kadett E (or more correctly the Astra B) and used a Manta 400 engine with a Sprintex supercharger and Xtrac 4WD transmission. There were two Kadett B version of the cars used on the Paris Dakar in Bastos livery, one of which subsequently went to John Welch for rallycross use. After he destroyed it in a race accident, another was built from a spare Matter shell. We also had an engineless replica which Welch acquired but that was scrapped recently. Mike Endean of Xtrac now has a restored Opel Paris Dakar Bastos car.

Andrew Duerden
Archivist
Vauxhall Heritage Centre

[PAUL S]

found another on ebay, or is it the shell in the earlier post now built up

http://cgi.ebay.co.u...=item48383ff19b

[Duc-Man]

Kadet/Astra rwd:
It seems that the first car was build by Matter for Opel. The car was completed in South Africa after it was shipped there for its first rally. This explains why some people think the car was south african build.
I found a site set up for the Kadett 400. Unfortunally there is no proofen history about that project.http://www.kadett.40....com/index.html
The first two cars were Opel and the third car has Vauxhall badges. In the moment is that car for sale:http://www.racedandr...-grp4-rally-car
Interresting is that this car was build by Safety Devices (wich was owned by Opel sports director Tony Fall)...

The Kadett/Astra 4x4 is an other story. Two Opel Kadett 4x4 were build that were obviously different to the Vauxhall car. They were not only LHD they also had a different engine. I don't know what was really used. Some people say they had a turbocharged 2.4 litre from the Manta. Others say it had a turbocharged 1.8 litre Zakspeed Ford engine...

[RobCompton]

Kadet/Astra rwd:
It seems that the first car was build by Matter for Opel. The car was completed in South Africa after it was shipped there for its first rally. This explains why some people think the car was south african build.
I found a site set up for the Kadett 400. Unfortunally there is no proofen history about that project.http://www.kadett.40....com/index.html
The first two cars were Opel and the third car has Vauxhall badges. In the moment is that car for sale:http://www.racedandr...-grp4-rally-car
Interresting is that this car was build by Safety Devices (wich was owned by Opel sports director Tony Fall)...

The Kadett/Astra 4x4 is an other story. Two Opel Kadett 4x4 were build that were obviously different to the Vauxhall car. They were not only LHD they also had a different engine. I don't know what was really used. Some people say they had a turbocharged 2.4 litre from the Manta. Others say it had a turbocharged 1.8 litre Zakspeed Ford engine...

Did you read Mr Duerdon's reply above?

He should know.

Hello Andrew, by the way.

So, it's pretty likely that the Simon Jackson Mk1 Astra/Kadette D "400" was a Gerry Johnstone built car.
Perhaps I should detour via Cottenham en-route for work one day and ask the man himself.

I always liked the Gp.S Astra - a shame the category was canned.

Rob.

[simonlewisbooks]

A bit of research shows that Williamson did have an ex-Leech Rover. But Leech had 2 - one for 83-85 or 86 that was Martin Thomas prepared, and his '87-'88 car which was TWR-built (017) and then passed to Nick Humphrey and John Quartermaine...

All weekend the name Nick Humphrey rattled round in my head - would this be MICK Humphrey who tarmac-rallied the Barret's sponsored 4.5 JE engined SD1 in the early 90s ?
The car was beautifully built, immaculately maintained, had all the right bits, looked the absolute mutt's wotsits and went like a bat out of hell. Generally it was faster that enything apart from a 6R4 or RS200.
We used to cast envious eyes on it every time our rather less sophisticated SD1 appeared on the same entry list at places like Colerne. If this is the ex Leech car I'll dig out some photos.

[Kevan]

All weekend the name Nick Humphrey rattled round in my head - would this be MICK Humphrey who tarmac-rallied the Barret's sponsored 4.5 JE engined SD1 in the early 90s ?
The car was beautifully built, immaculately maintained, had all the right bits, looked the absolute mutt's wotsits and went like a bat out of hell. Generally it was faster that enything apart from a 6R4 or RS200.
We used to cast envious eyes on it every time our rather less sophisticated SD1 appeared on the same entry list at places like Colerne. If this is the ex Leech car I'll dig out some photos.

Think he is/was an Alfa Romeo specialist- There used to be a website at http://www.nick-hump...co.uk/index.htm
though it no longer seems to be active, which featured a pic of the Rover, still in the original Dennis Leech black/orange colours

This was the page that mentioned the Rover
http://web.archive.o...o.uk/page 1.htm

from

http://web.archive.o...co.uk/index.htm


The Barrett's you mention, is that the old-established BL/Rover/Jaguar dealers in Canterbury? I bought a car from them in 1990/91 or so, and definitely remember them sponsoring an SD1 rallycar around that time. I never saw it in action, but it was often seen parked in the workshop at their Jaguar site in Canterbury city centre- it certainly looked a very serious piece of kit...

They were fairly involved in motorsport in the 90's/early 2000s, as they had a Subaru franchise and got involved in preparing Group N Imprezas.
http://www.rallyofke...igginslarge.gif

They also used to sponsor the Rally of Kent which was a fairly rare forest event in this part of the world (based around Ashford, used the woods around Challock and Bedgebury) until it fell victim to shortage of entries and rising Forestry Commission charges a couple of years back

http://www.rallyofkent.co.uk/

Edited by Kevan, 16 November 2009 - 14:43.

[simonlewisbooks]

That makes sense.
Yes the Barrett's set up was a Rover Group main dealership from somewhere out that way. There was a Natalie Barrett competiing in WRC a few years ago I think - I assume the daughter of the owners.
That SD1....even now the memory makes the spine tingle, it was a lovely bit of kit....

[Kevan]

That makes sense.
Yes the Barrett's set up was a Rover Group main dealership from somewhere out that way. There was a Natalie Barrett competiing in WRC a few years ago I think - I assume the daughter of the owners.
That SD1....even now the memory makes the spine tingle, it was a lovely bit of kit....

That's definitely the same company. Don't know if Natalie Barrett was any connection to them, but they did run & sponsor David Higgins on the British Championship when they were involved with Imprezas (just added a link to a pic to my post above) around 2001/2

http://www.davidhigg...on-history.php5

It's fairly off-topic to say the least, but I wouldn't mind seeing a pic of the Rover if you've got one to hand


Edited to add, Re Natalie Barrett, No connection AFAIK, she's from Cheshire http://www.nat-u-ral....uk/profile.asp

Edited by Kevan, 16 November 2009 - 13:41.

[simonlewisbooks]

I'll hunt out some shots of the Rover for you Kevan. Might take a few days

Meantime here's some Caslte Combe shots - firstly the Nicholls Capri GAA at Combe in May 1989


The Carlton in the paddock dame day - "works" teams have moved on a bit in paddock equipment since then!



The Rolling start from the much missed Old Paddock bend (now chicaned... )
With someone filming it! Wonder who for?


And from 1993 the Calibra in the paddock

[La Sarthe]

And now, going even further back in Castle Combe's history, these shots were taken in what I think was the second ever Thundersaloon meeting, on 8th April 1985. The grid was a mixture of modified saloons, more-or-less production saloons, one or two ex-rally cars, and this:



The Vince Woodman / Jonathan Buncombe Ford Capri.

Here are a few paddock shots first:



The Ian Exeter / Mike Jordan Jaguar XJS (not sure if that's the Mike Jordan?)



The Brian Chatfield / Bill Griffin BMW 320i (one of many to pass through Brian's hands). It didn't start the race, possibly due to damage following an off (note lack of front splitter), and was hurridly replaced by an ex-BTCC Ford Capri he happened to have with him.



Mr. Woodman's Capri again.



A Nissan 240RS, shared by John Bell and Barrie 'Whizzo' Williams.

Due to Castle Combe's lack of pit road at the time, the race was held in two parts, with each team-mate getting one race. The result was then aggregated. Vince Woodman won the first race, whilst other competitors included:



Pete Stevens and Neil Facey in an Escort - note the interesting line in bonnet aerodynamics



The Tony Davies / John Davies Vauxhall Firenza, very successful at the time in various special saloon-type races; and



Showing the production element that filled the grids in the early days, Vince O'Mahony and Dave Hunter in a BMW 635CSi.

The next shows the rolling start for the second race:



Whizzo looked like he had some fun



Finally, Brian Chatfield's replacement ex-BTCC Capri, which finished second in both races.



I've got a few snaps from the 1989 Castle Combe meeting as well so I'll post those tomorrow.

Peter

[Gregor Marshall]

I'm sure that Gregor has more info on that bit.

Rob - Andrew's info will be much more accurate/official than mine but as Andrew has found out recently there is the odd hole in the Vauxhall history!!
I can add my own "GM" twist to some of that -

[PAUL S]

Vince Woodmans Capri as it is today, pic also taken at Combe this year with your truly in the background lusting after it

Edited by PAUL S, 16 November 2009 - 21:53.

[Tim Wilkinson]

The SBU vehicle (mentioned earlier in the thread) was built by GJ for George Hill for rallying and was nothing to do with GMDS.

Off-topic, but confirmation of that. Found quite by accident, the magazine (29th August '85) fell open on that page while I was looking for something else.

Edited by Tim Wilkinson, 17 November 2009 - 12:42.

[Mark 1]

Hello all

I am very interested in this car, as I used to own it from 1983 to 1986, my history here :
http://www.fordescor...ledgements.html about 1/2 way down this page.
First time I have seen a pic of DKP in its Ward/Dickenson Yellow livery.
Do any of you know what happened to the car from 1987 until 2000 ?, especially the log book ?

Great thread BTW, brings back some fond memories.

Cheers
Mark Spencer




Ward/Dickinson Escort Cosworth

[Tim Wilkinson]

my infomation on the senator is the car had a heavy incident with a concrete wall, and needed major firewall foreward repairs or replacement, anyone know of the incident?

Right, finally found some info on this. It had a big impact with the tyre wall in qualifying at Russell (Snetterton round 4 1989) with Neil Facey driving. It got fixed in time for the last round of the year. It also had a big shunt at Mallory in '88, but I don't know what was damaged there.

There's a picture of the car after the Snetterton shunt in Rolling Thunder.


The yellow Escort went to Tony Paxman and he raced it with Steve King in '88 and '89 with a 2.1 BDG. It wasn't reliable in '89, and not much better in '90 when appeared at some rounds with Tommy Field / Tim Swadkin. Paxman changed to a Fiesta BDX for '91. If I find anything about where the Escort went I'll let you know.

Does anyone know if Warwick Barnes still has his Sierra, or what happened to it if he doesn't have it now? Pictures of it would be welcome too. Thanks.

Edited by Tim Wilkinson, 17 November 2009 - 18:30.

[La Sarthe]

More shots from Castle Combe, 5th August 1989.

Firstly, in the paddock we find the Paul Sherlock/Robert Bridger Escort



Brian Chatfield had three BMW 320i's present - two that were shared in the race by him with Andreas Halkiopoulos (no.65) and D (Derek?) Lawrence (no.67). He also had this example, which appears to be an ex-DRM Group 5 machine, although I think it probably ran in the local GT championship instead.



The formation lap here with the front three rows comprising Vince Woodman (Vauxhall Carlton), Mike Wilson (Mazda MX7-GA), Terry Nicholls (Ford Capri-GA), Brian Chatfield (BMW 320i), Brian Powles (Ford Sierra-Chevy) & Tony Dickenson (Opel Manta 400).



The race was won by the Woodman/Buncombe Carlton



Not without a fight with the Mike Wilson/Les Blackburn Mazda though.



Winning Class B was the Tony Dickenson/David Leslie Manta - note the Ecurie Ecosse stickers.



Meanwhile here's Mr Halkiopoulos in his BMW.

[Tim Wilkinson]

Was the Thundersaloon another ex-rallycar, or was it a UK-built replica? The bodykit looks a lot like the one on the Grierson car...

I've found the ad from the end of '89 when Belgrave Racing were selling it. "Matter shell, Manta 400 floorplan, phase 3 swindon engine, zf gearbox, big back axle" then some info on results.

That suggests to me it was one of the rally cars, shipped out to south africa. Grierson had one, as late as '88. The TS car is most likely one of the others, IMO.

[Kevan]

Does anyone know if Warwick Barnes still has his Sierra, or what happened to it if he doesn't have it now? Pictures of it would be welcome too. Thanks.

Tim, I'm sure I've got a pic of the Sierra as a rallycross car. I'll see what I can find

[Thundersports]

Tim, I'm sure I've got a pic of the Sierra as a rallycross car. I'll see what I can find

I'm sure Warwick has told me but I expect i'll speak to him today so i'll ask him about the Sierra.

[Tim Wilkinson]

Thanks.

There was a 7l V8 Sierra on the entry list for '91 for Quaife, but I don't think it ever showed up. Does anyone know anything about this car? How far development went? Was it an old shell recycled?

[Thundersports]

The Sierra went back to Quaifes who sold it on to a man in Dover who was going to strip all the good bits off it for a Escort project.

[simonlewisbooks]

Brian Chatfield's various BMWs : I think one of them was always mentioned in the commentary as being an ex Stuck/Peterson factory Gp5 car circa 1977. Brian certainly ran a number of these BMWs in the Combe Special GT series for many years progressing to M3s and eventually branching out completely to a TWR Jaguar XJR(17?) when the series shifted towards prototypes. This was an odd car as it ran a non-turbo 6R4 unit I think and was supposed to have been built for IMSA but never ran. Strikes me a 400bhp 6R4 motor would have been out of puff against the GTP opposition of the time so not sure what was going on there. It appeared in plain white, looked beautiful and was Brian's answer at Dave Appleby's Jaguar XJR10 which was ruling the roost at the time. However the team had endless run-ins with noise scrutineers and at one time strong whisperings in the paddock suggested his face no longer fitted for some reason and he was being picked-on...like I say just a whisper...
O/T Wonder what happened to the Jag ?

[Kevan]

Brian Chatfield's various BMWs : I think one of them was always mentioned in the commentary as being an ex Stuck/Peterson factory Gp5 car circa 1977. Brian certainly ran a number of these BMWs in the Combe Special GT series for many years progressing to M3s and eventually branching out completely to a TWR Jaguar XJR(17?) when the series shifted towards prototypes. This was an odd car as it ran a non-turbo 6R4 unit I think and was supposed to have been built for IMSA but never ran. Strikes me a 400bhp 6R4 motor would have been out of puff against the GTP opposition of the time so not sure what was going on there. It appeared in plain white, looked beautiful and was Brian's answer at Dave Appleby's Jaguar XJR10 which was ruling the roost at the time. However the team had endless run-ins with noise scrutineers and at one time strong whisperings in the paddock suggested his face no longer fitted for some reason and he was being picked-on...like I say just a whisper...
O/T Wonder what happened to the Jag ?

It was certainly around in the early years of historic Group C racing, around 2001/2-ish, I think driven by John Grant, in IMSA 'Bud Light' colours, though the car was never raced by TWR in this form

AFAIK XJR17 was intended for the 'second-division' prototype classes in IMSA & Group C, and possibly meant to be a customer car. As I remember, the infamous 1992 Alan Randall 'RM Motorsport' Jaguar project that failed to get off the ground after the factory and TWR pulled out of Group C at the end of '91 was supposed to run a pair of XJR14s and either one or two XJR17s in the secondary FIA Cup category of the championship- After this fell through, there was apparently a second attempt to get a Jag to Le Mans in '92, involving Swiss privateer Georg Paolin (he'd appeared at the first round or two sharing an Argo with Dave Coyne), intending I think to field a single V12 XJR12 for Paolin, Coyne and possibly Stefano 'Stingbrace' Sebastiani. I think an entry for a '17 was proposed as well, but unsurprisingly nothing came of this one either...

Not totally sure of the accuracy of the details on this link, but it seems to fit pretty much with what I remember
http://www.ultimatec...uar-XJR-17.html

Returning to topic, in the 80's/90's, Chatfield seemed to field the most bewildering assortment of cars in Modsaloons, Thundersaloons and from time to time, the BTCC. Apart from the BMWs you mentioned, I think I can remember a couple of ex-BTCC Capris (one appears in the 'early' Combe pics a few posts back), briefly a BTCC BMW635CSi, an ex-TWR Bastos Rover, ex-DTM BMW M3s and I think Mercs, the ex-Mark Hales BTCC 2-litre Starion, one of the early Andy Rouse BTCC Toyota Carinas, at least one Supertouring Nissan Primera, and the Jag XJR17 you mentioned...
There's a nice quote....
Brian Chatfield campaigned a long line of BMWs, the story going that if one broke he simply extricated another from his West Country garden.
..in this article, mentioned earlier in the thread
http://www.andrewcha...PorkBangers.htm

A bit off-topic, as it's in a Modsaloon rather than Thundersaloon race, but another Chatfield car, the Rouse Toyota at Lydden in 1994 or so...

Edited by Kevan, 18 November 2009 - 16:54.

[TonyS]

Returning to topic, in the 80's/90's, Chatfield seemed to field the most bewildering assortment of cars in Modsaloons, Thundersaloons and from time to time, the BTCC. Apart from the BMWs you mentioned, I think I can remember a couple of ex-BTCC Capris (one appears in the 'early' Combe pics a few posts back), briefly a BTCC BMW635CSi, an ex-TWR Bastos Rover, ex-DTM BMW M3s and I think Mercs, the ex-Mark Hales BTCC 2-litre Starion, one of the early Andy Rouse BTCC Toyota Carinas, at least one Supertouring Nissan Primera, and the Jag XJR17 you mentioned...
There's a nice quote....
Brian Chatfield campaigned a long line of BMWs, the story going that if one broke he simply extricated another from his West Country garden.
..in this article, mentioned earlier in the thread

Brian also had (I think) the ex-Bristow RS500 for a year in Thundersaloons, then in Formula Saloons he brought out an ex-DTM Mecedes, one of the Class 11 cars, as well as one of the earlier 190E's that was sold to Andy Rouse??? to use in the early years of Britcar!!

Not sure of the full details of the DTM mercedes class11 car, but it sounded great and went like stink when i saw it at Mallory!!

[Thundersports]

Off topic but what is Brian Chatfield up to these days he seems to have vanished off the racing radar.......

[simonlewisbooks]

And what of Formula Saloons? I confess to having lost contact with club racing over the past decade. Is it still going/been renamed ?
I looked on Google and references seem to stop around 2005 when it was mostly ex BTCC Supertouring cars by the look of it.
I rather wish I had stayed in touch as it carried on some of the spirit of Thundersloons.

[Gregor Marshall]

Formula Saloons folded in 2003 or 2004, Dad was president and unfortunately there just wasn't enough interest - real shame.

[TonyS]

And what of Formula Saloons? I confess to having lost contact with club racing over the past decade. Is it still going/been renamed ?
I looked on Google and references seem to stop around 2005 when it was mostly ex BTCC Supertouring cars by the look of it.
I rather wish I had stayed in touch as it carried on some of the spirit of Thundersloons.

Formula Saloons started in 1996 the year after Thundersaloons ended (i think it was those years), and several cars went into Formula Saloons from the start, such as the Carlton and Pontiac Trans-am of Andy Chester. Andrew Mackenzie had a nice Opel Omega ex-DTM car, as well as a few Cosworths. Andy Clarkin was the first to run a touring car, with his Cavalier, but Brian Chatfield had a couple of DTM Mercedes as i said above. Gary Woodcock started racing in the series in the late 90's in a RS500, and when he got involved with organising the series it started to pick up more cars, etc.

Some of the Thundersaloons stopped racing, but only after Ric Wood used the rebuilt Thundersaloon Calibra Mk2 (4-speed nascar box amongst other upgrades) in 1997 ( I think) to win the Championship. Gararth Lloyd won the series in his very modified Escort Cowsorth, but by now the Super TOuring cars were coming into the series more. Gary and borther Michael both had Honda Accords, and Keith Butcher an early Primera in the 1999 series. If you search youtube for 'Escort cosworth - brands hatch' you will see a race from 1999 i think.

CCC tried to help with a magazine article in each of the first few years on the series, so they liked the big banger stuff as much as they did in the 80's when Thundersaloon started up!

In 2000 even more Super Tourers were present, and i think Ric Wood had his Holden Commadore from Australia trying to mix it with the other cars. I think Rod Birley came out a few times in his Honda Thundersaloon at various points. The Woodcock brothers switched to the Primeras in 2000 with more coming out all the time. several people joined fromt he BMW championship to get an extra race to boost the grids. John Muir came down from Dunfermline in his Cosworth powered Toyota Starlet, which i think ran in Thundersaloons in class B??

By 2002 there were double figures of Touring cars running. There were still several cosworth carrs running (Brodie, Papworth Dougall), and Andrew Mckenzie came back and put a 6litre V8 in the front of the Omega he had!! Ric Still had the Holden, which worked great around Snetterton but struggled with its weight most other places. In 2003 Papworth finally got a super touring mondeo, and retired his Sapphire Cosworth, and generally even more Toureres were out.

But back to theme of ThunderSaloons. Ric Wood for 2003 brought back his Calibra, with another rebuild to get it to 6litre class limit, with a few other tweaks. He put the Holden front bumper assembly on the car, but actually had to add a couple of inches of width to it to make it fit the Calibra!! Andrew Chester returned with the Chevrolet Camero, which had appeared in British GT, but is now painted yellow. Both of these cars dominated CLass A for the big power cars. Peter Thurston brought his Ford Escort Mk1 V8 special saloon out as well to play as well as the cosworths, which worked great at Snetterton for a lap or two ont eh straights but could not keep with the big V8's or the SuperTouerers.

But from mid season 2003 the championship started to struggle with grids dropping slightly, and in 2004 only one race at Sliverstone happened before the series was canned. Some people did not like spending lots of money on the cars to keep the competative in Formula Saloons, and a couple moved to other series, like the Dutch Super Cars and LMA saloons.

And that was the end of a big banger race series in the uk. Ric still uses his Calibra sometimes in the North West sports and saloon series, some Cosworths are still around as well here and there.

There was one race only for SuperTouring cars at Snetterton, but plans were to do 2-3 race meetings a year but this never happened. Only in 2009 with the David Leslie race at silverstone did a large number of SuperTourers reappear.

I know so much as I wrote the race reports for the website from 2003, and loved the big bager stuff from the old thundersaloon days.

Hope that helps a bit!!!

Edit: Just seen your post Gregor.

Yes Gerry Marshall became president of the series, and he was at Brands Hatch in 2004 with Baby Bertha, and Bill Blydenstien (and others i think). They opened the pit lane at lunch for people to come see the cars, and it was packed!!!!!

Gerry went out and did a few laps in Baby, and wowed the crowd.

I have a photo of Gerry with baby Bertha next to its relation in Ric Woods Calibra somewhere......

Edited by TonyS, 19 November 2009 - 20:53.

[TonyS]

ermmm, how do you post a picture???? Thanks for any pointers!!

[Gregor Marshall]

Hi Tony - thanks for the post, you were a busy boy!! As for photos, if you use a hosting service like Photobucket it's easy - that's what I use.

I should be doing other things on my day off but here's one picture from the above-mentioned event:-



Copyright Peter Still Photography - there's a few from the event on his website.