748 replies to this topic

[Lee Nicolle]

American women working at Ford's Willow Run Aircraft Manufacturing Plant during WWII.














John

The first pic is a bit 'glammed' up. And those loose sleeves are probably not good for operating that equipment. Very pretty lady though!

[Greg Locock]

The first pic is a bit 'glammed' up. And those loose sleeves are probably not good for operating that equipment. Very pretty lady though!

I don't think you had to repost the photo to add a one liner. Says the man who pays for broadband and gets 4*diallup speed. Anyway, at the time if you pointed a camera at anyone they'd have dolled themselves up unless physically restrained or unaware. That's why those photos are fun.

[Pat Clarke]

Yes, wonderful!

No partridge...

Are you sure Tony? What is in the hands of the guy on the LH end of the back row?

Pat

[Tony Matthews]

At first glance, Pat, it looks like a One-eyed Trouser Snake, but I think it is a clay pipe. That, or a Ringed Plover.

[Pat Clarke]

At first glance, Pat, it looks like a One-eyed Trouser Snake, but I think it is a clay pipe. That, or a Ringed Plover.

'tis a clay pipe Tony =] and I knew that.

It was never going to be a partridge, but at first glance looked like a pigeon, so I'd just thought I'd have a little fun

Pat

[Tony Matthews]

'tis a clay pipe Tony =] and I knew that.

It was never going to be a partridge, but at first glance looked like a pigeon, so I'd just thought I'd have a little fun

Pat

I knew you knew that , Pat, and I too thought I'd have a little fun! Ringed Plovers weren't invented then, either.

[mariner]

A nice little montage of Britain's BL and the Longbridge plant in Birmingham.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...siness-17693856

There is even a shot of the Chrysler UK Ryton plant and it's Chrysler Avengers which I remember well.

Edited by mariner, 13 April 2012 - 07:24.

[Grumbles]

Thanks mariner I enjoyed that.

[Lee Nicolle]

A nice little montage of Britain's BL and the Longbridge plant in Birmingham.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...siness-17693856

There is even a shot of the Chrysler UK Ryton plant and it's Chrysler Avengers which I remember well.

And as a text book on how not to run an industry by management, labor and government. And now nobody has a job!
And is happening here in Oz at the moment. Toyota lost 350 workers today.

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 16 April 2012 - 12:13.

[Greg Locock]

And as a text book on how not to run an industry by management, labor and government. And now nobody has a job!
And is happening here in Oz at the moment. Toyota lost 350 workers today.

So are you saying that Toyota's management and labor are the same as BLs?

Why do you think that manufacturing in high cost environments should be exempt from market forces?

[Lee Nicolle]

So are you saying that Toyota's management and labor are the same as BLs?

Why do you think that manufacturing in high cost environments should be exempt from market forces?

Greg, the way they went about it was abysmal. That is universally accepted.
Job cuts are part of the landscape in the industry but Toymota have lost a lot of friends and will suffer more industrial problems in the future.Holden and Ford at least did it with restraint and consideration.And no security guards to march sacked workers out. This is after all have had goverment bailouts
The companies and workers and government should look at the UK industry which is basically nothing now.

[NTSOS]

April 14, 1931 - The 20 millionth Ford car, a Model A, is built.


April 1, 1904 - The Ford Motor Company board approves the purchase of land for
the Piquette Plant in Detroit, which becomes the site where the Model T is
designed.


On March 1, 1941, the first Ford general-purpose vehicles (jeeps) rolled off the
assembly line in Dearborn, Michigan to support the Allied effort in World War II.
Ford employees built more than 277,000 of these off-road military vehicles.


On February 4, 1922, Edsel Ford saw potential in a bankrupt luxury automaker and
purchased Lincoln for $8 million.


On January 27th, 1917, Henry Ford shipped the first of many Fordson tractors from
the Highland Park Plant in Michigan to England to help the British government
counteract the effects of an enemy blockade during World War I.


On January 23, 1950, for the second consecutive year, the Fashion Academy awarded
Ford the Gold Medal for Outstanding Automobile Design.


On July 15, 1903, Ford Motor Company made its first sale: a Model A is sold to
Dr. E. Pfennig of Chicago for $850.

[gruntguru]

Why do you think that manufacturing in high cost environments should be exempt from market forces?

Greg do you have any information on which countries do not subsidise their auto manufacturing industries?

[Greg Locock]

Greg do you have any information on which countries do not subsidise their auto manufacturing industries?

I think what you mean is, how do countries around the world subsidise or protect their auto industries, directly, indirectly, via tax relief, bailouts when they collapse, import restrictions, silly compliance issues, duty on imports, and export aid, plus the rather more complex field of workforce and social policy. No, I've never studied it. I vaguely remember that the NZ motor industry is relatively unsubsidised and unprotected, on a world scale.

A friend of mine thinks that entire profits of the 'Australian' motor industry are almost exactly equal to the government (state and federal) handouts the auto industry has received over the years.

[johnny yuma]

I think what you mean is, how do countries around the world subsidise or protect their auto industries, directly, indirectly, via tax relief, bailouts when they collapse, import restrictions, silly compliance issues, duty on imports, and export aid, plus the rather more complex field of workforce and social policy. No, I've never studied it. I vaguely remember that the NZ motor industry is relatively unsubsidised and unprotected, on a world scale.

A friend of mine thinks that entire profits of the 'Australian' motor industry are almost exactly equal to the government (state and federal) handouts the auto industry has received over the years.

Lots of discussion in Australia currently on Auto industry subsidy,seems accepted all countries which can design and build their own cars from scratch are government subsidised. Afaik NZ is not a country which does this.
National security is always trotted out as a reason to keep the auto industry and it's supply chain operating.
When WW2 broke out Australia was caught napping as far as manufacturing went...we made no Aluminium for example...and post WW2 a car industry was one part of the catch-up, made possible by giant leaps forward achieved during the war.

Edited by johnny yuma, 19 April 2012 - 06:21.

[Greg Locock]

NZ is the poster boy for what happens if you run no protection for your auto industry- it doesn't have one. The point is that the entry cost is low, and the benefits are large, for an up and coming economy. BUT, auto manufacturing is by definition a low margin operation for those same reasons, so a high cost economy will struggle to justify auto manufacturing as a significant industry.

The flipside is that it employs a lot of people doing generally useful stuff- for example, if you want high precision machining done it is much easier in Melbourne than Sydney, simply because the auto industry relies on precision machining for its tooling, whereas sewing sequins onto leather underpants doesn't.

[Tony Matthews]

whereas sewing sequins onto leather underpants doesn't.

Perhaps that's why mine bunch up so much...

[mariner]

No photos to add I'm afraid but yesterday I was looking at book on the Corvette factories ( Flint, St Louis and Bowling Green).

http://www.amazon.co...o...6154&sr=8-1

Lots of great in plant shots and some things that surprised me

- The first Corvette chassis was apparently drawn up by none other than Maurice Olley.

- GM were using vacuum bagging in the Corvette molding process way before F1 had ever heard of it ( 1954)

_ the wet GF lay up was done in a interesting way at the sub contractor - A large vertical sieve had air pulled in through it and the chopped strand matting and resin was sprayed onto
this sieve and held there by vacuum as it built up and began to set. Then the sieve was laid onto the bottom half of a two part mold which closed to cure the part in the correct shape. So the processes of lay up and molding were run seperately - never seen that before.

- What was striking was the number of fixtures used to glue the GF parts together. It shows just how far removed building 10 GF cars per hour is from the usual GF cottage industry approach

[Magoo]

Here's a whole lot of Detroit auto history in one Google map.

The plant huge plant complex bounded by the roughly rectangular boulevard is the General Motors Hamtramck aka Poletown aka BOC plant, built in the early '80s. The Volt and some Cadillacs are currently built here. Its formal street address is 2500 East Grand Boulevard, Detroit MI if you care to map it live.

I've sort of lost track of how many auto factories have existed within the boundaries of this facility, but two of the larger ones were Dodge Main (demolished in '81) at the upper right between Jos Campau (the street above the D in Dodge) and Conant. The Hupmobile plant (also demolished c1981) was at the northwest corner of the former E. Milwaukee and Mt. Elliott avenues.

Fisher Body #2 was at Clay St. and the Grand Trunk Western RR. CR Wilson, which made bodies for the very first Olds, Ford, and Cadillac cars, was just across the tracks to the west.

Here (upper left-ish) Google also indicates the location of an ancient Jewish cemetery within the property of the present GM plant, which is open to visitors two days per year or by appointment.

The yellow X at the left of the map is the location of the original Milwaukee Junction, the precise point where the Grand Trunk Western and Detroit, Grand Haven and Milwaukee Railroads intersected, and the geographical point around which the Detroit auto industry was constructed, essentially. At one time this was presumably the busiest freight center in the world... of course, nearly all the rails have long since been pulled up. http://toolserver.or...40_N_83_3_30_W_

more to follow...

Edited by Magoo, 24 May 2012 - 22:15.

[mariner]

Mago, is the GM Hamantrack address the same Grand boulevard street as the West Grand Boulevrd where Motown were based?

We went to the Motown museum and stood in Studio A ( basically an improved garage). Wonderful place if you like Motown music. The control room was tiny but the floor under the mixer desk was actually worn where so many toes had tapped to the music being recorded!

[Magoo]

Mago, is the GM Hamantrack address the same Grand boulevard street as the West Grand Boulevrd where Motown were based?

We went to the Motown museum and stood in Studio A ( basically an improved garage). Wonderful place if you like Motown music. The control room was tiny but the floor under the mixer desk was actually worn where so many toes had tapped to the music being recorded!

Yes, indeed. Grand Boulevard is a sort of U-shaped boulevard, a beltway if you will, that runs around the city at what was once the Detroit outskirts. The legs of the U are around 4 miles apart -- Ambassador Bridge to the west and the Belle Isle Bridge to the east. The open end of the U is the Detroit River. The center of the U intersects Woodward Avenue one block north of Milwaukee St, or oh, three miles or so north of the riverfront.

The boulevard west of Woodward Ave is West Grand; east of Woodward it's East Grand. So Motown Records (around West Grand and Holden) is maybe three miles west of the GM Hamtramck plant on East Grand.

Motown is the soundtrack of my life. However, there is much more music in Detroit than "just" Motown. Just one example: Before Motown there was Fortune Records. Its leading R&B artist, the man Smokey Robinson modeled his voice after, was the incomparable Nolan Strong. Lou Reed once said, "If I could sing, I'd sing like Nolan Strong."



The one-man-band blues musician Doctor Ross (aka Dr. Ross the Harmonica Boss) was also on Fortune for a time:

http://www.youtube.c...;feature=relmfu


EDIT: Circling back to the previous post, I suppose we could note that the somewhat mediocre Detroit-area '70s rock band Grand Funk Railroad was named after the aforementioned Grand Trunk Railroad.

Edited by Magoo, 25 May 2012 - 01:48.

[Magoo]

Here's an old aerial view of Hamtramck looking to the northwest to compare to the Google map above. Dodge Main is marked in yellow and the Hupp plant in red. The street running down the left side is Joseph Campau Ave. while the one down the right is Conant, which runs into Mt. Elliott. For scale, the two streets are a half-mile apart. While the Dodge Main was enormous, it covered only a small portion of the current GM facility.

Dodge Main was the epitome of the giant, multi-story, old-fashioned auto plant. It actually predated auto manufacturing for the Dodge Bros. It was built in 1910 to manufacture engines, transmissions, and other parts for Henry Ford's Model T, a few years before the Dodge Bros. went into the retail car biz themselves.

[Magoo]

On January 23, 1950, for the second consecutive year, the Fashion Academy awarded
Ford the Gold Medal for Outstanding Automobile Design.

Thanks for the great photo, John. From its distinctive interior, the facility is instantly recognizable as the EEE building, in later years Powertrain Engineering. It's right behind the Henry Ford Museum on Oakwood Blvd. In a long hall at the front of the building known as "mahogany row," Henry, Edsel, and other executives had offices there (still preserved) and right across from Henry's office there's a large bank vault (also still there) that was used for payroll when Henry went through one of his bank-hating phases.

On one of the pillars like the one shown in the center background of this photo, Henry, Edsel, and Sorensen marked their heights and then signed them with a pencil. The markings are still there and I stopped and had a look at them the last time I was there around three years ago. The building was vacated by Ford shortly after that and was tentatively donated to the Henry Ford Museum, which has been trying to figure out how to fund its repair and maintenance. Haven't heard what came of that.

Anyway, at one time everything that might pass for "engineering" or "research and development," or "design" or "styling" for that matter, within the entire Ford Motor Co. all took place within this single building. On Saturday nights Henry I would also hold his old-timey folk dancing gatherings here. One notable exception: When the 1932 V8 was being developed, Henry had the project moved out of this building and over to a shop building at Greenfield Village for a) secrecy and b) control.

[NTSOS]

Wow, thanks so much for the off the hook/comprehensive background history mac.......I do love this so!

John

[Tony Matthews]

I'm with John.

[Catalina Park]

I'd better add my appreciation too.

[Catalina Park]

Back to John's original post in this thread, I discovered some of the Australian Six photos are online at the Powerhouse Museum and they really must have been outstanding quality.

This is one from the opening post...



This is a screen grab of the Powerhouse one...



And this is a zoomed version of just one part of it...



You need to go to this link http://www.powerhous...n...&img=148438 and then go though all the different images and then zoom them, full screen and zoom again.

[Magoo]

Wow, thanks so much for the off the hook/comprehensive background history mac.......I do love this so!

John

You're more than welcome. To me it's a privilege to live in this world and have open access to these places and people and info. I know what all this history means to people because it means the same to me. To those who consider me lucky, I know I do, too. It would be wrong not to share what I learn. You'd do the same.

[mariner]

Bit of a geek question related to all these great pics.

What sort of line rate ( units produced per hour ) did these older plants run at?

In my fairly short life as a bean counter in a car maker I can remember mgt. obsessing with getting high line rates. Not always with quality I might add.

I know the St Louis Corvette line was about 10/hr for a low volume car. I would imagine Henry Ford cranked Model T's down the line in near blur.

Most plants seem to run up to 250K per year before an extra plant gets built. At 45 weeks per year thats 5,500 per week or 900 per day. On three shift operation ( the industry gold standard I think) thats about 40 per hour. I seem to recall that's about what the Munich BMW plant runs grinding out the 3 series.

I seem, however, to recall much higher line rates for Detroit in the 1970's

[munks]

Please excuse my total ignorance here, but what exactly are they doing in that Fashion Awards picture? Precursor to clay models?

[Tony Matthews]

It's a buck on which to lay the clay.

[Magoo]

Please excuse my total ignorance here, but what exactly are they doing in that Fashion Awards picture? Precursor to clay models?

Exactly -- the framework and lath serve as a foundation for the clay (actually, industrial plasticine). This wooden structure is known in the car biz as a rig or buck and is generally built to the inside dimensions of the package drawings or tape drawings plus a little depth for the clay modeler to work out the surface development. The inverted U-frame standing behind the car is called a styling bridge, and serves as a manual form of MMC for establishing all the hard points as they are developed on the model.

This buck looks to me like '49 Ford, and it appears to be a convertible, which means it may very well be getting a full clay dash and interior before it's done. Clay modeling today is not terribly different except for all the digital tools now available, and that foam is now used in building up bucks. Clay's great advantages: 1) produces a full-scale 3D model you can see and feel and 2) can be infinitely revised right up to the very last moment and beyond.

Behind this buck are clay models of the ~'49 Mercury and ~'49 Lincoln, fully finished with paint, dinoc, and metal foil to simulate real cars. (Which can be more convincing in photographs than in person.) In the row behind that folks can be seen working on 1/4 scale clays. Side note: Originally, the car that became the '49 Mercury was going to be the Ford and the Lincoln was going to be the Mercury. Then it was decided that the Merc was too big to be a Ford and a new design was bought in from outside to become the '49 Ford.

Edited by Magoo, 27 May 2012 - 20:40.

[Magoo]

Bit of a geek question related to all these great pics.

What sort of line rate ( units produced per hour ) did these older plants run at?

In my fairly short life as a bean counter in a car maker I can remember mgt. obsessing with getting high line rates. Not always with quality I might add.

I know the St Louis Corvette line was about 10/hr for a low volume car. I would imagine Henry Ford cranked Model T's down the line in near blur.

Most plants seem to run up to 250K per year before an extra plant gets built. At 45 weeks per year thats 5,500 per week or 900 per day. On three shift operation ( the industry gold standard I think) thats about 40 per hour. I seem to recall that's about what the Munich BMW plant runs grinding out the 3 series.

I seem, however, to recall much higher line rates for Detroit in the 1970's

Accurate line rates are impossible to determine from production numbers -- far too many variables. But those who have studied the issue say the Highland Park Model T plant could do a true 55-58 JPH.

[munks]

Clay modeling today is not terribly different except for all the digital tools now available, and that foam is now used in building up bucks. Clay's great advantages: 1) produces a full-scale 3D model you can see and feel and 2) can be infinitely revised right up to the very last moment and beyond.

Thanks for the rundown. With the importance of aerodynamics today, I assume they now do a 3-D scan of the clay model to run CFD on it. If they need to tweak for aero, do they continue to do so on the clay model, going back-and-forth, or ?

Speaking of which, I was behind the boxy Honda Element at a stop light the other day. A tiny sticker was placed just below the nameplate on the back that said "SCREW AERODYNAMICS".

[Terry Walker]

Crewe, 2002: This is the clay of the new Bentley Royal Limousine, and it sure fooled me until I looked in the window. It was so real I wanted to open a door. In the background our guide is discussing it with my brother and his wife. We were told that the first signs of shrinkage in the plasticine were beginning to show but damned if I could see it, no matter how carefully I looked.

Edited by Terry Walker, 29 May 2012 - 07:41.

[Magoo]

I recall that Bentley Royal Limo --was as elaborate a clay model as you will ever see. More typically, pushmobiles with that level of detail are done in fiberglass or, increasingly these days, carbon fiber. And even at that, they tend to be rather crude. Many will put you to mind of the old AMT plastic model kits of our childhood, but in 1:1 scale -- fiberglass seats and dash molded en lump with mobile home axles front and rear to make them rollers.

[Greg Locock]

With the importance of aerodynamics today, I assume they now do a 3-D scan of the clay model to run CFD on it. If they need to tweak for aero, do they continue to do so on the clay model, going back-and-forth, or ?

Absolutely, and the clay has the last word, not the aero guys. There's always something invisible you can do for aero (flaps under the car). That being said the two departments do play nice together, the aero guys give hints to the styling studio and the styling studio react quickly. One area where the aero guys do have almost absolute control is around the A pillar and door mirror, which is the main casue of wind noise. If you want to see this, drive a decent modern car in the rain. The rain streaks the side window horizontally. Now do the same in a pre 1995 (roughly) car. The rain wobbles all over the sidewindow, may even run backwards.

[Lee Nicolle]

Back to John's original post in this thread, I discovered some of the Australian Six photos are online at the Powerhouse Museum and they really must have been outstanding quality.

This is one from the opening post...



This is a screen grab of the Powerhouse one...



And this is a zoomed version of just one part of it...



You need to go to this link http://www.powerhous...n...&img=148438 and then go though all the different images and then zoom them, full screen and zoom again.

Defenitly no production line there. A real dogs breakfast of radiators, fuel tanks, a bonnet and seemingly timber framing all in the one pic. Not organised or orderly at all. the early Holden and Frost pics seem a lot more orderly.

[Magoo]

Thanks for the rundown. With the importance of aerodynamics today, I assume they now do a 3-D scan of the clay model to run CFD on it. If they need to tweak for aero, do they continue to do so on the clay model, going back-and-forth, or ?

Sure. Clay is used in the tunnel, too. Also foam board, duct tape, double-sided butyl, dum-dum, chewing gum, sections of plastic bottle cut up in clever ways, etc.

[Magoo]

I have never read one of your insider stories and thought "well that's time I'll never get back". I'd buy a book if you published one, never mind read it free on a website you create.

Okay, well the website is now live and running:

Mac's Motor City Garage

And here is the link to the website's facebook page for those who are into that sort of thing... please "like" me, pretty please...

Mac's Motor City Garage on facebook

Anyway, I know you guys are probably going to like the site. How do I know this? Because its overall concept is partly stolen from all the great subjects and discussions here. Often, while reading this forum I've thought, "You know, this message board is better than many if not most commercial automotive websites. Why doesn't someone do something like this?"

So I did.

And I encourage all you regulars here to contribute. I can't pay much if anything at first, but I can bathe you in glory.

And now I'd better close out before Desmo bounces me for this wanton and gratuitous spamming. Anyway, hope you folks like the site.

Edited by Magoo, 10 June 2012 - 16:56.

[desmo]

And now I'd better close out before Desmo bounces me for this wanton and gratuitous spamming. Anyway, hope you folks like the site.

Not at all, I'd love people to post links to their personal sites related to the forum, even if the relation is a little tenuous. Looks like you're off to a good start Mac.

[Grumbles]

Great stuff Magoo, it's on my bookmark list already. I like the clean layout of the site as well as the content, something that a lot of car guys struggle with. But I hope you haven't discounted the possibility of a book or two; there's something about a book that a website can't match and I'm sure they'd sell.

[Tony Matthews]

... there's something about a book that a website can't match ...

I feel another fact coming on - you can't hold a door open with a website.

[Grumbles]

I feel another fact coming on - you can't hold a door open with a website.

I was actually hoping for something nice for the coffee table.
You know, that wonky one with the short leg...

[Magoo]

Great stuff Magoo, it's on my bookmark list already. I like the clean layout of the site as well as the content, something that a lot of car guys struggle with. But I hope you haven't discounted the possibility of a book or two; there's something about a book that a website can't match and I'm sure they'd sell.

Thanks for the kind words. You know, I looked at a number of flash animations, image rotators, etc and one early version of the site had lots of gadgets. It was cool to look at, but in the end I decided that content is king. If it's worth reading people will read it. If not, they won't. Now this theory is put to the test. We'll see.

Also, there's been an explosion of browsers and formats-- iPhone, smartphones, tablets, gaming consoles, television monitors. The simpler you make the site, the more port-able and readable it is across a variety of platforms. KISS. Paper may be dead but its replacement is still in development. I see companies investing millions in building versions and apps for platforms that may not even exist three years from now. I don't have those millions so I think I'll just skip all that.

One piece I think you guys would like and is somewhat along the lines of this thread is the Oliver Barthel story. Interesting fellow who happened to be there as the auto industry was aborning. I'd like to share it again here before it gets buried in the feature queue.

Oliver Barthel

[Lee Nicolle]

Okay, well the website is now live and running:

Mac's Motor City Garage

And here is the link to the website's facebook page for those who are into that sort of thing... please "like" me, pretty please...

Mac's Motor City Garage on facebook

Anyway, I know you guys are probably going to like the site. How do I know this? Because its overall concept is partly stolen from all the great subjects and discussions here. Often, while reading this forum I've thought, "You know, this message board is better than many if not most commercial automotive websites. Why doesn't someone do something like this?"

So I did.

And I encourage all you regulars here to contribute. I can't pay much if anything at first, but I can bathe you in glory.

And now I'd better close out before Desmo bounces me for this wanton and gratuitous spamming. Anyway, hope you folks like the site.

Added to favorites.

[NTSOS]

Initially I would have liked a book, but this is actually a much better way of presenting interesting material.....quick, dynamic, always on the move......it's pretty much a modern way to write an endless book on stuff that I love to read.......thanks Mac!

John

[Catalina Park]

Great work Mac, I love the format and I really love the content.

[Magoo]

Great work Mac, I love the format and I really love the content.

Thanks for the support. It means a lot.

Spread the word where you can -- if you see something you enjoy, please link it to your friends via email and your favorite forums and so on. The site substantially relies on word of mouth of this kind, for by design we are not playing games with SEO, etc, or with traffic-building stunts. Once you go down that road you have no idea who is reading or why. The plan is simply to provide content that the audience wants. So far it's working. We'll see.

Here are a few of my favorite stories so far:


Henry Ford's railroad (expanded version of a post from this thread, actually)


Chrysler returning to encabulators for 2015

[munks]

Chrysler returning to encabulators for 2015

Hilarious. But I'm apparently too young to have seen these before ... why are there several versions (found on YouTube), using the same basic script but different companies and, uh, engineers?

EDIT: nevermind, I've educated myself with a little research on the history of the device ...

Edited by munks, 18 June 2012 - 14:49.